Gone over the deep (bass) end? Dual sealed LMS 5400 build - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Nice subs!

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Originally Posted by ScooterX View Post

Very nice build. I hope my build comes close to the quality that yours shows. If so, remember, Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Thank you both for the words of encouragement. This is my first attempt at building a box. Not even close to the likes of things I've seen on this board though so I was hesitant to even post the build process/pictures.

You know how people often say that the product looks much better in person than in the pictures and that you really need to see them to truly appreciate them? Well, that's definitely NOT the case here. I think the boxes probably look a lot better in the pictures than in real life.

It's mostly the quality (or more accurately, the lack thereof) of my staining process that I'm not to happy with. Depending on how they sound after adding a DSP and second amp, I'll see if I want to build another set of boxes for them or just to sand them down and try to stain them again. Maybe a curved box for my next attempt.

That's well off in the distant future though. Now that they are done, I need to concentrate on finishing my house remodel then the whole which amp/DSP combo for this setup needs to be addressed as well. Just a very brief listening session last night showed a definite improvement over my previous setup. I'll have to re-position the subs to the appropriate positions and rerun Audyssey tonight and see what I get. Also need to figure out how to connect all my measurement equipment and use REW.
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post #32 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 03:05 PM
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Did you use a pre-stain wood conditioner just before you applied the stain? If I don't use it I get a blotchy appearance.

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
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post #33 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 03:15 PM
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Nice build bro!
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post #34 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhisafa View Post

What's the best wire to use to wire these subwoofers?

I used some BLUE JEANS CABLES for my build. It's 10ga and about a $1 a foot.
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post #35 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 03:23 PM
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Did you make the panel miter cuts on the table saw? I think they look great overall, nice work.
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post #36 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Did you use a pre-stain wood conditioner just before you applied the stain? If I don't use it I get a blotchy appearance.

Yes, I used a a wood conditioner. Applied coats per the instructions until the wood grain was no longer being raised. It took three coats.

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Nice build bro!

Thanks!
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post #37 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you make the panel miter cuts on the table saw?

Yes, I used my table saw for the cuts. If there's a better way to skin this cat please let me know.

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I think they look great overall, nice work.

Thanks.
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post #38 of 57 Old 03-06-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Thank you both for the words of encouragement. This is my first attempt at building a box. Not even close to the likes of things I've seen on this board though so I was hesitant to even post the build process/pictures.

You know how people often say that the product looks much better in person than in the pictures and that you really need to see them to truly appreciate them? Well, that's definitely NOT the case here. I think the boxes probably look a lot better in the pictures than in real life.

It's mostly the quality (or more accurately, the lack thereof) of my staining process that I'm not to happy with. Depending on how they sound after adding a DSP and second amp, I'll see if I want to build another set of boxes for them or just to sand them down and try to stain them again. Maybe a curved box for my next attempt.

That's well off in the distant future though. Now that they are done, I need to concentrate on finishing my house remodel then the whole which amp/DSP combo for this setup needs to be addressed as well. Just a very brief listening session last night showed a definite improvement over my previous setup. I'll have to re-position the subs to the appropriate positions and rerun Audyssey tonight and see what I get. Also need to figure out how to connect all my measurement equipment and use REW.

I dont think ive ever seen a build finished with stained plywood that HASNT looked blotchy. So its not like you did it wrong, i think thats just how stained plywood works.

IMO the only way to have a good finish with plywood is to veneer it or paint it.
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post #39 of 57 Old 03-07-2012, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

I dont think ive ever seen a build finished with stained plywood that HASNT looked blotchy. So its not like you did it wrong, i think thats just how stained plywood works.

IMO the only way to have a good finish with plywood is to veneer it or paint it.

The blotchiness is not really visible in person. That's not what disappointed me. It's the tiny bits of debris that somehow got on there during the urethane application process. That and the fact that BB doesn't have much grain character when stained.

