Ficar SSD18 Group Buy Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 535 Old 12-22-2011, 11:10 PM
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"Thanks for this."

+1 thanks in advance tgs and mr. ricci.

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post #182 of 535 Old 12-23-2011, 05:45 AM
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+3db from 5hz down to 3hz is not worth the other tradeoffs imho.

I could ask how that opinion was arrived at, but I've grown weary of debating the subject. I'm only looking at 20 Hz, attempting to avoid arguing the color red with a blind person.

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since i have made the t/s specs for such a design public, anybody can share the info around. the point isn't for me to get any credit or to make any profit, but rather to see such principles incorporated into some future designs.

I personally have a problem with this concept, which is why I advocate an off-the-shelf driver. Let those who stand to profit design the driver and I'll LTK if I think it's worthy of purchase.

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this is why i was thinking the ricci spec driver was heading in the right direction. eliminating the excess "protective spiders" will loosen up the suspension, lower qe and fs. i don't have fea analysis software, so i wouldn't know where to put the shorting ring(s) or if they should be made of copper or aluminum or whether a pole sleeve makes more sense.

Since I used 4 of the original Tumult, which had a -8dB roll off from 50-100 Hz and Ilkka, who bought one, tested it and e-mailed me to excitedly proclaim "The Tumult is a bad driver", I put less priority on the shorting ring and outdoor GP testing with sine waves.

Still, I'm not against the added response option, if it's implemented properly, which would need to be tested. But, truth is, if you cross at 80 Hz, which most will, the shorting ring is all but irrelevant.

The Ed Vilchur approach of loosening the suspension is a good one, but a one spider, .3 mm/N is an awfully high compliance suspension for a 30 mm driver.

Recently, I've given in to the higher distortion stiff suspension and I don't buy the low Q = higher SQ stuff.

If you look at the graph I posted, the so-called "optimized for car audio" driver sits right in the middle. Not too big, not too heavy, not too expensive, easy to fit in a dual opposed small box and lethal in multiples.

Here's the thing; I get results. No one has shown me same or better results using other supposedly better solutions. I'm always open to something new, but it's my opinion and experience that the Utopian Driver is just too big, heavy and expensive.

Bosso
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post #183 of 535 Old 12-23-2011, 09:31 AM
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Hard to argue with real world results.

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post #184 of 535 Old 12-23-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I'm well aware of the fact that audio industry folk seem to have this penchant for segregating themselves into little groups. But, I really am just shaking my head at the "optimized for car" thing in a GB thread.

For the majority here, I know you know this, but please bear with me as I state the obvious. Fs, 1W/1M and Qts specs are largely irrelevant in this app. We've been through this process as a community quite thoroughly. It's on-going, as any real process toward a goal should be, but it's certainly beyond being told the driver we want to GB isn't suited to the application.

Let's look at a currently available trio of different 18" drivers, each with different combinations of these "suited for" parameters in a 120L box. The parameter differences are explained on the graph. Please note that the driver with the highest 1W/1M spec has the lowest sensitivity at 20 Hz. Conversely, the driver with the lowest 1W/1M spec has the highest sensitivity at 20 Hz.



There are different philosophies in play. Josh (and others) prefer to control box size with a lossy Qts. I prefer to control excursion with box size while taking advantage of the higher Qts drivers free lunch at resonance. Pro sounders prefer higher 1W/1M because they need extreme SPL and don't care about much below 40 Hz.

All 3 of them have been used in multi-driver systems for HT by happy end users.

I posted this before but it seems to have been overlooked. This is the SSD-15, naked, naked with a notch filter to lessen the Le roll off and finally with one specific L/T curve shaping the input signal. (these are actual measurements)



What's the final Q? Anything I want it to be. What's the final F3? Anything I want it to be. It doesn't matter what the 1W/1M, Qts or Fs of the driver is when the application is a multi-driver sealed L/T sub.

