Suitable replacement for the JBL2226 (4pi) - AVS Forum
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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With the changes in the aftermarket prices for DIY/replacement drivers over the past year or so, I would like to explore a suitable replacement for the JBL 2226 for use in the 4Pi. I have been thinking about this at length lately. Do I just start saving again and eat the cost of the 2226 or do I look for a comparable product that would be a drop in replacement.

I have been through PE and have several windows open with 15" pro audio drivers. None have any real advantage according to the numbers.

Here is my query. The JBL2226H is $503 as a raw driver. For the kit on Pi's site this upgrade is $235 over the Omega 15" $194.99. Thus buying directly from Pi will net a ~$68 savings over sourcing the 2226 elsewhere when choosing to go with the JBL driver. So, is there a suitable replacement? Or should I just push back the project and eat the additional cost when I am ready?

I appreciate your opinions. Chris L.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

The JBL2226H is $503 as a raw driver. For the kit on Pi's site this upgrade is $235 over the Delta 15" $194.99. Thus buying directly from Pi will net a ~$68 savings over sourcing the 2226 elsewhere when choosing to go with the JBL driver. So, is there a suitable replacement? Or should I just push back the project and eat the additional cost when I am ready? .

Do you mean Delta 15LF? I hope so. In any event the Kappa Pro 15LF can sub for the 2226. LF or otherwise $194.99 is way out of line for a Delta 15. Kappa Pro 15LF here is $149:
http://www.speakerhardware.com/

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Old 01-22-2012, 11:07 AM
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Watch Ebay for some used 2226's, they often go for $200-250 each.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Do you mean Delta 15LF? I hope so. In any event the Kappa Pro 15LF can sub for the 2226. LF or otherwise $194.99 is way out of line for a Delta 15. Kappa Pro 15LF here is $149:
http://www.speakerhardware.com/

I corrected a mistake in my original post. The correct "stock" bass driver that comes with the kit from Pi is the Omega 15" not the Delta. Sorry for the mix up. I had too many windows open.

Would there be any sacrifices in performance with the Kappa over the 2226? Also, would there be any adjustments or changes to the crossover with this driver?

Thank you for the link Bill. I am looking through that site right now.

(Edit) I set the Omega, Kappa Pro 15LF, and JBL2226H next to each other and looked at the raw data. The Omega is out of the running. Both the Kappa and JBL seem to be much more capable drivers in FR, power handling, and linear Xmax. Does the additional extension (35Hz for the Kappa Pro 15LF and 30Hz for the 2226H) and Xmax (6.7mm and 7.6mm respectively) make the 2226h the superior driver the reviews make it out to be? The pricing on the Kappa Pro 15LF is very attractive. I understand the concept of marginal returns and price technically being relative, my struggle will be figuring out if the price differential is revealed in an increase in quality or sound. I wish I could hear them.

I appreciate the suggestion and am bookmarking for decision day.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

Watch Ebay for some used 2226's, they often go for $200-250 each.

It is funny you mention that. I am addicted to looking at home audio on Ebay. I check JBL first. I was leery of buying used drivers via Ebay as the true history of the driver is never really known. Age, abuse, over driven, or other unseen damage is rarely disclosed. I will keep looking though. The right deal may just pop up. I will always leave this open as a possibility though.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:56 AM
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You should get a look here: http://www.aespeakers.com/

They shurely make an alternative to the JBL. TD15M is probably one of them.
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxserg View Post

You should get a look here: http://www.aespeakers.com/

They shurely make an alternative to the JBL.

They make some truly stunning drivers! The Lambda Series TD15M seems to be in the range. I have no idea what the cost is on this unit. I will have to do some more research on them. These things have every bell and whistle too! If anyone reading this has experience with these, I would enjoy hearing your experiences.

