The Crawler, A Floor joist horn build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been lurking here for a couple months looking for a sub to build over Christmas break. Next thing I know I am wanting a bass horn. Then I see Marks CSS trio12 horn build and convince myself that I could that I could unfold one or two into the floor joist under my living room. A horn nut at work started encouraging me and said his friend who is a professional horn builder suggests that if I am going to build a horn under my house I should dump the biggest mouth I can right under the couch. Hornresp here I come......
Attachment 233598
Attachment 233599
That looks pretty good so First I cut the hole in the floor
Attachment 233606
Had a little digging to do, but am on my way
Attachment 233607
Attachment 233608

On to the next post.
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post #2 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 06:17 PM
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O.o cool build!!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #3 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 06:22 PM
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Fantastic!

I'm tuned in. Any and all details would be great.

Good luck, and welcome

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------------------------------------
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post #4 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Attachment 233609
The first fold
Attachment 233610
Attachment 233611
working toward the throat
Attachment 233613
and the fold between
Attachment 233612
On to the next post
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post #5 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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The throat
Attachment 233614

A test fit of the throat chamber
Attachment 233615

The motor box in place
Attachment 233616

The inside of the back panel
Attachment 233617

15 sheets of OSB and 54 tubes of PL premium later she's
Ready to play
Attachment 233618
I started with the drivers in series because I couldn't find a splitter
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post #6 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Gotta love the 20 year old equipment along with the dayton DTA-100 "sub amp"Attachment 233621 and the "400 watt" Lanzar speakers

With only 10 hours of play, this horn wildly exceeds my expectations, presently there are no filters, running each trio12 on less than 50 watts of cheap class d, it's clean and tight and even at 10 meters into the farfield you cant even tell there is a sub, the sound is balanced. can hardly wait to hear what it will sound like after 300 hours.
And many thanks to Mark Kravchenko, who reminded me that the physics I already know , works.
I am happy to answer any questions.
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post #7 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 07:58 PM
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Any in room measurements?

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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #8 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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No, I had a fire under the kitchen, wound up tearing down half my house, just rolled the floor joist today for the rebuild. My mic etc. is buried in storage. Hopefully by June I will be settled again. I would not have been able to do this if I didn't have access to both ends.
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post #9 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 08:30 PM
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Sucks that you had a fire, but what an awesome build!

Thanks for sharing. Look forward to measurements.

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post #10 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Me too, not knowing how it will measure out, it already sounds better than any ported or sealed sub I have heard and gets better by the hour as the drivers break in. Any suggestions on a amp for this? Thanks Mike for your tutorials, they helped a lot.
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post #11 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 09:16 PM
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You're welcome. Glad they helped.

Hope nothing other than property was harmed, and hope that the rebuild goes smoothly for you and yours.

As far as an amp? I'd run a pro amp, hands down. I have several Behringers and a QSC, they are all great. I just missed a couple of Crowns at an auction (Glad I stopped bidding -I paid less for an Inuke 3000 DSP). I'm not aware of any pro amps that have DSP that functions under 20 Hz though. My iNuke does not appear to. My MiniDSP works to 10 Hz, and interfaces beautifully with REW.

Basically, review the tests (here and elsewhere), then pick one that will push the power you need into the load you have. Finally, mod the fan to make it quiet once you're happy with it. A Balanced MiniDSP is about the same cost as adding DSP to the amp (if it is available) and the MiniDSP will do a bit more.

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post #12 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I lost my pet bird "rufus" who was a 7 year old starling that I found in the yard as a fledgling. he grew up between speakers and could sing like hendrix played.
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post #13 of 52 Old 01-09-2012, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post

I lost my pet bird "rufus" who was a 7 year old starling that I found in the yard as a fledgling. he grew up between speakers and could sing like hendrix played.

That sucks.

My condolences.

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post #14 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 11:35 AM
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Another scarey build!

Way to go Cort.

Undercover thunder.

Should be a real treat to listen to.

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post #15 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 12:41 PM
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Cool build! Nice work!


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Let's all go to the lobby
....Let's all go to the lobby
........Let's all go to the lobby
............To get ourselves a treat!
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post #16 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 01:10 PM
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Awesome, man! It's builds like this that i can show my wife that keep her from killing me for putting two F-20s in the living room!
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post #17 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 01:15 PM
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I wouldn't want to have your back or knees after building that in a crawl space!
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post #18 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Be careful what you show your wife, she will have you crawling under your house.
The WAF on this one is really high. She said "the mouth on this thing can eat anything we spill on the couch, cool"
I am really amazed by this horn. It is essentially open field right now. I was over at lunch and the carpenters are just finishing the sub floor getting ready to start framing, at 30 feet away the bass was seamless and not overpowering. the other thing that surprised me is how quiet the whole thing is, cant feel hardly any vibration on the outside of the horn, the motor box is especially quiet with over 100db coming out the mouth.
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post #19 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post

Any suggestions on a amp for this?

