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post #1 of 95 Old 12-16-2011, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Some of you on this forum think of me as a 'bit of a nutter' when I post my ideas on loudspeaker designs, so let me offer up proof that you just might be right! A few months ago I bought a pair of Autotech IWATA 300s from Erich in his original Group Buy.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/iwata300.html.

I love those horns! The sound is BIG, dynamic and not at all 'horn like'. I originally matched my IWATAs and JBL 2446 CDs to unused JBL Cinema cabinets, each loaded with a single 2035 woofer. It worked well. However I knew that the mid bass could be improved upon. It just didn't have the 'live punch' that I was looking for.

Recently I stumbled upon some empty and aging Altec A7 828 cabinets on EBay. They were plywood and well built but clearly needed a little TLC. They were just a couple hours away so I bought'em! And then spent the next few weekends in my garage tweaking, filling and painting them. Add in a new shiny pair of 416-8C drivers from Great Plains Audio and I was ready for business. Last week I rolled them into the house.

My wife did wince when she saw how large they were as she helped me nudge them thru the door but was kind enough to say little.









And they are ASTOUNDING! I have them configured using active crossover at approx 700Hz. I used a Datasat AP20\\ RS20i Audio Processor for the active xover to transition from the 828 box to the IWATA horns. I set Bass Management to extend the cabs at 48kHz using a pair of JBL Cinema 4645 subwoofers. I then applied Dirac Live room optmization. When I was done with the 828\\ IWATA\\ 4645 combination I had a reference level system that worked well from 26Hz to 18kHz with huge dynamics and headroom to spare. Now that my wife has heard them, even she likes them! I'm keeping them.
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post #2 of 95 Old 12-16-2011, 01:31 PM
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They look amazing!
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post #3 of 95 Old 12-16-2011, 02:24 PM
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Wicked setup!

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #4 of 95 Old 12-16-2011, 02:51 PM
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You know you're crazy when your living room speakers need caster wheels on the bottom!!!

With all the big stuff in that room, it's difficult to grasp how large that stuff is.

Guys, that Iwata itself is about 24" wide! Maybe slightly larger. :O

It's a shame the Iwata-300 went up in price a bit. After seeing them set up, I wish I would have bought a pair at the older prices.
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post #5 of 95 Old 12-16-2011, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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The industrial castor wheels were a requirement. The 'big red hand cart' just wasn't working out. Those cabs are bigger than some refrigerators! Even at the higher price I highly recommend the IWATA horns. They truly are special.

Thanks again Erich for all of the hard work that you've put into the Autotech Group Buy. You make it all so convenient!
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post #6 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 10:31 AM
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Very cool setup. How did you arrive at the 700hz crossover point? What slopes are you using? I don't know much about the DataSat stuff but I know it is top notch.

You might try a crossover point closer to 500-600hz. The Iwata and 2446 should be good that low. Take advantage of that 2" throat and 24" wide horn.
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post #7 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Very cool setup. How did you arrive at the 700hz crossover point? What slopes are you using? I don't know much about the DataSat stuff but I know it is top notch.

You might try a crossover point closer to 500-600hz. The Iwata and 2446 should be good that low. Take advantage of that 2" throat and 24" wide horn.

The GPA 416-8C is crossed at a 6dB per octave rate at 820Hz. The JBL 2446 is set at 24 dB per octave at 620Hz. That is why I identified 700Hz as an approximate number bypassing those details. I found these setpoints by empirically measuring in the room 2 meters on axis and 1 meter at 45 degrees. Those setting offered up the smoothest transition between drivers both on and off axis. Dirac Live took care of the rest.
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post #8 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 04:07 PM
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you should post those over at the heritage site.

very nice work. they really are hideous :-) but i'm sure the sound is off the charts nice. isn't it amazing that something created 80 years ago outperforms a lot of what folks have today?

you like the 416-8c *that* much more than the 2035? the 2035 is no poser.

do you have a frequency sweep?