Taken from their site:

The Lambda Series TD drivers are setting a new higher standard for performance and durability. Designed for punishing professional use, they also have the clean sound needed for critical monitoring and audiophile uses. The TD15M is a high sensitivity, high power handling, wide bandwidth driver of which there is no comparison. These drivers are capable of reproducing frequencies of up to 2Khz off axis, and much higher with a more narrow dispersion pattern.

They are rated for 500W continuous power handling. Power compression is perhaps the lowest of ANY woofer currently available due to the combination of shorting rings and the phase plug. As a result, inductance and distortion is also extremely low.

TD15M - 8ohm
Fs: 34.7Hz
Qms: 5.09
Vas: 312L
Cms: .3mm/N
Mms: 70g
Rms: 3kg/s
Xmax: 6mm
Sd: 855sqcm
Qes: .35
Re: 6.6ohm
Le: .2mH
Z: 8ohm
Bl: 17Tm
Pe: 500W
Qts: .33
1W SPL: 97.8dB
2.83V SPL: 98.6dB

I am going to need to SS all these driver specs so I can directly compare. Going to do a search for projects where people have used this driver.

Thank you Max!
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:21 PM
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Why not build the 3π with the AE TD12S?

High Desert Theater - work in progress
Building Bass - Subs

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Old 01-22-2012, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post


Would there be any sacrifices in performance with the Kappa over the 2226?

Not much, so long as the Kappa Pro is crossed over no higher than 800Hz, which is as high as I'd take a fifteen anyway.

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Old 01-22-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not much, so long as the Kappa Pro is crossed over no higher than 800Hz, which is as high as I'd take a fifteen anyway.

Ok, so I need to ask what the crossover point for the 15" is then. this is good to know. Thank you!
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petew View Post

Why not build the 3π with the AE TD12S?

I wanted the additional extension and output of the larger bass driver the ported 4Pi offers.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:13 PM
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I asked Wayne on his form the same question. He recommended second hand & or reconed JBL being 100% as good as brand new. Apparently there are deals to be had if you look around. He also stated that the JBL 2226H is still his first & only choice.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:43 PM
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pm sent.

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Old 01-22-2012, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Ok, so I need to ask what the crossover point for the 15" is then. this is good to know. Thank you!

The TD15M can go higher than most of 12 inchers. Dispersion wise they say it is very usable up to 2Khz.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:59 PM
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New 2226H for $362 shipped:
http://www.speakerfactory.net/ordJ2226.htm


I believe the crossover point for the 4Pi is 1200 Hertz.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:14 PM
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$362 is a good price. What does Parham sell them for right now?

You can't simply swap a different woofer in without modifications to the crossover which require skill, measurements and modelling. Parham's designs are well done and an excellent choice for someone who wants controlled directivity and high sensitivity. Stick to his plans and at the very least ask him if you want to stray from them.

The 2226 is an exceptional driver and does quite nicely up to where Parham uses it, around 1200hz.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:23 PM
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:49 PM
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Beach audio tends to have good prices on B&C with free shipping as well

http://search.beachaudio.com/search?...&w=B%26C+15%22

Might be worth investigating:

B And C 15NW100 B&c 15" Woofer W/ Neo Magnet 4" Coil
$313.12

B And C 15pzb100 1400 Watt 15" Woofer
$234.90

15plb76 $182.79
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:15 PM
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non jbl drivers will likely have different frequency response and different impedance through the crossover region...so no match. direct replacements are very difficult. i suspect the op will ok given the info that i sent.

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Old 01-22-2012, 07:28 PM
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If you use anything other than the two woofers Wayne has extensively tested you shouldn't expect the same performance. Not that there aren't some good drivers out there, just if you use them the published crossover plans may not be of use to you and you are on your own. Wayne has been tweaking and building his 4Pi for years. I would hunt out the best price on the JBLs you can find.
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

I wanted the additional extension and output of the larger bass driver the ported 4Pi offers.

