$2000 for 4 drivers, what would you do? Details inside. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 10:14 AM
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Fi stuff rolls off too steeply and that takes them out of the running

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post #62 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Fi stuff rolls off too steeply and that takes them out of the running


Yeah, because +/- 2.5 Hz is unacceptable...



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post #63 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Yeah, because +/- 2.5 Hz is unacceptable...



Bosso

Lol, yeah. I had proposed an eight SSD15 option a page or two back. Unfortunately, one WILL need to use signal shaping for the Fi's. Now that I think about it, probably for the SP4's as well. Some drives are less peaky and in need of the shaping. Might be a consideration for the OP. Sounds like he wants good extension up to 120hz.

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post #64 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 01:14 PM
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Eek Bosso that's a squiggly line! Just kidding. What drivers?

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #65 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Lol, yeah. I had proposed an eight SSD15 option a page or two back. Unfortunately, one WILL need to use signal shaping for the Fi's. Now that I think about it, probably for the SP4's as well. Some drives are less peaky and in need of the shaping. Might be a consideration for the OP. Sounds like he wants good extension up to 120hz.

For all intents and purposes i think the alpines 15" are better drivers than the SSD15 AND theyre cheaper.

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post #66 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

Eek Bosso that's a squiggly line! Just kidding. What drivers?

That's Bosso's multi-sub bass system using SSD15's (iirc) and he custom signal shaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

For all intents and purposes i think the alpines 15" are better drivers than the SSD15 AND theyre cheaper.

Yes! Thank you. I agree.

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post #67 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

Eek Bosso that's a squiggly line! Just kidding. What drivers?

As Scott said, that one is using the SSDs, but my point has been that it's mostly irrelevant. I've used dozens of drivers. The result is always the same. The driver is a small part of the equation with the assumption that it'll throw to its spec and is built using proper glues and materials.

For example, what if you're seeing a peak at 100 Hz? You're gonna notch it out with PEQ, or your low Le, flat to 1000 Hz driver is working against you.

Subwoofer means subwoofer. Enough displacement and power and a flexible native FR to work with your room = low end. The crossover octave is gonna need post EQ work, regardless of the subs driver.

Here's the Tumult MKI & SSD (both high Le, roll off at 100 Hz) and the AV15H & Tumult MKI (both low Le, flat to >200 Hz) and a Mystery-15:



The Tumults had the most displacement, therefore the most low end. MKI vs MKII? I'll take either.

It's the system and how it's integrated with the room far more than it's the drivers top end roll off.

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post #68 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Hmm. Well. I'm going to call Tuesday on some nicely priced b&cs. If everything's legit' I'm going to bite on 4 of the 6" coil model. It'll take some eq'ing to get the bottom end up but I think they'll do alright down to 20Hz. If not I'll sell them and save for the LMS-Us, or some other heroic 18s.
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post #69 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a question for you. Though I know the b&cs will never be ideal for HT, they should be vastly better than what I have now, don't you think?
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post #70 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 06:35 PM
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Yeah. For sure.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #71 of 90 Old 02-18-2012, 06:58 PM
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Yeah. For sure.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #72 of 90 Old 02-19-2012, 11:23 AM
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"Though I know the b&cs will never be ideal for HT, they should be vastly better than what I have now, don't you think?"

the b&c's have about twice the excursion, so they will have about 6db more spl on the low end. 6db is what you would get if you doubled the subs and amp that you have now. that is certainly an upgrade.

btw, the misco in your enclosure are actually 3-4 db more sensitive around the mid-upper bass, so you will need to re-eq things.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #73 of 90 Old 02-19-2012, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Scott, LTD.

When the b&cs have had significant wear in the man who designed my XO will come over and measure them. He does electronic measurement and builds modules for my XO 3.

I don't suppose I'll need a HPF, since the MarcoTech has one at 10Hz on the input stage. Still one concern that has been raised about the b&cs is excursion damage in a sealed enclosure, but I seem to recall ricci stating that they are very unlikely to reach xmech due to their stiff suspension.

What percentage of HT tracks contain signals below say 15Hz? Perhaps a HPF would be prudent.

Have you gents ever heard an instance of the b&c's neo being thermally de-magnetized during normal operation? Ricci also stated great lengths had been taken to keep the motor cool.
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post #74 of 90 Old 02-19-2012, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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After a quick peek into another thread I thought I would tell you all again how grateful I am for all your time and feedback. Yes, I know you all have lives outside of ballet.
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post #75 of 90 Old 02-19-2012, 01:01 PM
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I do not see how the misco's could possibly be more sensitive than the B&C's...Motor of 95 versus 320? Not likely in the real.

The B&C's have about 6.5L of effective displacement. About as much as the longest throw 15's available. So 4 of them will be equal in effective displacement to 4 30-40mm xmax 15's. Not too shabby. In the areas not displacement limited each of the B&C's will be equal in headroom to atleast a couple of the 15's.

I would completely not worry about the B&C's thermally. You will not do anything compared to what they would see in a club system. Mechanically they are very robust and will let you know when they are out of stroke well before any damage.
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post #76 of 90 Old 02-19-2012, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Good to know, ricci. Do you think they'll sound nice up to 120Hz rolled off at 10db per?

That being the priority am I making a good choice? I know low extension will suffer, but output and quality between 30Hz and 120Hz are more important to me.
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post #77 of 90 Old 02-19-2012, 02:54 PM
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here are the b&c vs. misco, 4 drivers, 28 cubic feet total, 1 watt.
LL

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post #78 of 90 Old 02-20-2012, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So the miscos respond flatter to a lower level :/
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post #79 of 90 Old 02-20-2012, 02:57 PM
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Lower level, being the key words there.