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post #9 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you should post those over at the heritage site.

very nice work. they really are hideous :-) but i'm sure the sound is off the charts nice. isn't it amazing that something created 80 years ago outperforms a lot of what folks have today?

you like the 416-8c *that* much more than the 2035? the 2035 is no poser.

do you have a frequency sweep?

You may think they are ugly but I am convinced that once you heard them their looks would grow on you!

I agree with you. I've always liked the sound of JBL 2035s, but the GPA 416-8Cs in these aging 828 cabs is a definite step up. Their low distortion and dynamic edge is clearly audible. What's old is new again!

The first PIC is what the raw right channel looked like (very similar to the left) without EQ, some 12 feet into the listening space. This is the averaged output over 14 samples along a couch that is the listening position. This is just for the Altec cab and IWATA horn on top. Bass Management and subwoofers are not on. Notice that they are not as 'bass shy' as are most VOTT systems. The red line is the 'target response' that I have told Dirac Live to shoot for.



The second PIC is what Dirac Live came up with. I have confirmed that the curve described in the 'After' PIC was realized using an RTA at my favorite listening position. My listening room sounds best with a slight 'presence bump'. The subtle notch adds a sense of depth and detail to the bottom end.
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post #10 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 06:47 PM
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"...the GPA 416-8Cs in these aging 828 cabs is a definite step up. Their low distortion and dynamic edge is clearly audible. What's old is new again!"

that's awesome.

i've heard a few folks who have experience comment that the 416-8c is among the best mid-bass drivers that they have ever heard.

what is the dirac live? i've heard of it in passing, but never took a close look. is it a stand alone component or is it included along with something else? sometimes i wonder if all those eq points are really necessary. your raw response looks really good and with a little tone boost in the treble, i'd think most would call it good.

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post #11 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 06:53 PM
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Holy crap...I'm envious of that RS20 big time. It really makes things easy, huh? How much is a RS20?

I don't think your setup looks hideous...more unique.
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post #12 of 95 Old 12-17-2011, 07:46 PM
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this explains much...

"Hello all,

Some 2 plus years ago when the AP20 team at Datasat Digital Entertainment (the old DTS Cinema division) started the development cycle we spent a lot of time evaluating room optimization and correction technologies. Most were either too hard to use or simply not effective enough to merit their use. The exception to that was Dirac Live by Dirac Research. However at that point Dirac Live had not been used in commercial products other than automobiles. As result Dirac Research agreed to grow their product to support rooms as large as the biggest commercial Cinema Theaters. Since that time the AP20 and Dirac Live has been successfully applied to huge rooms containing thousands of seats all over the world. The Dirac Live algorithm in its current form is self scaling. It optimizes rooms the size a hotel suite (ie: our demo at the Flamingo during CES week) as well as it does a major commercial Cinema space.

The Dirac Live algorithm requires a lot of DSP horsepower to run, much more than other room correction products. The AP20 contains 6 'state of the art' 400 mHz DSPs, two of which are dedicated to running Dirac Live. Other room correction products share a DSP with Dolby & DTS decoders. I say this not to knock their products but to simply state that they cannot compare with Dirac Live as they simply do not have the DSP resources allocated to them.

The AP20 is available to purchase today. Street price is $6,500. More information can be found by Googling 'Datasat Digital Entertainment AP20' I invite you to contact me should you be interested in acquiring one.

The DL2 is my product since leaving the employ of DDE. It is an 8 channel device and is the same Dirac Live technology as is in the AP20 but put in a consumer package. The DL2 will be ready to ship in the next 60 days or so. Street price will be $2,300. That price includes all software needed to measure and configure the product. The supplied software from Dirac Research for both the AP20 and the DL2 assumes the user already has a measurement microphone and USB/ ASIO mic preamp to configure. If you don't have them these items can be acquired from a variety of sources. The setup process is pretty simple. You simply take measurements at and near your preferred listening positions using the supplied software and stimulus. Once you have collected several (usually 12 or more depending upon room size) you let the computer crunch away at the data using the patented Dirac Live algorithm. Once finished you simply push the results into the AP20 or DL2 processor. The AP20 uses a wireless connection and the DL2 USB. And that's it! Should you want to make a change the Dirac Live software includes a graphical editor that allows you to alter the resulting filters should you want to 'pull up the bass' or 'add a presence bump' to the center channel. You have complete control of what gets sent to the processor.