Yes, you can debate, and we have debated nuances, preferences and tradeoffs of the various combinations of parameters in this and every other alignment. In my case, I've just built the damned things, experimented with many signal shapes and amplifiers, measured the results in-room and listened to the results with the most demanding source material on earth. I get state of the art results. Others interested in duplicating my results without having to buy the LMS Ultra or wait forever for the latest "umunna" driver have pinged me and here we are.

For this app, all that's needed is a quality overhung 15" or 18" with 20-30 mm X-max from a supplier we think will still be in business next week. Josh, and others, prefer a higher crossover, so we'd like to know what the he!! the FR is with the shorting ring. "a little bit higher" is not a proper answer.

I'm struggling at this point to understand how a simple Fi GB thread turns into someone telling me what will happen if I use the driver I prefer in my HT, especially after I already have done it and posted the results above. I've also elsewhere posted the FR at the LP and speclab caps of movie scenes mic'd at the LP. I'm not showing interest, I'm showing the results.

BTW, If DAF means what I think it means, wow... just wow.

This thread is entitled "Ficar SSD-18 Group Buy Thread". Since the SSD doesn't have the heat ring option available, the Fi Q was quickly mentioned as well. Many people have also asked me about 15", so the dust quickly settled around the SSD and Q with heat ring option, in 15" and 18" sizes. I think off-the-shelf at a discount for quantity is what was proposed originally and I don't see a need to alter the driver in some insignificant way. Since I'm interested in 4-Q-15 with heat ring, I'd like to see the thread get back on track. Otherwise, someone throw in the towel and LMK so I can get on with my purchase and build.

If someone wants the Xcon or wishes to explore a commission of some custom driver instead, they should start a separate thread.

Bosso

I was under the impression the closure size was somewhat concrete, as was a possible amplifier to mate with the project. If I am mis-lead, my mistake.

I don't think anyone has told you what is going to happen with the driver you prefer. Keep in mind, I was asked to come into this topic because of the injection of our driver into the conversation.

DAF, as I said, is needed and dictated by the masses in car audio as an industry now with power being so cheap with inferior quality amplifiers. But again, like I said, that is not an issue in home audio that I can tell. I am sorry Bosso, I appreciate your passion and attention to detail, but your attitude and tone has not been very welcoming at all, when I did not need to come over until incorrect generalizations were posted.

Aaron Clinton ~ SSAudio Inc.
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post #185 of 535 Old 12-23-2011, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Other than the low Q, which it is not, I follow your post, and I appreciate the expense and delivery to Josh, if he's up to the quick once-over in a timely fashion. It's a very nice gesture. Also, I must have missed it, but you say the mini-billboard can be removed? That part is a must for me.

Also, only because the US flag and made in USA is a prominent feature on the driver itself, can we verify that none of the parts are foreign, or is the sticker just implying the steel is made in USA?

Bosso

The only thing on the Xcon 18 that is NOT USA sourced is the ferrite, there is no getting around that, unless we absolutely spike our prices to insulting levels. Which would essentially put our brand in the grave. We would not put a label on something that only a single piece was sourced from the location it states.

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post #186 of 535 Old 12-23-2011, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Clinton View Post

The only thing on the Xcon 18 that is NOT USA sourced is the ferrite, there is no getting around that, unless we absolutely spike our prices to insulting levels. Which would essentially put our brand in the grave. We would not put a label on something that only a single piece was sourced from the location it states.

Thanks for clearing that up Aaron.

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post #187 of 535 Old 12-23-2011, 05:29 PM
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"I could ask how that opinion was arrived at, but I've grown weary of debating the subject."

i meant the differential costs associated with making the driver perform at that level, not that any frequency isn't "worthy" of being reproduced. even in a sealed enclosure cone motion begins to "blow up" below 5hz and so do costs.

