More than 4 subs is completly pointless :) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 277 Old 01-09-2012, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm in a thread in the amps section and I've got one dude in there that says the room doesn't have any effect on a sub and it can just be placed wherever because he has science on his side.

Another dude says : "The general consensus is that more than 4 is not needed, and actually not helpful. That is according to Floyd Toole.. who knows a thing or two about such things.."

I just wanted everyone to know how dumb we all are....especially Not apparently LOL.

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post #2 of 277 Old 01-09-2012, 11:14 PM
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Yeah. Everyone knows you only need one sub and can be hid anywhere because bass is omnidirectional. Also, since the subwoofer handles ALL the bass now, you won't need large speakers.


My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #3 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 12:30 AM
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That's just sacrilege! Excommunicate anyone who thinks fewer subs is good enough!

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #4 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 12:56 AM
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I was on audiocircle and saw someone talking about their sub losing extension because their class D amp they hooked up to it was too "tight" lol....

Want to measure your subwoofers? check out my dummies guide for a step by step process to Room EQ wizard
http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html
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post #5 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 01:44 AM
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I'm on the money then with my system. 4 subs. Better not put anymore in because its pointless.

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post #6 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 03:00 AM
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Wait, what are the other three for???

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post #7 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yeah. Everyone knows you only need one sub and can be hid anywhere because bass is omnidirectional. Also, since the subwoofer handles ALL the bass now, you won't need large speakers.


That's right. My bose acoustimass system rocks the house, sounds great everywhere.

JSS
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post #8 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 03:38 AM
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I've been spending some time on some of those other forums.

Go into one of their highend cable threads and tell them they make no difference. I didn't have the guts to do it!

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post #9 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 04:09 AM
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"I've got one dude in there that says the room doesn't have any effect on a sub and it can just be placed wherever because he has science on his side"

he is correct. the room doesn't have any effect on a sub. after playing for two years in the front corner the sub will be in the same condition as after playing for two years along the back wall. :-)

the guy talking about 4 subs is confused with 4 locations. 'not has 8 subs, but only 2 locations.

"Go into one of their highend cable threads and tell them they make no difference. I didn't have the guts to do it!"

go in armed:
http://www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

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post #10 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 05:06 AM
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It doesn't require much experimenting to prove to yourself that positioning has a real effect on performance. A half hour pushing subs around leaves no doubt. I've got to believe people making these claims haven't ever tried. Or could there be a room that has all the variables to make it true that position doesn't matter?

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post #11 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 05:46 AM
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It's not the room. Its all in the cables.

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post #12 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I'm in a thread in the amps section and I've got one dude in there that says the room doesn't have any effect on a sub and it can just be placed wherever because he has science on his side.

That proves that he hasn't the slightest notion what the science is. And those are the ones who'll raise the most ruckus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

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post #13 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 07:49 AM
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Tom's "one" sub does just fine. I don't know what you guys are talking about.



So does this guy's...


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post #14 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 07:52 AM
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I have awoken to a new day, that day being theory proved by graph trumps all ignorance...

.... Feel sad for such a youth who walks with eyes closed, and a heart filled with hate for truth.

..... cry out loud so all can hear, " there will be nodeless rooms " where men walk hand in hand with knowledge...

Peace Out Brothers... Do i hear a Amen ?
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post #15 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 08:06 AM
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i only have room for one F-20 in my space (currently being built).. can I still hang out with you guys? :P
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post #16 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaddeussmith View Post

i only have room for one F-20 in my space (currently being built).. can I still hang out with you guys? :P

If you divide it into 4th's (4 F-5's ) then maybe.

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post #17 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 08:42 AM
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

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post #18 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That proves that he hasn't the slightest notion what the science is. And those are the ones who'll raise the most ruckus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect

LOL Bill! hahahaha!!

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post #19 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

Tom's "one" sub does just fine. I don't know what you guys are talking about.



So does this guy's...


So by that guys theory, that wall will sound the same with 4 subs LOL

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post #20 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 09:18 AM
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Which thread is this happening in?

Matt

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post #21 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

I was on audiocircle and saw someone talking about their sub losing extension because their class D amp they hooked up to it was too "tight" lol....

Bwahahahaha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

I'm on the money then with my system. 4 subs. Better not put anymore in because its pointless.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot by adding that new LMS-U to your room. You'll f**k the whole thing up!

Quote:
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It's not the room. Its all in the cables.

JSS

Oh... with these polished rocks-in-a-bag taped to said cables.

Quote:
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

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Hahaha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Vai_rules View Post

Which thread is this happening in?

Matt

Yeah... I gotta see this turd thread turn into a trainwreck.

