What is excactly is "Mid-Bass Punch" ???? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 129 Old 01-14-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Cool, maybe you can answer something I wonder about whenever I see one - why do the turbines have so few blades (the ones around here have 3)?

Seems like most of the wind between them would be wasted.

I'll play! smile.gif

Mr. Trep will give us the correct answer, but I bet it's because 3 blades are lighter than 4, and with less mass, it takes less wind to get them going.
+++

AVS Speaker Translation for Mr. Cocostan (the current King of the Analogy!) : It's the same reason a speaker which is more efficient takes less power to produce the same SPL! It's not as clever as a "sports car on ice" example, but it's all I got. How am I doing? biggrin.gif

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post #92 of 129 Old 01-14-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Cool, maybe you can answer something I wonder about whenever I see one - why do the turbines have so few blades (the ones around here have 3)?

Seems like most of the wind between them would be wasted.

Last OT post. There is always a balance. And yes, more blades "technically" improve efficiency.; four is better than three. However, there is a point of diminishing returns and increased cost/complexity. And there is a massive plummet between 3 and 4 blades. How how often and the average speed of the wind is a big factor as well. In short, the turbine nearly doubles in cost for a fraction of improvement. Also, three blades looks better than 2 or 4; but i'm biased biggrin.gif

Image from my last trip to Rudong China at a 5MW offshore turbine.



Fun fact: A tower with 80 meter blades has rough diameter of 170 meters with the hub. When it is rotating ~12 RPM, the tip speed is nearly 100 m/s or 200 MPH! It is freaking awesome seeing that wiz right past your face at deck level and realizing that its downright scary.

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #93 of 129 Old 01-14-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Mr. Trep will give us the correct answer, but I bet it's because 3 blades are lighter than 4
The longer the blades the more force that can be realized at the hub. That's because the blades are levers, and like all levers the longer they are the better they work. There's a set limit how much weight the structure can support, and you get higher efficiency from three longer blades than a larger number of shorter blades of the same overall weight.

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post #94 of 129 Old 01-15-2014, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

The issue is that the most advanced DSP known to man (or at least known to this man) can't overcome the physics of wave cancellation from reflected sound. Not even Trinnov can do that. There is simply no replacement for fixing issues in the physical design. You could have Danley Jericho horns that are capable of 150db, but if they have a poor response in the midbass region due to nulls caused by reflections those 150db will be for naught.

Do you have measurements of your frequency response at the listening position? There is no substitute for measurements. I'm not doubting you. I'd bet you have good frequency response in the midbass region, but it has nothing to do with being sealed or having 4 10" woofers/channel (besides possible directivity benefits derived from that short array). In all likelihood the real reason you are getting good midbass response is primarily due to your in-wall placement mitigating SBIR effects. It is very easy to conflate cause and effect that are unrelated in audio design. In fact, the entire audiophile industry is based upon this ease of fallacy. (Somebody will see that you have had good midbass results from 4 MW182's in sealed and think "that is the recipe"...it is no more the key than painting your cabinets a certain color is the key)

An inwall installation has some similarities to a car installation with the exception of your distance to the speaker and the proximity of the other boundaries of a car (the back window of a car might be 2-4ft away, but the back wall of a home might be 10-20ft away). Cars are generally near-field listening environments whereas a home theater is not near-field at least in the midbass region and up. The inwall setup takes care of some issues in the midbass region but there are still many more.

Yes, driving a sports car on ice is fun if you can get some traction. Of course if you are trying to get up a hill, you will just spin your tires. You could double the horsepower and just spin the tires faster, no different than adding more watts or drivers to cover the midbass region if it isn't making its way to the listener.

Everyone wants to find an answer that takes no creativity, effort or skill to overcome. It is much easier to throw lazy money at a wannabe silver bullet and enjoy the placebo effect.

PS Tobcar, that last line was not meant for you, but for the general audience who typically wants to know which speaker or amp will solve problem X. I've been guilty of that in the past myself and I'd bet the same could be said for most enthusiasts.

Edit: Tobcar, I just watched the ice racing video and the first thing it says is "28 sports cars prepared for ice" and they show studded tires. That is analogous to having proper speaker placement and room treatments. There is a big difference between a Lambo on studded tires and one on summer tires.

You are right of course. I have bought a calibrated EMX-7150, linear mic amp and cables and will calibrate everything once the room is finished, both using convolution curves and by listening and measuring to channels by themselves and in different combinations to try to figure out the right setup . Trouble is, architectural consideration don't allow me to change much in terms if either placement or damping. It seems good now and I've worked in as much room treatment as I could into the room design, but some things have been sacrificed To appearance: I would have like to angle the walls upwards slightly and surface them completely in acoustic plates, but of course this was not a popular idea... There is also a lot of glass in the room, I plan to counter that somewhat with heavy lamellgardins/slat curtains.