"I personally have a problem with this concept, which is why I advocate an off-the-shelf driver. Let those who stand to profit design the driver and I'll LTK if I think it's worthy of purchase."

why? it helps to define the product and worked really well for the seos(r) thread. it is just more specific than saying, "i'd like something that works in 4 cubes." since this is for home, it doesn't need to be two cubes and most folks would rather it not be optimized to work in eight cubes per driver, so i kicked out the idea of 4. also, if you aren't comfortable with 0.3mm/n, then you can go down to about 0.225 mm/n holding the other physical parameters the same and get pretty much the exact same frequency response as the other one. that is probably what i would suggest anyways. home theater subs don't require spl competition power handling as some car subs do. for this application ~2000w handling would allow the driver to cruise all day long without power compression at 1000 watts.

such a design would work nicely for a guy who wanted two enclosures and a cheap amp all the up to guys who would use eight drivers and a king kong amp.
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post #188 of 535 Old 12-27-2011, 09:44 AM
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Intertesting how it's no big deal here about ordering the 5 spidered subs with less spiders for us like it is no thing, but over on my thread asking effects of adding 4 more spiders it's completely sub changing, changing all parameters, and very unpredictable.

Sort of reminds me of the 1st time I did a recone a few years back... I ordered custom dual 2 ohm coils for an IB3. IB3s come standard with a single 2 ohm coil, 2 layer, or standard 4 ohm coil, 4 layer. When I went with dual 2 ohm it was then 4 layer... simply 1 2ohm coil over the other parallel vs a single 4 layer coil in series. So this made for double the coil mass from a single 2, as well as double the tinsel slap pads and double the tinsel leads...adding a touch of MMs and (L) in the gap. More thermal handling with double the copper mass and 1/2 as much current, being split into 2 coils? I asked all over all sorts of forums how much change should I expect and it was an emphatic "not enough to matter".

As I proceeded with the recone, I decided to invert the dustcap (against Nick of Fi's recommendations...thats another story) and realizing the back side of the dustcaps aren't painted. So I had to run to a hobby store and paint match as best I could. It didnt. So I had to paint the entire cone or deal with a glossy shiny blacker dustcap in high contrast to the dull cone. Suddenly people were FURIOUS at how I DARED to DEFY Fi and all their hrs of R&D by adding mass and ridgidity to the cone (probably less mass than the added tinsel leads and slap pads, let alone 2nd coil) and I literally received HATE mail.

Then came the issue of Nick saying the inverted dust cap would make noise, and the crowds followed him with more disgust at my having the nerve to ignore him and do it anyway.

Recone turned out awesome BTW... almost reconed the last 4 IB3s the same way.
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post #189 of 535 Old 12-27-2011, 09:55 AM
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Cool story, brah.



I won't speak for others but I knew that if we changed the spider configuration there would be a change in T/S. Ricci mentions that we should have one optimized for HT, so to say. Your thread was about what the end result of adding more spiders would be. A very general question with very specific answers. In your case, "who knows?" in this case... "who knows".

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post #190 of 535 Old 12-27-2011, 11:44 AM
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Right.

If you add or remove spiders it is going to have some effect on almost every parameter except for SD, RE, LE, etc...Same deal with going with a high qts option, inductance ring, or cooling. We can guess at what the effect is but it's just a guess. We can assume that the factory parameters listed are with 2 spiders, no cooling, normal qts. That should give the highest motor force and efficiency which looks best on paper. That's my assumption anyway.

I just ordered an 18" Q D2 with normal 2 spiders, high qts, inductance ring, motor cooling and normal leads. This should give the lowest FS and inductance. IOW the configuration for the most linear top end but the high qts option lowers motor strength as does the cooling option so I don't know where we end up after that. Guess we will find out. Fi says that copper coils are not available on the Q series.
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post #191 of 535 Old 12-27-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I just ordered an 18" Q D2 with normal 2 spiders, high qts, inductance ring, motor cooling and normal leads. This should give the lowest FS and inductance. IOW the configuration for the most linear top end but the high qts option lowers motor strength as does the cooling option so I don't know where we end up after that. Guess we will find out. Fi says that copper coils are not available on the Q series.

