New TLAH build... Got the drivers but have a question about the crossovers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 01-18-2012, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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So, I ordered the GRS 4PF-8 4" drivers from Parts Express and the Goldwood GT-1016 2" x 5" Wide Dispersion Piezo Horn Tweeters.

I am using Bill Fitzmaurice speaker plans for a TLAH Left, Right, and hopfully center. The drivers are seen below. I just finished a build of the AutoTuba design, seen in the background. I just have to sand and stain it, but holy crap it sounds good powered with an NAD 2200 bridged to mono and my Pioneer Elite 92TXH with he crossover set to 80Hz, but I digress...

I bought the components I need for the Piezo High-Pass Filter as suggested by Bill, however I am not sure about how that plays into a crossover design. Also, the 4" drivers I purchased go from 100Hz to 10,000Hz. I assume a crossover is in order here, but I don't know how to figure out the tweeter impedance or the driver impedance to plug into the lalena.com crossover calculator here: http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/XOver/

I bought nine 4" drivers for ech TLAH for an 8 ohm setup, and twelve tweeters. I am not sure how the tweeters should be wired to hit eight ohms, since I guess they are variable at different frequencies?

I have been reading a lot about crossover design, but the more I read the more confusing it get.

Any help, pointers, or tools would be extremely helpful!

Oh yes, I have been looking at the curved SLA designs, but not sure that is the way to go. Also, wouldn't it be better to make it convex instead of concave to disperse the 'sweet spot'?




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post #2 of 41 Old 01-18-2012, 04:48 PM
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where is the spec sheet/frequency response for the woofs?

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post #3 of 41 Old 01-18-2012, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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My apologies! Here is the specs for the woofers:

Specifications:
Power handling: 40 watts RMS/70 watts max
VCdia: 1"
Le: 0.88 mH
Impedance: 8 ohms
Re: 7.49 ohms
Frequency range: 100-10,000 Hz
Fs: 98 Hz
SPL: 84 dB 1W/1m
Vas: 0.12 cu. ft.
Qms: 4.55
Qes: 1.90
Qts: 1.34
Xmax: 2.5 mm
Dimensions: : Overall diameter: 4-1/8" x 4-1/8", Cutout diameter: 3-3/4", Depth: 2-1/8".

And specs for the tweeters:

Specifications:
Similar to KSN1016
Power handling: 50 watts RMS/75 watts max
Frequency response: 3,500-27,000 Hz
SPL: 94 dB
Manufacturer model number: GT-1016
Dimensions: Height: 5-3/4", Width: 2-3/4", Depth: 2"

I hope this is what you need

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post #4 of 41 Old 01-19-2012, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Someone at parts express suggested using a 1.6 mH air coil for the woofers, but that seems very high, and I have no way of calculating the crossover frequency since the tweeters are by nature variable depending on the frequency. I plan on wiring the twelve tweets in 3 sets of four, but now I wonder if I should go the 9 woofer 18 tweeter route since I am looking at a possible curved SLA design for the center channel. I'll have to check to see if the horns are easily removable from the tweeters....

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post #5 of 41 Old 01-19-2012, 01:57 PM
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I will hopefully be building clones to these:

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/vi...p?f=30&t=15754

But power shaded for better directivity and with a more optimized crossover. I will seal off the end of the transmission line to see how much LF it adds, and if we can model a transmission line array without akabak. I will document the build.

The drivers were dirt cheap, and it should make a nice backyard party system when paired with some DIY 33Hz horns (each should be around 21"x30"x12", and a stack of eight should get a -3dB point of 30Hz with 125-128dB capability at 1m).


JSS
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post #6 of 41 Old 01-19-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post

Someone at parts express suggested using a 1.6 mH air coil for the woofers, but that seems very high, and I have no way of calculating the crossover frequency since the tweeters are by nature variable depending on the frequency.

You should have followed the plans. Why you decided on piezo tweeters when it's not a pro version cab is a puzzlement, as is asking questions here and at Parts Express rather than where you should have. If asked I would have advised against them.