The DL2 really has very little in common with the now defunct Audyssey product other than the chassis being from the same OEM.

As we get closer to the release of the DL2 the website 'dl2.biz' will go live and much more information and support will be posted there for both the AP20, DL2 and follow on products that are now in development.

I hope this answers your questions. I will monitor this thread should anyone have something more specific that I can answer.

Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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post #13 of 95 Old 12-18-2011, 08:47 AM
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Ah...so Carl Huff is the DataSat guy. I thought I recognized the name. I've heard $12k for the consumer RS20i. I can't justify spending that much on a pre/pro as fun as it would be to have, I'm just too cheap for that.
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post #14 of 95 Old 12-18-2011, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, Carl is the 'Datasat guy' ...

The new RS20i (an AP20 optimized and tweaked for 'High Home Theater') delivers early next year. For those that don't need a 'swiss army knife processor' such as is the RS20i, there will be the DL2. The DL2 is a premium Dirac Live runtime engine. The DL2 is from KAD Products (my company). I hope to begin shipping the DL2 at roughly the same time as the RS20i.

I invite you to check out this thread by Dan Francis: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1366849
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post #15 of 95 Old 12-18-2011, 10:48 AM
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And there's the DEQXs for less still.
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post #16 of 95 Old 12-18-2011, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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And there's the DEQXs for less still.

No, not quite.

The DEQX is a stereo (ie: 2 channel) device. The DL2 is 8 channels. If Two channel is your thing then the DEQX is a real value. But if your interests extend to home theater ...
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post #17 of 95 Old 12-19-2011, 12:23 AM
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What kind of price will the DL2 be?(MSRP)

I dont think I can afford anything like this but I do like to know what is out there.
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post #18 of 95 Old 12-19-2011, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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What kind of price will the DL2 be? ...(MSRP)
.

The DL2 will be $2300 MSRP and that price will include the Dirac Live software needed to create the filters.
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post #19 of 95 Old 12-20-2011, 02:36 AM
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In the words of some local TV characters and in reference to the speakers - 'they're nice, they're different, they're unusual' - and I am sure they sound great.
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post #20 of 95 Old 12-30-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The DL2 will be $2300 MSRP and that price will include the Dirac Live software needed to create the filters.

For reference, adding Dirac Live to the AP20 SSP (the commercial cinema version) is a $2K option (the consumer version RS20i already includes it), that makes the DL2 a pretty decent bargain. Carl, if I remember correctly one can configure the DL2 to operate in stereo so that the unit becomes a x-over with 4 channels per side, plus allowing for the use of Dirac Live. If the latter is the case, then the DL2 is an even greater bargain.

I should note that there is a caveat. For those who don't like multiple digital to analog-analog to digital conversions, this may not be an option (even if it leads to better sound), since (I think) the DL2 has analog inputs only (it then converts the signal to digital, does the processing and x-over if necessary, and converts back to analog).

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post #21 of 95 Old 12-30-2011, 08:22 PM
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Carl looks like a perfect candidate for an AT screen setup
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post #22 of 95 Old 12-31-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

No, not quite.