In the end, I will have to do tune things as well as I can given these limitations.

There is one more thing I can do if I need it: The midbass arrays are actually built as eight separate sealed boxes, and all drivers have wires going into the central electronics cabinet. Currently, I'm only using 13 channels (5 Tweeters, 5 Midrange, 2 Midbass, 1 Sub), so I can buy more amps and add another 3 midbass channels if I need more granular control of drivers. Maybe splitting duties into upper and lower midbass too: I could have two drivers running 190-400 Hz and six drivers running 100-190...
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post #95 of 129 Old 01-16-2014, 11:31 PM
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After re-reading the thread, it seems a lot of people think the most important part of the punch is 50-100 Hz.

I've been thinking I should try crossing the midbass arrays at 50Hz and check how far down the Utopia 6.5" can really reach with authority.

Perhaps I should try running the midbass arrays from 70-250Hz instead, and check if the LMS Ultra adds or detracts from the punch if I still cross it upwards at 100Hz

so that all the bass drivers deliver energy into the critical region. Maybe also checking how a little delay affects intceraction between channels.
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post #96 of 129 Old 01-16-2014, 11:47 PM
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higher.

" Perhaps I should try running the midbass arrays from 70-250Hz instead"

something like that sounds about right.

and it is also related to the rolloff (or increase) of the driver out past the crossover point.

it is also related to the sensitivity of the driver. it obviously needs to be loud and uncompressed.

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post #97 of 129 Old 01-16-2014, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

IME punch takes 2 things....
#1 it has to be LOUD!
#2 it is not going to sound right no matter how much you crank the subwoofer while using whimpy mains.
Whimpy mains? Does bookshelf speaker with 6.5" woofer consider whimpy? How about those MTM speakers with dual 6.5" woofers? Whimpy too?
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post #98 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 12:01 AM
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"The horns seem to have a certain tactile quality and I'm still figuring out what it is. Could it be just the ability to hit hard without compression? Or could it simply be that I'm running them hotter? Or is there some other characteristic?"

front loaded horns mostly have a rising frequency response. so even if crossed over at X, additional kick above X is slipping through.

horns are also very efficient. >10% is not uncommon for efficiency in the upper bass, so minimal if any power compression and/or what i'll call 'inductance braking' just to jarble some marbles.

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post #99 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 02:05 AM
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LTD02, please do not jarble my marbles, I do not have many left! biggrin.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #100 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 02:32 AM
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then go ahead and throw in the towel:



http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/indtra.html

:-)~

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post #101 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 03:52 AM
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Never!! Look easier when you add the squigilly lines and numbers biggrin.gif

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #102 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 05:34 AM
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To me, "mid bass punch" is the speakers/system ability to both create pressure and stop in a quick way without too much distortion in the mid-bass freq area.
The same counts when talking about higher SPL levels, but the system needs to be able to handle higher watts/excursion.

When talking about "mid bass chest punch", I find the criterias just the same, only the SPL needs to be loud enough and the frequencies needs to be the ones that resonates with your chest.
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post #103 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 07:00 AM
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I still think it is funny that everyone wants to believe that horn or pro driver or 10 car audio drivers or more SPL capacity is the answer when all the capacity, sensitivity, efficiency, amp power etc measns nothing if the response isn't there. Maybe some think that it is completely coincidence that the 50-200hz region is the most difficult region to get a good response.

Paraphrasing an old friend "Less wank, more data". Anybody who wants more midbass first post measurements.
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post #104 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 07:57 AM
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Im curious if its due to a true lack of midbass a perceived lack of midbass, or simply a matter of some guys, myself included want more of it just because we like the feel of it similar to a person who just has to have that fast car. I will be measuring my system and will know what the cause was/is.

Have a Happy and safe New Year!!!
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post #105 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I still think it is funny that everyone wants to believe that horn or pro driver or 10 car audio drivers or more SPL capacity is the answer when all the capacity, sensitivity, efficiency, amp power etc measns nothing if the response isn't there. Maybe some think that it is completely coincidence that the 50-200hz region is the most difficult region to get a good response.

Paraphrasing an old friend "Less wank, more data". Anybody who wants more midbass first post measurements.

+1

Frequency response is very important, you need emphasis in the 100-200Hz region for this while keeping things smooth. SBIR/reflections is a problem, direct sound is far more effective at the perception of punch IMO, I believe this is one of the reasons why outdoors is where people perceive the best punch/kick.

I will add that time domain behavior is also important, both the systems native characteristics and the effects of the room.

That said I will say that on a level playing field (outdoors) absolutely nothing can "kick" like a short straight FLH.