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post #7 of 41 Old 01-19-2012, 04:37 PM
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lynx, it isn't really fair to call them a bfm tlah and then go change all the parts. the likelihood that you are going to get a good result is kind of low and then it will tarnish the bfm brand.

there are some places where you can get a custom crossover designed, but passive crossover design can be quite challenging. most calculators don't consider that the impedance varies with frequency nor do the consider the shape of the frequency response.

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post #8 of 41 Old 01-19-2012, 05:09 PM
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Part of what you try to accomplish in matching the woofer and tweeter lines is not just getting the impedence close / manageable by your receiver/amp, but also sensitivity matching - so you get balanced output between them. I think its going to be hard to do that between 84 dB sensitive woofers and 94 sensitive tweeters. If you can, I'd either return/exchange the piezos for lower sensitivity (dome) tweeters (you need to work out the impedence / sensitivity matching before ordering so you know how many you need); or exchange the woofers for TLAH pro compatible drivers, and build that.

Caveat: I am currently building my TLAHs, so my experience is at the Holiday Inn Express level.

(I'm fitzwaddle over on Bill's forum)
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post #9 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I noticed that the piezo drivers were 10 db higher sensitivity than the mid 4" drivers too late. I saw the prices at PE and had a knee-jerk reaction to buy them, since the Sony drivers, the ones for $2.50, were sold out the day before when I decided to wait to buy them. I foolishly figured I could build a 10db attenuator for the tweeters, but after seeing what that takes, the cost would eat up the saving over lesser drivers.

Bill, my apologies for not asking first. I guess my student budget mindset got in the way. I am going to see if PE will take back the tweeters, and I'll wait till they have a clearance sale on perhaps the Goldwood GT-302s that I see here.

By the way Bill, I did build the AutoTuba exactly according to your plans, except I had to rework the Google sketchup plans for 3/4 inch plywood instead of 1/2, mainly because, again, there was a sale on cabinet grade plywood. That sub sound phenomenal. It's hard to believe what one can get for $87.00

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post #10 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I called parts express about the issue with he Piezo drivers. They were extremely understanding about the whole thing, and sent me 54 of the Goldwood GT-302 1/2" Ferro fluid cooled Mylar dome shielded tweeters.

Power handling: 30 watts RMS/45 watts max
Voice coil diameter: 1/2"
Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency response: 4,000 - 19,000 Hz
Magnet weight: 1/2 oz.
Fs: 2,600 Hz
SPL: 90 dB 1W/1m
Net weight: 2 oz.
Manufacturer part number: GT-302/GT-302S
Dimensions: Overall diameter: 2-3/8" x 2-3/8", Cutout diameter: 1-15/16", Depth: 7/8", Magnet diameter: 1-7/16", Magnet height: 5/8".

This is much closer to the Dayton ND20TB just a LOT cheaper, the only issue may be the center to center measurement, but it seems others have used this setup with good results...

The total length of the nine 4" drivers top to bottom is 37.125 inches, so if I wired 16 tweeters in 4 parallel groups of four to get an 8 ohm impedance to match the mids, the length would be 38", so that should work just fine.

Bill, I just registered for an account under the same name on your forum, so I will ask the appropriate questions there.

I will keep this thread up to date as well, cause I hate threads that end with no answers

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post #11 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post

Bill, I just registered for an account under the same name on your forum, so I will ask the appropriate questions there.

Not to rub salt into the wound, but you should have done that before buying anything, and then bought the recommended drivers along with the crossover parts from the recommended source unless first confirming the suitability of alternative choices. For that matter the website recommends going to the forum before even ordering plans to be sure you get the right plans for your needs.

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post #12 of 41 Old 01-20-2012, 04:24 PM
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"I will keep this thread up to date as well, cause I hate threads that end with no answers..."

i hope after all this that your project works out. don't feel too bad about it all. learning is a process.

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post #13 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so...

I calculated the sensitivity of the mids and the tweeters.