Very interested to hear you thoughts on the custom Q, Josh. Cheers to you for taking the plunge!

*insert beer of your choice here*

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post #192 of 535 Old 12-27-2011, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by scott simonian View Post

cool story, brah.

:d

i won't speak for others but i knew that if we changed the spider configuration there would be a change in t/s. Ricci mentions that we should have one optimized for ht, so to say. Your thread was about what the end result of adding more spiders would be. A very general question with very specific answers. In your case, "who knows?" in this case... "who knows".

:-p
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post #193 of 535 Old 01-03-2012, 09:13 AM
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Bump!

So, any progress on this group buy??
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post #194 of 535 Old 01-03-2012, 11:13 AM
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Bump!

So, any progress on this group buy??

Waiting to get my Xcon's in and Ricci ordered a Q18 so when they come in they will get tested so hopefully the nit picking can cease and people can either go forward with the group buy or not. The pricing to my knowledge still stands if people want to get on board after all 3 drivers are tested (SSD, Xcon, Q).
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post #195 of 535 Old 01-06-2012, 05:02 PM
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Waiting to get my Xcon's in and Ricci ordered a Q18 so when they come in they will get tested so hopefully the nit picking can cease and people can either go forward with the group buy or not. The pricing to my knowledge still stands if people want to get on board after all 3 drivers are tested (SSD, Xcon, Q).

tgse3, so you went ahead and ordered multiples or just one of the xcons? If multiples are you are getting them going withing the next two weeks? as Im about to pull the trigger at least on 4 (of one of the options) and run them off my epx4000 until i get the FP in. Im still leaning closer to the Q, just love the look and the knowing that it has been tested in a multiple setup before makes it even more enticing.

Wow I had to go back and typo that real quick, guess thats what two, two hour layovers and two bars and miller lite will do to you... cant wait to be home

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


tgse3, so you went ahead and ordered multiples or just one of the xcons? If multiples are you are getting them going withing the next two weeks? as Im about to pull the trigger at least on 4 (of one of the options) and run them off my epx4000 until i get the FP in. Im still leaning closer to the Q, just love the look and the knowing that it has been tested in a multiple setup before makes it even more enticing.

Wow I had to go back and typo that real quick, guess thats what two, two hour layovers and two bars and miller lite will do to you... cant wait to be home

Miller lite... Ohhhh nooooooooooooo

You need to step up to a grown up beer.

Lol

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post #197 of 535 Old 01-11-2012, 10:00 AM
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Miller lite... Ohhhh nooooooooooooo

You need to step up to a grown up beer.

Lol

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I drink many local craft beers as well. Love a good IPA, but ML is the goto beer for mass consumption...

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post #198 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 03:13 PM
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I have the Q18. It just showed up this afternoon. It was coming out of the bottom of the box. I thought for sure it would be damaged but it seems to be ok as long as the motor didn't shift or something. Let's just say that the packaging does not inspire confidence. More later.
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post #199 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I have the Q18. It just showed up this afternoon. It was coming out of the bottom of the box. I thought for sure it would be damaged but it seems to be ok as long as the motor didn't shift or something. Let's just say that the packaging does not inspire confidence. More later.

did UPS threw it over the fence?

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post #200 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


You shut your mouth when you're talkin' to me!

I drink many local craft beers as well. Love a good IPA, but ML is the goto beer for mass consumption...

I think you need to come drink with some Canadians so we can ween you off that moose piss.



On a side note craft/microbrews are some of my favorite things I'm an IPA fan too. Though my beer of choice has become the grandville island winter ale.

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Let's see some pics of the packaging

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I remember when I got my subs from Fi and I was very amazed that the driver made the trip. Four pieces of foam for the top side walls of the box and a cardboard piece with foam in it for magnet protection. And the driver in a clear plastic bag. That was it. It made it here to Australia fine.