With that sensitivity anything more than 200w per driver isn't going to be particularly useful, let alone worth spending $ on. I'd avoid the connection issues that pro amps can suffer from and get a pair of BASH 300. Use a sine wave input and volt meter to calibrate them.

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post #20 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone have any experience with these class D audio amps?
http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kit...s-254-kit.html
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post #21 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 05:07 PM
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For about the same price, you could get two of these, that roll of below 20Hz.

http://www.oaudio.com/300W_SUBAMP.html

JSS
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post #22 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post

Anyone have any experience with these class D audio amps?
http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kit...s-254-kit.html

No experience with that one.

For about the same money, you can get this, with full DSP. It has plenty of power for what you're doing.

Initial tests suggest that my iNuke 3000 DSP is essentially as flat as my rudimentary measuring equipment. I measured -0.13 dB at 20 Hz and -0.8 dB at 10 Hz, where I stopped, cause I don't trust my meters or generators much lower than that, unless it is DC. The DSP is nice and easy to use. No DSP functionality below 20 Hz though.

No idea on power yet - this was all low-level measurements.

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post #23 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 05:41 PM
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Good to hear, I have one of the non-dsp 3000s...

JSS
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post #24 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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That inuke looks pretty cool, can you hook up to with a USB?
it looks to me like the class d audio has the better power supply.
I am a little confused on the power thing. Currently my Left right and center are mini statements, plan is to build sealed statements (or anther pair of minis) next and and let the minis do the rear duty. All are powered by an emo UPA-5.
and top out at ~112db. seems like this horn should be able to more than keep up with < 50 clean watts. What am I missing?
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post #25 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post

That inuke looks pretty cool, can you hook up to with a USB?
it looks to me like the class d audio has the better power supply.
I am a little confused on the power thing. Currently my Left right and center are mini statements, plan is to build sealed statements (or anther pair of minis) next and and let the minis do the rear duty. All are powered by an emo UPA-5.
and top out at ~112db. seems like this horn should be able to more than keep up with < 50 clean watts. What am I missing?

Nothing, really. You'll probably listen at less than a watt most of the time to be honest.

It's just that for $300, you can get a lot more than a chipamp. The iNuke is just one option, there are loads of others.

I have several plate amps, and I have several pro amps. I will not likely buy any more plate amps. Just my opinion, but for what you have to spend, plate amps are just not a good value if you need much more than 200 watts. They lack flexibility when it comes to impedances they can drive, and they need to be built into an enclosure. When located remote from the rest of the system, ground loops are often an issue. Their noise floor is higher (which matters with an efficient sub). For flat response, they typically require modifications.

Pro amps are not without their problems, but do offer more flexibility in my eyes.

The DSP software is controlled via USB, and is real-time. Even with the 20 Hz limitation, it seems pretty cool.

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post #26 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

No experience with that one.

For about the same money, you can get this, with full DSP. It has plenty of power for what you're doing.

Initial tests suggest that my iNuke 3000 DSP is essentially as flat as my rudimentary measuring equipment. I measured -0.13 dB at 20 Hz and -0.8 dB at 10 Hz, where I stopped, cause I don't trust my meters or generators much lower than that, unless it is DC. The DSP is nice and easy to use. No DSP functionality below 20 Hz though.

No idea on power yet - this was all low-level measurements.


Any testing under load? ...ie, 20hz and below anemia while under load and approaching limits?

Thanks

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #27 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I just want a few clean watts, whats a good stereo amp that is flat to 10 Hz?
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post #28 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Any testing under load? ...ie, 20hz and below anemia while under load and approaching limits?

Thanks

Not yet. Don't have any drivers or cabinets big enough to load it properly (yet...). Working on that though.

Not sure what I'll be able to do other than strap speakers to it and make noise - I'm really not set up for high-level testing. I can test with up to about 200 watts without too much trouble, beyond that, I'm really out of my league.

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post #29 of 52 Old 01-10-2012, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortga View Post

I just want a few clean watts, whats a good stereo amp that is flat to 10 Hz?

Maybe the AudioSource Amp100? I have not tested mine to see how flat they are (or aren't), but they sound fine to me with higher impedance loads (above 4 ohms stereo/8 ohms bridged). Not sure they really have the grunt for effective sub duty though. It has a toroidal transformer and discrete output transistors, which is uncommon at this price-point.

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post #30 of 52 Old 01-11-2012, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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This Dayton APA150
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-812
looks like it would do the job?
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