9 midrange - 3 parallel groups of three = 93.54 dB 9.54 dB efficiency, 0.00 dB sensitivity 8 ohms

16 drivers - 4 parallel groups of 4 = 102.04 dB 12.04 dB efficiency, 0.00 dB sensitivity 8 ohms

Since there is an SPL sheet for the tweeters, and not for the mids, I will trust that the tweeters are 90 dB sensitivity, and best case scenario, the mids really are 84 dB sensitivity. The data above suggests that the mids will have 93.54 dB sensitivity at 8 ohms and the tweeters will be 102.04 dB at 8 ohms.

To make the tweeters match the midrange, they would have to have 81.5 dB sensitivity instead of 90 dB, an 8.5 dB difference.

To do this, I need to wire an L-Pad after the crossover and before the tweeters...


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post #14 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 02:33 PM
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Piezos do not act like regular tweeters. You are assuming an 8 Ohm impedance for piezos. To acheive this, you will need to put an 8 Ohm resistor across the terminals of each piezo (or across the entire wired array) and then put the crossover in place.

JSS
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post #15 of 41 Old 01-22-2012, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I switched the piezos for the Goldwood GT-302 1/2" Ferro fluid cooled Mylar dome shielded tweeters.

Power handling: 30 watts RMS/45 watts max
Voice coil diameter: 1/2"
Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency response: 4,000 - 19,000 Hz
Magnet weight: 1/2 oz.
Fs: 2,600 Hz
SPL: 90 dB 1W/1m
Net weight: 2 oz.
Manufacturer part number: GT-302/GT-302S
Dimensions: Overall diameter: 2-3/8" x 2-3/8", Cutout diameter: 1-15/16", Depth: 7/8", Magnet diameter: 1-7/16", Magnet height: 5/8".

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post #16 of 41 Old 01-24-2012, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I played around with the LPad calculator a little bit and found that is I use a 5.1 ohm resister for R1 and a 4.7 ohm resister for R2, since these are both common values for Dayton +/-1% caps, the speaker impedance will be 8.071 ohms, and the attenuation will be 8.68dB to the tweeters. That should be close enough I would think?

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post #17 of 41 Old 01-24-2012, 03:39 PM
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i don't man...but your tenacity is admirable...i think.

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post #18 of 41 Old 01-24-2012, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the reasoning behind not being close enough to start? Is there a huge audible difference in a such a small resistance change? Yes, tenacious. At some point I'll just build it, but at the same time I am trying to learn these theories (or facts). A big part of this is for fun, as well. After all if it's not fun, whats the point? I'll never be an audio engineer lol

Hey, when I start making six figures, I'll buy the EXACT components and say the heck with the cost

I still like how the AutoTuba turned out. Perfect for my small (for now) living room with my 1981 Klipsch Heresys

As long as I won't hurt my electronics, that is the main concern...

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post #19 of 41 Old 02-20-2012, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Just an update on this project, I'll probably be trying to complete it over spring break since I've been busy at the University, but it is still happening

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post #20 of 41 Old 03-20-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I bought the Baltic Birch plywood at Lenco Lumber here in NY for $47 a sheet. It is 13 layers for 3/4", 9 layers for 1/2" ($25/sheet). I ended up replacing my timing belt in the car over spring break, and working on the basement walls. I also installed a 200 amp power panel. At least things are progressing!

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post #21 of 41 Old 03-27-2012, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Started cutting the Baltic Birch plywood! Things are coming along slowly, but they are happening

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post #22 of 41 Old 05-30-2012, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Just an update. Got the front baffle for the curved SLA started. See the pics below. This thing is gonna be a monster!










The glue up time on this is gonna suck

I can't wait to hear and see how this turns out

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post #23 of 41 Old 05-30-2012, 07:48 PM
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I love how my curved SLA turned out (but I'll be rebuilding it this summer, just cuz I've gotten a LOT better at the woodworking part). It was a huge improvement over my prior center channel.

