ep series amps, too old? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Shadow Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Looking at building my own sub. I see some EP amps for sale, looking at an ep2500 for example, used of course. I see them typically around $230-$300. At this point are they maybe too old, like a fox body mustang.
Should I really be looking at a much lower powered inuke1000 with DSP, or with a feedback destroyer or maybe down the road getting a minidsp am I better off picking up one of this powerful ep2500s and not worrying about it breaking down? Thoughts?
Shadow Hunter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 03:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,667
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Liked: 271
They are not to old. The ep4000 is the same unit with different badges and they ause the exact same parts. Amps are not like other audio EQ, age generally don't mean anything.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is online now  
post #3 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 04:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 166
They're fine. Some of the newer inexpensive Class D pro amps (e.g. Peavey IPR, Crown XLS DriveCore, Behringer iNuke) are more energy-efficient, but the Berry's are fine.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 
DS-21 is offline  
post #4 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 04:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
vitaminbass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
careful what you pay for a used one...a new one is 250-300 last time i looked if you shop a little
vitaminbass is offline  
post #5 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 05:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminbass View Post

careful what you pay for a used one...a new one is 250-300 last time i looked if you shop a little

Agree with you there. With the current affordability of something like the Behringer NU3000DSP (620 watts per channel at 4 ohms) for $399. Well the $250 that people want for an EP2500 is just amazing in two respects. One that they ask that much and two that they seemingly find buyers. The NU3000 basic model is $299.

Every time I see a 15 year old 200 WPC at 4 ohm Mackie, QSC, Crest etc on Craigslist for $325 I get a chuckle.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #6 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Shadow Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is great info! I am not knocking the EP series one bit, but I am leaning more towards the inuke series now.
Shadow Hunter is offline  
post #7 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 07:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Drisco Z71's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Axtell/Lincoln Nebraska
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You can get used EP2500's for $200 all day long on guitar centers website. If you wait for a deal to come along you can do even better, I think mine was $170 in perfect condition. Guitar center is a used amp goldmine that few home theater guys seem to know of.
Drisco Z71 is offline  
post #8 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Shadow Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ill keep checking the site, see if more used ones come in. Sadly right now the lowest price I see for one is $300.
Shadow Hunter is offline  
post #9 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 08:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Agree with you there. With the current affordability of something like the Behringer NU3000DSP (620 watts per channel at 4 ohms) for $399. Well the $250 that people want for an EP2500 is just amazing in two respects. One that they ask that much and two that they seemingly find buyers. The NU3000 basic model is $299.

Have there been any bench tests of the iNuke line, though?

Do they do close to what they say they do?

The EP line is a known quantity.

Also, the recent KC blind subwoofer test indicated that the NU3000 doesn't have as much headroom as a Dayton SA1000.

Admittedly, the SA1000 is not a bad amp at all. Chuck's test of its predecessor HPSA1000R notwithstanding, I've had two independent sources who have measured them tell me that they're good for ~750W/4Ω continuous, ~950W/4Ω for a little while, and ~1.8kW/4Ω burst.

But that suggests to me that the iNukes might be less than meets the eye. I.e. iNuke 3000 ≈ IPR1600.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 
DS-21 is offline  
post #10 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 08:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 27
On Behringer's website page for the INuke DSP3K, there is a link to a .PDF German Pro Sound review of the amp. [Tools4Music] The file is too big to attach here.

Voltages are mentioned, but I don't read German..... you may be able to translate with Google or some other tool.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
michael hurd is offline  
post #11 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 09:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

They're fine. Some of the newer inexpensive Class D pro amps (e.g. Peavey IPR, Crown XLS DriveCore, Behringer iNuke) are more energy-efficient, but the Berry's are fine.

Not quite sure the idle dissipation ( where the amp is operating most of the time ) of a class D is as efficient as an AB or class H amp...... so calling it energy-efficient is kind of a misnomer.

According to Wiki, class D efficiency is around 50% at low power levels, and 90% or so above 1/4 power.

Anyone have a kill-a-watt to measure idle usage?