Just my 2 cents smile.gif
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post #106 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 316 View Post

Im curious if its due to a true lack of midbass a perceived lack of midbass, or simply a matter of some guys, myself included want more of it just because we like the feel of it similar to a person who just has to have that fast car. I will be measuring my system and will know what the cause was/is.

That is possible, but in your case you already have two high sensitivity, high power handling 15" woofers. Think of it like an 800hp car (your setup) vs a 900hp car (the horn). Now let's assume both cars are on a crappy tire and can't get traction. They will both perform poorly and maybe be just as slow as a 400hp car. That is a rough analogy, but until the car hooks, or in the case of speakers in a small room, you can get a good frequency response, you won't be able to tell the difference.

If you have response nulls screwing up the 50-200hz range there is no amount of "more" that will help. Not EQ, not sensitivity, not amp power. Oh and very very few setups get that range right in a small room. Of course, every outdoor concert gets it right because that range is very easy outdoors, but has nothing to do with the fact that horns or huge amps or pro drivers are used.

You need two things from abotu 50-200hz:

1. Uncompressed SPL capability
2. Good frequency response

Unless you are using pretty wimpy bookshelf or hifi speakers, the first point is taken care of. It is the 2nd point that is much more difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post

+1

Frequency response is very important, you need emphasis in the 100-200Hz region for this while keeping things smooth. SBIR/reflections is a problem, direct sound is far more effective at the perception of punch IMO, I believe this is one of the reasons why outdoors is where people perceive the best punch/kick.

I will add that time domain behavior is also important, both the systems native characteristics and the effects of the room.

That said I will say that on a level playing field (outdoors) absolutely nothing can "kick" like a short straight FLH.

Just my 2 cents smile.gif

People perceive the best kick outdoors because it is not a modal environment and there are no nulls making a mess of 50-200hz. It is that simple.

How are you leveling the playing field? Number of drivers? Amp power? Budget? Size of cabinet? What about bandwidth? Sure, with the same driver and power over a limited frequency range a horn will win, but it isn't that simple.
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post #107 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

People perceive the best kick outdoors because it is not a modal environment and there are no nulls making a mess of 50-200hz. It is that simple.

How are you leveling the playing field? Number of drivers? Amp power? Budget? Size of cabinet? What about bandwidth? Sure, with the same driver and power over a limited frequency range a horn will win, but it isn't that simple.

That is why I noted outdoors, not indoors. As before I agree with your point about frequency response. However I think there is more to punch than simply frequency response based on my experiences, frequency response is a part of the problem but not the only issue.

Do you believe that you need a ruler flat response for best punch?
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post #108 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 07:10 PM
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I'm not suggesting ruler flat. I'm suggesting that the modal and SBIR issues need to be dealt with. From there it can be eq'd to taste. If yo really want an intense kick, boost that region. Of course if you have multiples nulls in the region as most people do no amount of boost will help.

Of course there are other factors such as if someone is trying to get that kick from a set of 4" woofers or with extremely low sensitivity and inadequate power.

The problem is that the switch to a more adequate speaker is typically still disappointing because the now ample headroom in that region is wasted on the rooms unmitigated modal issues.

Take a mid bass horn and a 15" pro woofer, eq match their responses. Then play them outside with a listening distance of 10'. The subjective differences will be small.
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post #109 of 129 Old 01-17-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Of course there are other factors such as if someone is trying to get that kick from a set of 4" woofers or with extremely low sensitivity and inadequate power.
What woofer size would you recommend?
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post #110 of 129 Old 01-18-2014, 05:44 AM
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"What woofer size would you recommend?"

it depends on how loud you want your uncompressed peaks.

this is where the whole problem starts. p.a. mains use high sensitivity 12's and 15's because that (or equivalent) is what it takes to get some pretty good mid-bass spl going even in a smallish venue.

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post #111 of 129 Old 01-18-2014, 06:27 AM
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What woofer size would you recommend?
That depends on the crossover frequency to the next element. The larger the driver the lower it needs to crossover for reasons of dispersion. With a twelve that's generally no higher than 1.5kHz, with a fifteen no higher than 1kHz. If the minimum low frequency capacity of the next higher element demands a smaller woofer be used and it lacks adequate displacement to reach the desired output simply use two or more, vertically aligned. You can get just as much output from a line of fours as you can from one fifteen, if you use enough of them. The main reason for using larger woofers is that it tends to be the less expensive option to arrive at a given system displacement.

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post #112 of 129 Old 01-18-2014, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
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What woofer size would you recommend?

Like these guys said, "it depends". There are so many different considerations. Yes, it does require the ability to play 100db+ peaks uncompressed peaks at the listening position. That means tiny 4" woofers are out but it doesn't mean you have to stacks of 110db/w sensitive mid bass horns either.