There are a few areas of blotchiness, but that was because of me and not the wood. For my next project, I'll test out different types of wood with the stain before I use it for the build. That way I'll know what it'll look like before I build it. Or I can go the veneering route. Sounds difficult and complicated though. I suppose I can test veneering on these boxes and build a new curved box to veneer.
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post #40 of 57 Old 03-07-2012, 01:15 PM
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Ya, it's really hard to keep all of the dust out of the finish. Some guys have built a booth out of plastic and PVC, and then put several filters on a box fan and blew air through the filters into the booth? That way you maintain positive pressure. They said it worked pretty well.

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Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
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post #41 of 57 Old 03-07-2012, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Ya, it's really hard to keep all of the dust out of the finish. Some guys have built a booth out of plastic and PVC, and then put several filters on a box fan and blew air through the filters into the booth? That way you maintain positive pressure. They said it worked pretty well.

I don't think it was dust, but that's an excellent idea. I think it was more of the foam brush is used for the urethane application falling apart and leaving bits of itself behind. It wasn't obvious while it was wet, but noticeable once it was dry.
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post #42 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 12:38 AM
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what kind of screws did you use to mount the drivers?
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post #43 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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what kind of screws did you use to mount the drivers?

Black 10-24x2.5"" cap screws. I installed T-nuts on the other side of the baffle. Used blue Loctite to keep them from vibrating loose and reduce the chance of air leaks through the threads.
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post #44 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 08:08 AM
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Cant wait to see how they measure up. If there are any nulls, those JL's will be great fillin subs. This is a great thread to promote multiple sub tuning if it comes to that point..
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post #45 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Cant wait to see how they measure up. If there are any nulls, those JL's will be great fillin subs. This is a great thread to promote multiple sub tuning if it comes to that point..

Just finished rerunning Audyssey last night with the two 5400s and the two JLs up front and the Revel moved to the back. Couldn't move the JLs to the sides yet as I have no cables run to those locations yet. Current cables are too short to reach so I'll have to do that at another time. Not only that, but I don't have any external DSPs yet so I figure locating them all in one spot would make it easier for Audyssey to calibrate.

I'll try to figure out REW tonight and see if I can get some measurements. I ran a quick sweep last night running just the 5400s and it was nearly ruler flat from 10Hz - 200Hz. I think I don't have my measuring equipment setup right yet though so I don't think the measurement is correct.
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post #46 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Took me a while to figure out REW but I think I've got it down enough to get a couple basic measurements. Let me know what you think.

Here are the measurements of the 5400 individually and then combined in their current location in the front of my room, centered underneath my display and in between the front speakers.
The Revel B15a has been moved to the rear wall behind the couch.
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post #47 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

I would double check some frequency sweeps with the W7s before committing them to MBM duty. There may not be an issue with Le and ragged upper bandwidth response, but it is something to consider depending on the chosen MBM bandwidth.


Here are the REW measurements of the 10w7s. Do you think they would do well as MBMs? This would determine the new amp I will be getting and what model MiniDSP.
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post #48 of 57 Old 03-08-2012, 08:45 PM
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post #49 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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you dont need mbms with 5400s.

The 5400s seem to drop off above 120Hz for some reason. I changed the LPF on my receiver to 250 and this didn't seem to make a difference. As you can see in the second graph of the 10w7s, when they are plugged in to the LFE outputs, they also drop off at ~120Hz. When plugged in to the LF/RF outputs, they seem to do well up to at least 200Hz.

I was thinking of using a MiniDSP to add these to my front mains so I can run them large. Using the mains (Revel Performa F52) down to ~250 or so then letting the 10w7s handle everything else below that. This should take the load off my mains.

Second option would be to split the 10w7s into separate boxes and use them as subs to even out the bass response. They would be small enough to put them along the side walls. I currently have the two 5400s co-located under the TV on the front wall (center), the Revel B15a at the center point of the rear wall. These are the only places that these subs will fit. I may be able to split the two 5400s on the front wall, but I'd have to pull the mains out a bit.

Will a balanced MiniDSP 2x4 be able to handle all 5 subs? Assuming I leave the 5400s co-Located in the center I assume that I can consider them a single channel. I am going to get the LG FP14000 clone to power them. I'm guessing I will need the 4Way Advanced plugin for this application or the 10x10 if I go with the 2x8.