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
michael hurd is offline  
post #12 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 09:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,786
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Have there been any bench tests of the iNuke line, though?

Do they do close to what they say they do?

The EP line is a known quantity.

Also, the recent KC blind subwoofer test indicated that the NU3000 doesn't have as much headroom as a Dayton SA1000.

Admittedly, the SA1000 is not a bad amp at all. Chuck's test of its predecessor HPSA1000R notwithstanding, I've had two independent sources who have measured them tell me that they're good for ~750W/4Ω continuous, ~950W/4Ω for a little while, and ~1.8kW/4Ω burst.

But that suggests to me that the iNukes might be less than meets the eye. I.e. iNuke 3000 ≈ IPR1600.

That's very debatable...and I don't believe it true myself. The 8ohm rating of the Inuke dsp 3000 is weak even by the manufactorers stats, but I listened to both Dayton amp and Inuke amp on the CHT subs on Sunday following the meet and the Inuke was significantly more powerful and bass heavy (as it should be with a +4 boost to 20hz on the DSP). The Dayton also likely would have shut itself off during the audition material we used from what I've heard.

I have both an Inuke DSP 3000 and EP4000 and the difference in max spl before clipping is fairly minimal - I'd guess a dB or two tops. I decided I liked the Inuke DSP 3000 better because the DSP is really quite a fantastic tool on the Inuke.

That said the EP4000 is a known quantity and a great amp for the money too.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #13 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 09:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Drisco Z71's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Axtell/Lincoln Nebraska
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Hunter View Post

Ill keep checking the site, see if more used ones come in. Sadly right now the lowest price I see for one is $300.

click the used tab, they currently have 6 EP2500's listed for $200 or less.
Drisco Z71 is offline  
post #14 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 10:00 PM
Senior Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I saw an Inuke the other day in a music shop. I could not believe how light it was, it could be lifted with one finger. Photos of the interior left me wondering where the heatsink is. I'm having a hard time getting my head around the idea that is could be even slightly comparable to Europower.

What are the Inuke fans like?

I'd like to see some tests done.
paulspencer is offline  
post #15 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 10:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,786
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulspencer View Post

I saw an Inuke the other day in a music shop. I could not believe how light it was, it could be lifted with one finger. Photos of the interior left me wondering where the heatsink is. I'm having a hard time getting my head around the idea that is could be even slightly comparable to Europower.

What are the Inuke fans like?

I'd like to see some tests done.


Here's my comparison.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1375633

The Inuke fan is roughly on par with the EP4000 fan noise - stock for stock - if anything the Inuke fan is a little quieter, but it ramps up to crazy mode with a demanding load, thought it slows down nearly immediately after the load is reduced. I felt the need to replace my EP4000 fan, but not the Inuke fan. The fan isn't silent by any means, but when you put it in your equipment rack the inuke's stock fan is tolerable. On the EP4000, I didn't think the stock fan was quite as tolerable.

here is a thread with a few owner's opinions on the inuke and a couple foreign test links.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1359039

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #16 of 35 Old 01-30-2012, 10:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Looneybomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4,668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 23
For subwoofer use, the EP2500 is fine. The new Class D amps with their SMPS's are more efficient, but if used for mains, or any other full range speaker, I would stay with the EP's and their class-h topology. The EP2500 is a good sounding amp and is what I use for my L/R's.

YID DIY
Looneybomber is offline  
post #17 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 01:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Mrkazador's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,839
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drisco Z71 View Post

click the used tab, they currently have 6 EP2500's listed for $200 or less.

I don't see it either... Only one for $299.

There is an IPR 1600 for $200.
Mrkazador is offline  
post #18 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 05:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coctostan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 1,960
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 128
I usually suggest the EP2500/4000 in sub threads because it is a tested and vetted known quantity at a good price. I know exactly what kind of power it will do at different loads and I don't have to estimate based on manufacturer's specs.

The iNuke's are probably nice amps, but I don't have measured specs. I heard something about a test but I haven't seen it. It could be better or it could be worse.