Just so you know the 4Pi's are designed to be used with some subs. The output drops off below 80hz even though it is a ported 15. Wayne's published data for the 4Pi pretty much matches what I measured for the ones I built. From Wayne's site:

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Old 01-22-2012, 07:48 PM
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too bad he hasn't revoiced them in so long. seems like that 1khz peak could be made much smoother by crossing in the woofer a little lower.

the overall 4 db drop from the bass to the treble is part of why these work.

there is something that is not quite right about the 2226h driver, because it requires a little bit of power to start getting it on. i suppose this could be fixed with some dynamic eq, but it would be interesting to know why this is the case.

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Old 01-22-2012, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genelec Man View Post

I asked Wayne on his form the same question. He recommended second hand & or reconed JBL being 100% as good as brand new. Apparently there are deals to be had if you look around. He also stated that the JBL 2226H is still his first & only choice.

I was going to go through his forums tonight after my son goes to sleep. I am open to used at this point a the JBL driver can be had at much more reasonable prices. Thank you for your input.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

pm sent.

Got them! Thank you for the links.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genelec Man View Post

I asked Wayne on his form the same question. He recommended second hand & or reconed JBL being 100% as good as brand new. Apparently there are deals to be had if you look around. He also stated that the JBL 2226H is still his first & only choice.

As good as new, if you use factory and not aftermarket parts.

Quote:

Isn't this what EG uses in the Summa? If so, should be a good driver, but unlikely to work correctly in the stock 4Pi xover.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

too bad he hasn't revoiced them in so long. seems like that 1khz peak could be made much smoother by crossing in the woofer a little lower.

the overall 4 db drop from the bass to the treble is part of why these work.

there is something that is not quite right about the 2226h driver, because it requires a little bit of power to start getting it on. i suppose this could be fixed with some dynamic eq, but it would be interesting to know why this is the case.

I'd say that looks pretty damn good. The reason his on-axis measurements looks the way it does (climbs slightly from upper bass to the crossover region and then tapers off slowly) is due to him optimizing the power response and not the on-axis response.

Parham has put significant work into this crossover and just from looking at this FR along with knowing the baffle size, woofer diameter and approx horn directivity I know it is well designed.

To the OP, either buy the driver this crossover was designed for (2226H in the upgraded 4pi version) or go a completely different route.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

non jbl drivers will likely have different frequency response and different impedance through the crossover region...so no match. direct replacements are very difficult. i suspect the op will ok given the info that i sent.


That is what I thought. Although other drivers would work, they will not be optimal due to the crossovers selected components.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

If you use anything other than the two woofers Wayne has extensively tested you shouldn't expect the same performance. Not that there aren't some good drivers out there, just if you use them the published crossover plans may not be of use to you and you are on your own. Wayne has been tweaking and building his 4Pi for years. I would hunt out the best price on the JBLs you can find.

I totally agree at this point. I had no idea there were all of these resources available to source drivers outside of the usual suspects. I am definitely going to comb through Wayne's forums and soak up the information there.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Just so you know the 4Pi's are designed to be used with some subs. The output drops off below 80hz even though it is a ported 15. Wayne's published data for the 4Pi pretty much matches what I measured for the ones I built. From Wayne's site:


80Hz is just about perfect for me. I already have a sub in place. Once I get my mains sorted, if I need more low end I can address it then.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope it is OK to copy from another forum, but this is straight from Wayne:

"Short answer, no. There is no drop-in replacement that is as good.

If you're in a hurry, I might suggest looking for used 2226 drivers. One of the nice things about JBL is a reconed speaker is 100% as good as new, provided you use a genuine OEM recone kit.

The driver that is closest in performance and quality is probably the Acoustic Elegance TD15M, which is an excellent part. But it would require a crossover redesign, as has been discussed here in the past. It isn't a drop-in replacement for the JBL 2226 in the four π loudspeaker and the lead time is no better, so I'm not really on board with taking that approach."

The answer was 2 clicks away. Thank you everyone for your input and suggestions.
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