~Whip
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post #24 of 41 Old 05-30-2012, 09:41 PM
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Looks awesome so far. Looking forward to the final product impressions.
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post #25 of 41 Old 05-31-2012, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so got the other holes cut and routed for the TLAH left and right baffle. I laid everything out before cutting the piece into it's two pieces, just to make everything easier, give more stability, etc. The tweeters have about 1/32" between them on the backside, so my measurements were damn close. Glad I prebuilt the speakers in Google Sketch-up first! I will be interested to hear any obvious combing effects of the tweeters, since C.t.C is 2-3/8"

I think to figure it out was something like 13453/C.t.C

Tweeters might have combing above 5,664 Hz

Mids would have combing above 3,261 Hz, so perhaps I will do the crossover at 4,800 Hz instead of 5,000 Hz. I read somewhere the mids I chose have a bad cone breakup right at 5000 Hz, so if I xover just shy of that, should be good... IDK, we will see!

Pics below:





Not bad for hand layout, hand router, and hole saws

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post #26 of 41 Old 06-01-2012, 05:59 AM
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Looking sweet! Keep the pics coming
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post #27 of 41 Old 06-03-2012, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so I'm glad apparently combing will not be an issue!

I have made some more progress on the TLAH front and left; pics below:



All 200 driver mounting screw holes pre-drilled



Closeup of the mounting screw holes



Sides and back cut out with tops and bottoms



Back and sides pre-fastened for fit testing



Back, sides, and top all glued

I will let that all cure for a couple days, pull out the temp screws, and move on!

As you can see, I have a basement to finish too...

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post #28 of 41 Old 12-27-2012, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so my first graduate semester ended with a 4.0GPA, taking 5 classes and working smile.gif . So now since I have a couple weeks, I am getting the crossover components for the curved SLA center channel. According to the crossover design, I need these capacitors:

0.82uF (027-107) + 0.56uF (027-105) = 1.38uF
0.82uF (027-107) + 3.3uF (027-222) = 4.12uF
0.82uF (027-107) + 4.7uF (027-107) = 5.52uF

These inductors:
Jantzen 0.40mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor (255-224) x2
Jantzen 0.13mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor (255-204)

This will get me darn close to this:



Now, since the tweeters have to have an LPad to attenuate by 6dB, I am going to order these:

Dayton DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor (004-16)
Mills 8 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor (005-8)

Total is $34.51 Before I order all this, I would like some expert feedback to make sure these components should work out. Also, any suggestions as what to watch for when wiring this 11 component crossover together, or good layout practices?

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post #29 of 41 Old 12-29-2012, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, so I completely missed information in the plans I had, turned out there were updates done to them, so I got the updated ones, followed the new guidelines for crossover computation, and arrived at this:

The new values based on 16ohm tweeter load and 12ohm woofer load (rule of thumb since I don't have the response curve for the midrange) is below:



So, the new parts list is:

Audyn Cap Q4 0.82uF 400V MKP Foil Capacitor (027-107) + Audyn Cap Q4 0.56uF 400V MKP Foil Capacitor (027-105) = 1.38uF
Audyn Cap Q4 0.82uF 400V MKP Foil Capacitor (027-107) + Dayton PMPC-3.3 3.3uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor (027-222) = 4.12uF
Jantzen 0.68uF 400V Crosscap Capacitor (027-908) + Dayton PMPC-3.0 3.0uF 250V Precision Audio Capacitor (027-220) = 3.68uF

These inductors:
Jantzen 0.40mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor (255-224)
Jantzen 0.60mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor (255-234)
Jantzen 0.20mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor (255-210)


Now, since the tweeters have to have an LPad to attenuate by 6dB, I am going to order these:

Dayton DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor (004-16)
Mills 8 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor (005-8)

Total is $33.57

Parts are ordered! Now I just have to figure out the crossover layout. Glad I have a lot of room in that box! biggrin.gif

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post #30 of 41 Old 12-29-2012, 03:23 PM
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Does your receiver have Audyssey?

JSS
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