Headroom is nice but there is a point where diminishing returns really take over. The easy part is reaching a point of adequate headroom in the 50-200 range.

In a small room (small acoustically which means any room in even the biggest home), the big hurdle isn't output capacity in that range. It is the ability to combat the room issues which will humble even the most capable loudspeakers.
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post #113 of 129 Old 01-18-2014, 11:10 PM
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here is what mr. c. was talking about earlier. in this case, before room treatment and after. no sense in looking at the speaker if the room is doing this to your response.




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post #114 of 129 Old 01-19-2014, 03:50 AM
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That.....is a serious improvement.....source?

JSS
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post #115 of 129 Old 01-19-2014, 06:26 AM
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That's an extreme case for sure but it shows what I'm referring to.

In subwoofers threads, you rarely see people post measurements beyond their subwoofers crossover point or with the mains running. The subwoofers system is typically viewed in a vacuum. This makes sense because the LFE output channel lends itself to this along with the fact that things become much more difficult when you get up above 100hz.

There is so much emphasis on being able to produce 130db at 10hz that it is laughable. That is fun for sure but I'd much rather get 50-200hz right. Gladly that is not an either or choice.

I see guys with both subwoofers and mains capable of 130db above 40hz complain of not enough mid bass kick. That is not a capacity issue.

There are quality 8" pro woofers that can deliver enough SPL for "kick" in a home if care is taken to get good room response in the 50-200hz region (obviously a subwoofer is needed below 80hz and adequate amp power for the mains... But a mega horn or 21" pro driver is not required).
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post #116 of 129 Old 01-22-2014, 02:05 AM
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jss, http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/561241-when-acoustic-correct.html

not sure of all the details, just tried to find an extreme case to highlight the point.

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post #117 of 129 Old 01-22-2014, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

There is so much emphasis on being able to produce 130db at 10hz that it is laughable. That is fun for sure but I'd much rather get 50-200hz right. Gladly that is not an either or choice.

I see guys with both subwoofers and mains capable of 130db above 40hz complain of not enough mid bass kick. That is not a capacity issue.

^^^ This. In fact, I consider this question asked and answered. Q: I have speakers with reasonable SPL capabilities, but am still lacking midbass punch. What can I do? A: Look to your room (its your room $%^*@$$). Measure, analyze and solve. Then and only then look towards increasing your speakers capability.

First some easy reading (not much math) that explains the highly germane Schroeder frequency (it is what this whole point is about):
The Schroeder frequency:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1

Some less light reading:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_modes

JoshK on most other audio forums
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post #118 of 129 Old 01-22-2014, 07:00 AM
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I was thinking about this a bit more. Some people really really like midbass punch so it would make sense to boost the 50-200hz region. I believe some pro sound guys have mentioned that this sometimes occurs in live sound to give drums more "kick".

There are two catches in a typical HT.

First, you can't boost where you have nulls and most setups have significant nulls in that region.

Second, most only have EQ capability on their LFE channel which typically doesn't run higher than 80-120hz. Most curves posted show rising response from 80hz down to the lowest the system is capable of but then the slope flattens somewhat from 80hz and above. This is effectively creating a dip in the midbass region even if the room is not an issue. Now, there are ways of eq'ing and manipulating levels that likely wouldn't require EQ on the L/C/R but it is vital that the blend from LFE to mains is smooth or the 80-200hz region will be thin.
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post #119 of 129 Old 01-22-2014, 07:18 AM
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I just reread that first link I posted above (part 1 and 2) and it is a very nice simple explanation that is seriously overlooked by the typical enthusiast. Guess what? There exists a region between the primary mode and the schroeder freq where the room is wreaking havoc on your sound system. For most typical rooms this is the area between (40-50hz) and (100-200hz). Guess what? That is midbass. That is the area where we are sensitive to what we perceive as bass, midbass punch, whatever you want to call it.

Below the primary mode your room actually increases the level of bass (room gain) above this it is super uneven. Above the Schroeder frequency speakers behave more predictably. However, as Cocostan says, most are boosting their subs below 80hz, but given this behaviour that can actually produce worse results. What you need to do is figure out the behaviour between 50hz and 200hz and then try to treat it first, eq second (like salt/pepper, just a dab).

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post #120 of 129 Old 01-22-2014, 07:24 AM
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That is exactly what I'm talking about AJ. It is almost always a room issue first because no amount of output or EQ can overcome it. It just happens that most homes have dimensions that wreak havoc on the midbass frequencies. Live venues and cars are the other two areas where people experience sound reproduction and rarely is midbass missing. It is the room.
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