The DEQX is a stereo (ie: 2 channel) device. The DL2 is 8 channels. If Two channel is your thing then the DEQX is a real value. But if your interests extend to home theater ...
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Seems I don't get most notifications, as I've just seen this. I was mainly discussing the xover and partially room EQ aspects WRT DEQX. Does the DL2 use FIR for the xover sections or generic IIR type filtering? Do you have anything on the Dirac room correction that shows it's better in any sort of technical manner? I'm interested but have seen nothing so far from some googling that gives anything empirical.
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post #23 of 95 Old 12-31-2011, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Seems I don't get most notifications, as I've just seen this. I was mainly discussing the xover and partially room EQ aspects WRT DEQX. Does the DL2 use FIR for the xover sections or generic IIR type filtering? Do you have anything on the Dirac room correction that shows it's better in any sort of technical manner? I'm interested but have seen nothing so far from some googling that gives anything empirical.

Actually Raul was describing the DL3 rather than the DL2. The DL2 is 8 channels of Dirac Live runtime, unbalanced analog in and out. The DL3 adds active crossovers and bass management and another 4 outputs, making the DL3 8 inputs by 12 outputs and is balanced analog in and out. The DL3 adds a multi channel PCM digital input as well.

The xover section of the DL3 is realized using IIR. As to Dirac Live being better than other room optimization technologies? I am really slow to throw mud. I have my opinions but am slow to share them. Instead I invite you to listen to Dirac Live and compare for yourself. I am confident that you will walk away with a strong opinion of your own.

Dan Francis is doing an excellent job of comparing Driac Live to Trinnov in this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1366849
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post #24 of 95 Old 12-31-2011, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The xover section of the DL3 is realized using IIR. As to Dirac Live being better than other room optimization technologies? I am really slow to throw mud. I have my opinions but am slow to share them. Instead I invite you to listen to Dirac Live and compare for yourself. I am confident that you will walk away with a strong opinion of your own.

Thanks. I was not asking you to slag competitor's implementations, but rather looking for reasons why your technology is better from a more objective/technical POV.

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Dan Francis is doing an excellent job of comparing Driac Live to Trinnov in this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1366849
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I've read through most of that, but after 25+ years in audio, someone else's subjective descriptions don't mean much to me unless I have met the person and listened to stuff with them and discussed it to get a reference on what they're actually talking about.

Room correction in a multi channel would be very hard to A/B to my satisfaction unless I could switch it live and have it set with levels matched etc. That's why I was asking, to see whether the product might interest me some more in the future (have a few other things to pay for first).
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post #25 of 95 Old 12-31-2011, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

...Room correction in a multi channel would be very hard to A/B to my satisfaction unless I could switch it live and have it set with levels matched etc. That's why I was asking, to see whether the product might interest me some more in the future (have a few other things to pay for first).

I understand. However I am convinced that room optimization that is closely integrated with efficient plate amps that include digital crossovers is the next real step in the evolution of products for the discerning audiophile, keeping things digital from the source all of the way to the loudspeaker boxes.

There are a few AES papers floating about written by the Dirac Live staff that do a pretty good job describing the technology.
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post #26 of 95 Old 12-31-2011, 11:30 PM
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Carl.....so is the DL2 used for 7 channels or the DL3?
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post #27 of 95 Old 01-01-2012, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Carl.....so is the DL2 used for 7 channels or the DL3?

Both the DL2 and DL3 are 8 channel devices. The DL2 is 8 channels of Dirac Live runtime.

The DL3 is 8 channels as well but adds 4 additional outputs that are assignable as active crossover and/or bass managed subwoofer channels.
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post #28 of 95 Old 01-05-2012, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

The DL2 will be $2300 MSRP and that price will include the Dirac Live software needed to create the filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

[quoting Carl] The DL2 will be ready to ship in the next 60 days or so. Street price will be $2,300.

Either you drive a hard bargain, or one of those prices is incorrect...

What's the current ETA?

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post #29 of 95 Old 01-05-2012, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Noah,

Since the DL2 will only be available eCommerce (ie: no dealers or distributors) the MSRP and 'street price' are the same. We are hoping to make the DL2 available within 60 days of Dirac research releasing their software that gens the filters and that should happen (hopefully ...) in the next 45 to 60 days.
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post #30 of 95 Old 01-05-2012, 11:19 PM
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I see, thanks, Carl

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