Of course, the integrated DSP can be a very nice feature.
coctostan is offline  
post #19 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 06:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drisco Z71 View Post

You can get used EP2500's for $200 all day long on guitar centers website. If you wait for a deal to come along you can do even better, I think mine was $170 in perfect condition. Guitar center is a used amp goldmine that few home theater guys seem to know of.

++ That. Picked up a Behringer FBD 1124 for $39. $10 for the additional warranty and $13 shipped. Still just $62.

Craigslist and Amazon can be your friend. The Crown XLS 602D I purchased was $129 DELIVERED

Given the prices of current Crown, Peavey, Behringer Class D stuff I can't see myself paying above the $150 mark for an EP2500/4000.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #20 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Shadow Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
:O. If I could get a ep2500 for $150 I would pay that right now!

Sidenote, you guys a great, I am loving all of this info!!!
Shadow Hunter is offline  
post #21 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Shadow Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Hunter View Post

:O. If I could get a ep2500 for $150 I would pay that right now!

Sidenote, you guys a great, I am loving all of this info!!!

Lol, duh, I see it now. Hard to see while on my phone.
Shadow Hunter is offline  
post #22 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 07:57 AM
Advanced Member
 
wth718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Liked: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Hunter View Post

Lol, duh, I see it now. Hard to see while on my phone.

I'm glad you do, cuz I still don't. The only one I could find was a factory restock for 299.


Edit:

I found it.
wth718 is online now  
post #23 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 09:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jinjuku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Hunter View Post

:O. If I could get a ep2500 for $150 I would pay that right now!

Sidenote, you guys a great, I am loving all of this info!!!

There is a current classified that makes my point. It's an EP2000 and it's $175 and split the shipping. Or you can get the IPR 1600 used from GC for $200.

Sorry but it's a no brainer considering that you can at least purchase a warranty from GC.

I wouldn't pay a penny above $125 for the EP2000.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

Jinjuku is offline  
post #24 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 10:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,259
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 63
i purchased a used EP2500 from GC last year for roughly 170. did the fan mod, and it still work perfectly.

these things are not gonna die unless you abuse it with a hammer.
smokarz is online now  
post #25 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 10:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,786
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 561
I killed a one month old ep4000 with a modified fan with my cap pair (2ohm*) playing dubstep at clip light tapping levels. It took less than 10 minutes. Bellied up and won't turn on ever again.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #26 of 35 Old 01-31-2012, 11:29 AM
FOH
AVS Special Member
 
FOH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I killed a one month old ep4000 with a modified fan with my cap pair (2ohm*) playing dubstep at clip light tapping levels. It took less than 10 minutes. Bellied up and won't turn on ever again.

Well, yeah, Dubstep @2ohm, @clipping is bad enough! Then, take away it's ability to thermally dissipate!

On the previous topic; yes, we do need better verification of the INuke's actual measured performance, 'vis-Ã*-vis' the EP4k,... etc. The value however, seems very high.

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
FOH is offline  
post #27 of 35 Old 02-01-2012, 08:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
DS-21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

On Behringer's website page for the INuke DSP3K, there is a link to a .PDF German Pro Sound review of the amp. [Tools4Music] The file is too big to attach here.

Voltages are mentioned, but I don't read German..... you may be able to translate with Google or some other tool.

Dankesehr! Ich habe diesem Test irgendwie noch nicht angeschaut.

Does this magazine do a lot of amp tests? Its archives are available with an online subscription of 15EUR.

But to the Berry iNuke, their power measurements were 20ms bursts at 1Kz, and they got 2x465W/8Ω, 2x870W/4Ω, and into 2Ω the protection kicked in to limit output to 2x900W after 3 seconds.

Into an 8Ω load, it does show a low-end rolloff. Maybe half a dB at 20Hz, and -2dB at 10Hz. For those who care about such things.

The Input sensitivity came out to .85V (~35.5dB gain), which makes the non-DSP variant a good pairing with the unbalanced miniDSP.