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post #22 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 11:16 AM
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post #23 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 11:29 AM
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I wouldn't be too quick to automatically discount when one of the participants is FilmMixer, who knows a thing or two about audio.
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post #24 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghani99 View Post

It starts at Post #693

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...+toole&page=24

Ahhaaa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

I wouldn't be too quick to automatically discount when one of the participants is FilmMixer, who knows a thing or two about audio.

Yyyeesss. Just noticed that. Hmm, well. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. I am of the mind that multiples are key to smooth response over a broad (or single) area but there is no magic number where it is suddenly good or bad.

The way I see is that N8 and Mixer are not seeing eye-to-eye on the subject and that's it. Mixer works in a large mixing studio so the environment and how a bass system reacts to the space is different than the typical home environment.

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post #25 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 11:36 AM
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After skimming the thread I think you are drawing too many conclusions about absolutes. But, I have only two subs so shall stay out of this one (not qualified, and past experience with gobs of subs set up in large spaces for live sound does not count). Besides, I have been in rooms with 120+ dB bass tones, and it just makes my stomach hurt. Putting them in to smooth the response I can, but 140+ dB output? Ouch... That should be sufficient headroom!

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post #26 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Ahhaaa



Yyyeesss. Just noticed that. Hmm, well. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. I am of the mind that multiples are key to smooth response over a broad (or single) area but there is no magic number where it is suddenly good or bad.

The way I see is that N8 and Mixer are not seeing eye-to-eye on the subject and that's it. Mixer works in a large mixing studio so the environment and how a bass system reacts to the space is different than the typical home environment.

My whole argument is that the room and seating position play a big roll on where you put your sub. Inches can mean a huge difference at your seating position. Which all of us know is very true. placement is key for best performance at your seating pos.

As for filmmixer, I have no doubt that he may be a very smart guy but it's silly to say adding more than 4 subs to a room won't make any difference. We didn't go over room size or anything. There are so many variables not taken into account. It may be the case in some instances but for sure not in all of them. He makes it sound like an absolute fact.

I dunno, it irked me LOL

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post #27 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 03:12 PM
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I feel ya, N8 and I agree. I'm just saying both arguments work in their settings.

You most certainly could not convince me that adding an 'X' amount of subs won't matter. Umm ...well. Within reason. Not sure you could tell if there was an extra sub in a room with 100 subs in there already. But now I'm just getting silly.

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post #28 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 03:44 PM
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The real answer is: It depends......on the cables used. and the type of polished rocks used to calm the eddy currents therein. So all of you non-believers need to be enlightened. Come drink the Kool-Aid.....

OK, seriously. In a rectangular room, with identical walls, with the Schroeder frequency above 150Hz or so, with a central seating configuration, in order to get the most equal (not flat, mind you) frequency response between seats, yes, more than 4 LF source locations of emenation are not necessary.

PLEASE READ THAT LAST PARAGRAPH AGAIN.

But most folks do not have this ideal room, and experimentation (and delay and PEQ, if you have that capability) and measurement (and more measurement) are key. To save money, I would not recommend using more than 4 sub locations, as it would not necessarily yield greater uniformity between seats.

In larger rooms where Schroeder frequency is much lower, all bets are off on multiple LF source locations. This is why big theaters cluster their subs, for more output due to mutual coupling:



Spreading out subs throughout a room lowers overall LF output compared to clustering subs, until you get to the PVG region, where every new sub adds to the pot.

Wanna throw another wrench into the worx? Measure your room's response at your calves vs your abdomen vs your head. Find out that the 'pant-flapping' and 'gut churning' you were 'hearing' was anything but a flat freq response.....and have your mind blown.....

JSS

But seriously, get the good cables.
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post #29 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 04:14 PM
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Yyyeesssh. I guess I should really consider rethinking my priorities. The bass section on my uber mains will be more than those. Agh! What the hell was I thinking?!

Lol. I will be doing the same with two or three dual-opposed multi-thousand watt subs behind the cluster and will experiment with more sealed subs distributed.

"Every subs adds to the pot." You guys rememeber that when I finally post up my uber build. Yes...

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post #30 of 277 Old 01-10-2012, 04:54 PM
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N8,

Pepar is right. He is talking about location, and in the context of rectangular rooms, which he clearly states (parallel walls and 90 degree corners). The science is fairly clear on this, and your reference to participants in a DIY forum as being superior to the work of people working (i.e. paid to research) on the field is a little presumptuous.

PS, many of the people in the DIY forum also accept the findings stated in Dr Toole et al's work on sub placement; i.e. placement of subs 4 either mid-walls (each opposing wall) or each corner is the best location, and more than those 4 locations provides little benefit in smoothing the bass response in the room (i.e. rectangular room) (caveat: we are talking about rooms in homes; i.e. small spaces, not gyms, etc.).

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