The B&C would dominate at high power.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #80 of 90 Old 02-20-2012, 03:05 PM
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that is what i said in #72. below about 30hz or so, the spl is constrained by how much excursion it has. the b&c has about twice the excursion of the misco, so 6db more capability down there.

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post #81 of 90 Old 02-21-2012, 10:40 AM
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Well the Misco's do model with a higher middle bandwidth sensitivity, boosted no doubt by the hefty qtc of almost 1 in that enclosure size. Judging from the impedance graph the top end should be pretty flat up past 200Hz. Interestingly the notes in the impedance chart have some significantly different parameters.
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post #82 of 90 Old 02-22-2012, 08:06 AM
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Just an option. I know Fi Car has been discussed but here's what I'm thinking.

4x FiCar Q18s, Fully upgraded, comes to less than $1800 shipped. (the Q's are the SQ drivers)

2 of them in 14 cubic foot enclosure actually looks pretty good. QTC is 6.1. Starts rolling off around 100 Hz, sure, but I think with some sort of EQ and ample power you could flatten it out.

They will take 1500W (EACH!) in this enclosure without hitting excursion limits, all the way down to 10 Hz.

Here's some raw SPL numbers with 1000W per driver, 2 drivers, 14 cubic foot sealed.
80 Hz- 127 dB
60 Hz- 126 dB
40 Hz- 123 dB
30 Hz- 120 dB
20 Hz- 114 dB
15 Hz- 109 dB

And that's 2 drivers in 1 box- it would be more with more power, and more with a 2nd box. Under budget, never hits excursion limits, (should) sound really good, and gets....loud.
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post #83 of 90 Old 02-22-2012, 02:54 PM
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Turn those boxes into Infinite Baffle manifolds and load them with eight 18" Ficaraudio IB3s.

Distortion-free sound down into the single-digits.
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post #84 of 90 Old 02-23-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Great ideas! I may be buying a house in the next couple months. If I do that I will definately look into the IB option.
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post #85 of 90 Old 02-23-2012, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djkest View Post

Just an option. I know Fi Car has been discussed but here's what I'm thinking.

4x FiCar Q18s, Fully upgraded, comes to less than $1800 shipped. (the Q's are the SQ drivers)

2 of them in 14 cubic foot enclosure actually looks pretty good. QTC is 6.1. Starts rolling off around 100 Hz, sure, but I think with some sort of EQ and ample power you could flatten it out.

They will take 1500W (EACH!) in this enclosure without hitting excursion limits, all the way down to 10 Hz.

Here's some raw SPL numbers with 1000W per driver, 2 drivers, 14 cubic foot sealed.
80 Hz- 127 dB
60 Hz- 126 dB
40 Hz- 123 dB
30 Hz- 120 dB
20 Hz- 114 dB
15 Hz- 109 dB

And that's 2 drivers in 1 box- it would be more with more power, and more with a 2nd box. Under budget, never hits excursion limits, (should) sound really good, and gets....loud.

Super appealing, and without room gain I'm guessing?
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post #86 of 90 Old 02-23-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwz414 View Post

Great ideas! I may be buying a house in the next couple months. If I do that I will definately look into the IB option.

I've got my IB3's on order right now, usually takes them about a month to build them. It'll probably take another month for me to install them. 4 of them in a 1800cu. ft. room... I'll make a thread when I'm done.

The theory behind an IB is solid, and most people like the sound they make. (Some people don't, though) The issue, as you pointed out, is that it's a permanent custom install that often requires holes in the floor, wall or ceiling.

I can totally understand why some people don't like the IB sound. I have a small IB in my car, using the trunk for the backwave. It is incredibly clear and musical and blends so well with the main speakers. However, that is NOTHING LIKE a traditional boxed car subwoofer. It can't blow the windows out of the car or be heard a mile down the street, because a single IB driver just doesn't have the guts, and that's all that could be fit in my car. A house-based IB doesn't have that problem, since you can use as many drivers as you want. The "box sound" will still be lacking though, and that's a matter of taste.
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post #87 of 90 Old 02-23-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwz414 View Post

Super appealing, and without room gain I'm guessing?

Yes, and the room gain will help you at lot from ~30 Hz on down. And again that's only 2 drivers total. 4 should be 5-6 dB louder?
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post #88 of 90 Old 03-19-2012, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I have saved enough coin for 4 LMS 5400s. If I could pick your collective brain on just a few things

First, can they be mounted vertically as in my current enclosures? I've heard some drivers are not meant to be mounted vertically.

Second, would you guys order from parts express?

Third, in the event that something goes awry with one of the drivers, does LMS handle any repair needs?

Fourth, I have a 10Hz HPF filter on the input stage of my Crown Marco 5000; does anyone know if I can defeat it? If not this is a real limitation o the HT aspect.

Fifth, do you think the Crown/2 LMS/14cu ft/ dual opposed/sealed, is a decent marriage?

Lastly (for now I'm sure), do you think that a 3/4" thick Baltic adapter plate will be rigid enough, or should I try and use more material?
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post #89 of 90 Old 03-19-2012, 10:05 AM
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1) Yes

2) Yes, all the time

3) TCSounds ... and yes

4) No idea. Could sell amp and get a newer/better one

5) Fo sho!

6) I'd probably double up on the baffle. The LMS-U is really heavy!

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post #90 of 90 Old 03-19-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hahaha, thanks, Scott
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