If I go with using the 10w7s as MBM I will need a second MiniDSP. Is getting the 2x8 with the more powerful DSP be beneficial at all or will I be just as well served getting another balanced 2x4? The cost difference is negligible (including building a box for the 2x8) in the overall scheme of things.

All the hardware and plugin options are quite confusing to me. Haven't had a chance to read up on all the features and forums yet.

Been too busy with 16 hour work days and trying to somewhat finish the house remodel so that I can get a refi. As soon as I get time to breathe, I'll get more measurements of the complete system to see what will yield the best results.
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post #50 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 11:47 AM
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Beautiful subs, even if the finish didn't turn out "furniture quality" to your eyes. I really like the joint style. I haven't seen that too often. Congratulations on a solid build!

As for the crossover points and EQ, you're overthinking this. As notnyt said, you don't need midbass modules with the 5400. You shouldn't need any other subs or woofers no matter what. They're flat up past 500hz, though why anybody would use them that high is beyond me. Unless there just isn't enough SPL for you, in which case you'd simply add more 5400s, fuggedaboutit!

Also, your Revels have a -3dB point of 37hz. There's really no need to cross them above 120hz, imho. They're not straining, and they wouldn't be straining at 80hz.

I think you're probably on the right track with a 2x4 balanced miniDSP. But, imo, forget about all those other subs. I can't think of any scenario where you'd need or want them with the 5400s.
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post #51 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Beautiful subs, even if the finish didn't turn out "furniture quality" to your eyes. I really like the joint style. I haven't seen that too often. Congratulations on a solid build!

Thanks nube.

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As for the crossover points and EQ, you're overthinking this. As notnyt said, you don't need midbass modules with the 5400. You shouldn't need any other subs or woofers no matter what. They're flat up past 500hz, though why anybody would use them that high is beyond me. Unless there just isn't enough SPL for you, in which case you'd simply add more 5400s, fuggedaboutit!

Also, your Revels have a -3dB point of 37hz. There's really no need to cross them above 120hz, imho. They're not straining, and they wouldn't be straining at 80hz.

I think you're probably on the right track with a 2x4 balanced miniDSP. But, imo, forget about all those other subs. I can't think of any scenario where you'd need or want them with the 5400s.

I already have the Revel sub and the two 10w7 drivers. Just wanted to make use of them and see if they would improve the sound. If I didn't use them I'd have to either sell them or just pack them away somewhere. Either way it would be a waste in my eyes.

When I get a huge block of time, I'll do some measurements with just the 5400s up front. Then I'll try them with each of the other subs then all three. I'll see which gives me the flattest response and go from there. Using just the 5400s would obviously be the cheapest route obviously.

Thanks for the input.
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post #52 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 02:21 PM
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post #53 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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If you find they are unnecessary in your HT, perhaps you have other listening areas that would benefit from those other subs?

Unfortunately not. I suppose if I had to, I can always buy more equipment and put it in my bedroom.
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post #54 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 03:05 PM
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Dude you have the perfect situation to use either the revel OR the dub7's for filler subs, I really think if you do it right, you will be AMAZED at the smoothness of your bottom octaves. Granted using delays and whatnot will be needed, but the benefit here is the filler subs dont need to be run as hard as the main subs, I think the recommended setup is for the fillers to be -10db's from the mains.

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post #55 of 57 Old 03-16-2012, 03:57 PM
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I doubt it. To run them near the same levels of the LMS sub will mean when you push the system, they'll be crying.
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post #56 of 57 Old 03-30-2012, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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To run them near the same levels of the LMS sub will mean when you push the system, they'll be crying.

I'm going to have to blindly agree without any testing. Makes sense that a 10" sub will not be able to keep up with a monster 18" sub with over 4x the power. That's why I have decided to use them as MBMs for music listening when I don't need to turn on all my subs.

Order LG clone - check.
Order 3 balanced MiniDSP 2x4s - check.

I just purchased one 4 way advanced plugin. Can I use one for all three DSPs or will I need to purchase on plugin per DSP? One will be used for the three subs. The second will be for the adding the 10w7s to the mains and the third will be for two subs in another setup.
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post #57 of 57 Old 03-30-2012, 01:57 PM
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The response from the ultras are much better. I'd just sell the JL stuff and run the ultras.

$0.02
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