They also measured the IPR-1600 it seems. An interesting line: "Die Endstufe zeigt dabei eine ebenso konstante zeitliche Leistungsabgabe wie die Peavey IPR-1600." (The amp has similar continuous power output as the IPR-1600.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Not quite sure the idle dissipation ( where the amp is operating most of the time ) of a class D is as efficient as an AB or class H amp...... so calling it energy-efficient is kind of a misnomer. According to Wiki, class D efficiency is around 50% at low power levels, and 90% or so above 1/4 power.

While your number strikes me as in the right ballpark, I disagree with your interpretation of it. I think you're drawing an inference from incomplete data.

While I don't know of any relevant published data for home amplifiers, here are some representative data from car amp tests that I think should translate to home/pro amps.

Class D:
Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch: 83.0%
Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch: 75.8%
Efficiency at 10 watts per channel, 4 ohms: 60.4%
Idle Current: 1.5A

Class AB:
Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch: 60.8%
Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch.: 50.2%
Efficiency at 10 watts per channel, 4 ohms: 21.7%
Idle Current: 0.9A

(Links are to the first available test reports I could find numbers for max power efficiency, low power efficiency, and idle current. Neither amp was cherry-picked as an exceptionally good or bad example of its type, though it may in fact be so and I just don't know it. I've never used either one.)

I couldn't quickly find the same numbers for a class G/H amp.

These measurements, which are consistent with what I remember reading previously in older reviews, show that the class D amps have, if anything, a greater relative efficiency advantage at low power than at high power.

True, here the Class D amp does have significantly higher idle current. I don't know what to make of that, though I suspect (without any basis beyond intuition, admittedly) that the fact that the Class D amp example is ~twice as powerful as the class AB amp example has something to do with it. For comparison, here is a class H car amp that's similarly powerful to the class D amp above. The measured idle current is likewise similar. However, unless one keeps her/his amps on all the time (as opposed to triggering them to turn on upon use, and turn off when one is done) I'm not sure idle current is especially important. Especially if one runs the subs high enough that they are always going to be playing a little bit. If the subs are crossed under 40Hz or so, then idle current is a bigger factor.

Also, as a piece of anecdotal evidence, the only AVR I've seen (which means there may be others, but I don't know about them) that advertised meeting the EPA's Energy Star requirements was Panasonic's old line with the TI (nee TacT) PurePath Class D chip-amps. Perhaps no other makers submitted their products, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Anyone have a kill-a-watt to measure idle usage?

I think Noah Katz did on his IPR-3000, and thought the results were a bit high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

That's very debatable...and I don't believe it true myself.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't read the thread too closely, but I should go back to see if I read what I thought I read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The 8ohm rating of the Inuke dsp 3000 is weak even by the manufactorers stats,

Not sure what that means. One would expect an amp with a great power-supply to be close to the theoretical ideal of doubling power (i.e. the same voltage output) with every halving of impedance. At any rate, 400+W/8Ω is in my mind pretty darned good power for ~300 USD.

--
"In many cases there aren’t two sides unless one side is 'reality' and the other is 'nonsense.'" - Phil Plait
Serious Audio Blog 
Multichannel music (and video) urban loft living room system 
DS-21 is offline  
post #28 of 35 Old 02-01-2012, 09:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,786
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 259 Post(s)
Liked: 561
DS-21, yeah you're right that the 8 ohm power is right where it should be in line with four and two ohm on the inuke. Touché.

The ep4000 claims an 8 ohm rating of 750 watts per channel (vs 440 watts per channel) which was my thought when I made the post that the inuke 8 ohm was weak.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is online now  
post #29 of 35 Old 02-01-2012, 08:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 2,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post


Does this magazine do a lot of amp tests? Its archives are available with an online subscription of 15EUR.

But to the Berry iNuke, their power measurements were 20ms bursts at 1Kz, and they got 2x465W/8Ω, 2x870W/4Ω, and into 2Ω the protection kicked in to limit output to 2x900W after 3 seconds.

Into an 8Ω load, it does show a low-end rolloff. Maybe half a dB at 20Hz, and -2dB at 10Hz. For those who care about such things.

The Input sensitivity came out to .85V (~35.5dB gain), which makes the non-DSP variant a good pairing with the unbalanced miniDSP.