And they did not know the driver was going overseas either. The local dealer who gets them stated that they usually come in a crated box. I was not going to pay the dealer an extra 120 to buy from him.

Cant wait to hear what this can do in Ricci's hands.
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post #202 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 05:06 PM
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Yeah that's exactly what I got. Tiny little cardboard internal box for the motor which promptly came apart so the motor went where ever it wanted. 4 little pieces of foam, a bag and some cardboard. Crazy though the driver is in better shape than many others I've received. Not even a chip in the ferrite.

Pics in a while...
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post #203 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 05:34 PM
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if somebody talks to the fi guys, the spec on the q18 cms is off. it is listed as 0.73 mm/N. it should read 0.073 mm/N. actually, it appears that cms for all the q's is off by one place.

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post #204 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 06:59 PM
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7 pages, and we ALMOST have some results...I, for one, must say that there is something to be said for the XCON being MADE IN AMERICA. This industry is one of those that is a niche that isn't ever going to be "mainstream" and big enough for some of these people to get rich doing it. For that reason, if they are even CLOSE to one another, I like the XCON right now for my money, and the fact that we have gotten at least something from Aaron over it is very nice. Just my thoughts.
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post #205 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 07:03 PM
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fi is made in america as well

Two alpine sws-15d2 drivers for sale $150
erich kit + titanic MK3 $200

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post #206 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Yeah that's exactly what I got. Tiny little cardboard internal box for the motor which promptly came apart so the motor went where ever it wanted. 4 little pieces of foam, a bag and some cardboard. Crazy though the driver is in better shape than many others I've received. Not even a chip in the ferrite.

Pics in a while...

Well I see where I rank on the priority list. I ordered my Xcons before you and they haven't shipped yet. Oh well the weather is garbage here now anyway to test.
The packaging on these things is minimalist to say the least. I still have the SSD boxes, and they were shipped once to the original purchaser and then me. Made it safely somehow as well.
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post #207 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I have the Q18. It just showed up this afternoon. It was coming out of the bottom of the box. I thought for sure it would be damaged but it seems to be ok as long as the motor didn't shift or something. Let's just say that the packaging does not inspire confidence. More later.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

did UPS threw it over the fence?


Lol! Wasn't that FedEx though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Yeah that's exactly what I got. Tiny little cardboard internal box for the motor which promptly came apart so the motor went where ever it wanted. 4 little pieces of foam, a bag and some cardboard. Crazy though the driver is in better shape than many others I've received. Not even a chip in the ferrite.

Pics in a while...

Cool. Look forward to those and your opinion of the Q. Just to clear this up, is this a bare bones basic Q18 or was there any extra options done?

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post #208 of 535 Old 01-12-2012, 10:35 PM
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I just ordered an 18" Q D2 with normal 2 spiders, high qts, inductance ring, motor cooling and normal leads. This should give the lowest FS and inductance. "

Sh#!, looks like all those options cost something now... ugh. $50 from what i can gather

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post #209 of 535 Old 01-13-2012, 11:07 AM
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Alrighty....

Yes. The options cost extra now. The driver that I bought was basically $390 to my door. The options that you now have to pay for would add another $50. So $440. Shipping is $54 in the US I gather.

Packaging....Not a lot there. The driver is fine though so that says something.

Attachment 233991





This driver has the normal 2 spiders, high qts option, inductance ring option, motor cooling option and normal leads. This should give the lowest FS and inductance.

Also I asked Fi about a blank dustcap which I was told that they do not allow anything out the door without a logo (unless they are OEM for you I guess.). I was told that they could do a black logo though and they did. I was going to go with the brushed nickel as my preference out of the usual ones. I'm glad they offered the black though. I like it better.





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post #210 of 535 Old 01-13-2012, 11:15 AM
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Black logo looks really cool!!

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