They also measured the IPR-1600 it seems. An interesting line: "Die Endstufe zeigt dabei eine ebenso konstante zeitliche Leistungsabgabe wie die Peavey IPR-1600." (The amp has similar continuous power output as the IPR-1600.)



While your number strikes me as in the right ballpark, I disagree with your interpretation of it. I think you're drawing an inference from incomplete data.

While I don't know of any relevant published data for home amplifiers, here are some representative data from car amp tests that I think should translate to home/pro amps.

Class D:
Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch: 83.0%
Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch: 75.8%
Efficiency at 10 watts per channel, 4 ohms: 60.4%
Idle Current: 1.5A

Class AB:
Maximum Efficiency at full 4 ohm power per ch: 60.8%
Maximum Efficiency at full 2 ohm power per ch.: 50.2%
Efficiency at 10 watts per channel, 4 ohms: 21.7%
Idle Current: 0.9A

(Links are to the first available test reports I could find numbers for max power efficiency, low power efficiency, and idle current. Neither amp was cherry-picked as an exceptionally good or bad example of its type, though it may in fact be so and I just don't know it. I've never used either one.)

I couldn't quickly find the same numbers for a class G/H amp.

These measurements, which are consistent with what I remember reading previously in older reviews, show that the class D amps have, if anything, a greater relative efficiency advantage at low power than at high power.

True, here the Class D amp does have significantly higher idle current. I don't know what to make of that, though I suspect (without any basis beyond intuition, admittedly) that the fact that the Class D amp example is ~twice as powerful as the class AB amp example has something to do with it. For comparison, here is a class H car amp that's similarly powerful to the class D amp above. The measured idle current is likewise similar. However, unless one keeps her/his amps on all the time (as opposed to triggering them to turn on upon use, and turn off when one is done) I'm not sure idle current is especially important. Especially if one runs the subs high enough that they are always going to be playing a little bit. If the subs are crossed under 40Hz or so, then idle current is a bigger factor.

Also, as a piece of anecdotal evidence, the only AVR I've seen (which means there may be others, but I don't know about them) that advertised meeting the EPA's Energy Star requirements was Panasonic's old line with the TI (nee TacT) PurePath Class D chip-amps. Perhaps no other makers submitted their products, though.



I think Noah Katz did on his IPR-3000, and thought the results were a bit high.



Thanks for the clarification. I didn't read the thread too closely, but I should go back to see if I read what I thought I read.



Not sure what that means. One would expect an amp with a great power-supply to be close to the theoretical ideal of doubling power (i.e. the same voltage output) with every halving of impedance. At any rate, 400+W/8Ω is in my mind pretty darned good power for ~300 USD.

I have no idea how many amplifiers they test for the magazine, just noted the test when I was browsing the webpage for the amp. 15 euros works out to about $20 Canadian, not bad at all if you can read and interpret the magazine.

The numbers I pulled up were from Wikipedia, and are by no means comprehensive results. Class D idle current appears to be higher from what I have read, as well as 'low power' efficiency.

Yes, I did infer that without a lot of research, it is as you say, "incomplete".

On another note, I believe it was Mark Seaton that did a bit of a duty cycle analysis for 'typical' home theater subwoofer usage. Let me see if I can dig up the post. Basically, it boiled down to that we only need full power for a small percentage of the time, and most of the time it was low power or no signal.

Some of us are atypical though....

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
michael hurd is offline  
post #30 of 35 Old 02-04-2012, 06:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tesseract67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 2,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
The iNUKE NU3000DSP has been tested, results showing 315 watts per channel @ 1000 Hz (stereo) and 230 watts a side @ 40 Hz. Both ratings into an 8 ohm load.

At the KC GTG, the Berry amp was run without the limiter on. This, combined with the 4 dB boost @ 20 Hz led to heavy clipping, I believe.

It did sound pretty good with the DSP boosting the bottom, at least until the amp ran out of gas.

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea." -Robert A. Heinlein

Volunteer Moderator for the Chase Home Theater forum

tesseract67 is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off