What is excactly is "Mid-Bass Punch" ???? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Can someone please explain to me excactly what is "Mid-Bass Punch" . I hear about this alot ,and seems to be very desireable.... just can't figure it out ??

Everyone seems to after a Flat FR ,... so how would a sub with (Mid Bass.Punch) FR gragh, look any different from a sub without ??.
... Or is the Punch from Not having a flat FR ? ,but having a hump in the Mids ???????
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post #2 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 07:36 PM
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Mid bass punch is the frequency that your chest resonates at, the 30-50hz range or so.
A flat response is what most subs deliver, but something happens when you put that sub in your room. The room creates problems and the response is skewed. Nulls prevent the response from being the same across the listening position. Peaks are easy to deal with, they can be reduced with EQ. Nulls can only be dealt with by moving the sub to another location where it produces the flattest response, then more subs will be needed to fill in the null from another location, 3 to 4 subs will be needed.
This is why i feel buying a single "Super Duper" sub is a mistake, unless you plan on getting more than one. Manufacturers will claim their sub has a flat response, and it does, til you plop it down in your room.
So split up your budget to purchase at least two and hopefully they will hit you in the chest as you would like...
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post #3 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 08:10 PM
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I'm glad you asked the question. It would be nice to hear a room with verified mid base punch. I may have it, I may not....
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post #4 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 08:31 PM
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with respect to the member from new york, i'd place the mid-bass punch in the 50-150hz region.

it requires uncompressed sound at "live" spl, which is up around 120db for the peaks.

NO ROOM RESONANCES. once past that...

high sensitivity drivers can get there more quickly than low sensitivity drivers, but if you put enough low sensitivity drivers and amps behind them, you will get there too.

there are tradeoffs though. most home theater folks like very deep extension and the high sensitivity drivers typically fall on their butts for that, so it is a tradeoff.

mid-bass performance is a complex interaction of motor strength (low qe), impedance location (which determines how much current is actually drawn through the motor), and raw sensitivity at the target frequency given the design (sealed, ported, horn), and distortion control (suspension/bl/induction linearity) etc.

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post #5 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

with respect to the member from new york, i'd place the mid-bass punch in the 50-150hz region.

it requires uncompressed sound at "live" spl, which is up around 120db for the peaks.

NO ROOM RESONANCES. once past that...

high sensitivity drivers can get there more quickly than low sensitivity drivers, but if you put enough low sensitivity drivers and amps behind them, you will get there too.

there are tradeoffs though. most home theater folks like very deep extension and the high sensitivity drivers typically fall on their butts for that, so it is a tradeoff.




mid-bass performance is a complex interaction of motor strength (low qe), impedance location (which determines how much current is actually drawn through the motor), and raw sensitivity at the target frequency given the design (sealed, ported, horn), and distortion control (suspension/bl/induction linearity) etc.


Which is the biggest tradeoff for HT : Having very Deep Bass but less Mid Bass or the opposite ?? Where is the Most LFE content in Movies ??
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post #6 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

Can someone please explain to me excactly what is "Mid-Bass Punch" .

It is one of those audiophool terms that has little to no real meaning. It is whatever the person using it wants it to be within the referent of their own experience.
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post #7 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 10:05 PM
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"Where is the Most LFE content in Movies ??"

30-35hz.

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post #8 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Mid bass punch is the frequency that your chest resonates at, the 30-50hz range or so.
A flat response is what most subs deliver, but something happens when you put that sub in your room. The room creates problems and the response is skewed. Nulls prevent the response from being the same across the listening position. Peaks are easy to deal with, they can be reduced with EQ. Nulls can only be dealt with by moving the sub to another location where it produces the flattest response, then more subs will be needed to fill in the null from another location, 3 to 4 subs will be needed.
This is why i feel buying a single "Super Duper" sub is a mistake, unless you plan on getting more than one. Manufacturers will claim their sub has a flat response, and it does, til you plop it down in your room.
So split up your budget to purchase at least two and hopefully they will hit you in the chest as you would like...

so true about flat subwoofers in my room my rythmik is +15db from 14-30hz
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post #9 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 10:49 PM
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Deep bass shakes the room, mid-bass you feel on your body.

I've had a quad 18" IB sub for awhile but until I recently added four 15's to my main speakers I wasn't getting that mid-bass punch.
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post #10 of 129 Old 03-03-2012, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It is one of those audiophool terms that has little to no real meaning. It is whatever the person using it wants it to be within the referent of their own experience.

THIS^^^

Mid bass punch is somewhere along this green line...



If it's higher in frequency along that line, you're not talking about a subwoofer.

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post #11 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 04:50 AM
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http://www.hiendfi.net/hfdownload/Mi...er%20X-719.pdf

here is a review of a bookshelf speaker, the revier divides the sound spectrum into several octaves

Octave One - 20-40 Hz - Sub Bass
Octave Two - 41-80 Hz - Low Bass
Octave Three - 81-160 Hz - Mid Bass
Octave Four - 161-320 Hz - Upper Bass
Octave Five - 321-640 Hz - Lower Midrange
Octave Six - 641-1280 Hz - Midrange
Octave Seven - 1280-2560 Hz - Upper Midrange
Octave Eight - 2561-5120 Hz - Low Treble
Octave Nine - 5121-10240 Hz - Treble
Octave Ten - 10241-20480 Hz - Upper Treble
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post #12 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It is one of those audiophool terms that has little to no real meaning. It is whatever the person using it wants it to be within the referent of their own experience.

I'll buy what you're selling.

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post #13 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

this^^^

mid bass punch is somewhere along this green line...




bosso

:d :d :d
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post #14 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ltd02 View Post

with respect to the member from new york, i'd place the mid-bass punch in the 50-150hz region.

It requires uncompressed sound at "live" spl, which is up around 120db for the peaks.


+1
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post #15 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

It is one of those audiophool terms that has little to no real meaning. It is whatever the person using it wants it to be within the referent of their own experience.

Not necessarily. If you hear/feel it you know what it is, all that remains is to quantify it. I've heard/felt it hundreds of times at major concerts, and since I had an RTA in hand I quantified it as well: 50 to 70Hz at 105dB or more. 105dB gives a goodly nudge, 115dB a major whallop right in the chest, not unlike an actual punch.

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post #16 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not necessarily. If you hear/feel it you know what it is, all that remains is to quantify it. I've heard/felt it hundreds of times at major concerts, and since I had an RTA in hand I quantified it as well: 50 to 70Hz at 105dB or more. 105dB gives a goodly nudge, 115dB a major whallop right in the chest, not unlike an actual punch.

You have missed the point: it varies between individuals and their experience so that the range is too great to communicate it well. I've had people tell me their 4" Fostex widerange has great 'midbass punch'.
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post #17 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

I've had people tell me their 4" Fostex widerange has great 'midbass punch'.

Obviously they were not looking at an RTA/SPL meter when they made their pronouncement. IME if it doesn't feel like it was delivered by Manny Pacquiao it doesn't deserve to be called punch. A pat, maybe.
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post #18 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Obviously they were not looking at an RTA/SPL meter when they made their pronouncement.

Anyone who voluntarily listens to a 4" Fostex is going to find measurement an anathema.
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post #19 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Anyone who voluntarily listens to a 4" Fostex is going to find measurement an anathema.

Anyone who listens to a 4" Fostex is receiving an aural enema.

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post #20 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Anyone who listens to a 4" Fostex is receiving an aural enema.

Touché or perhaps tushé.
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post #21 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

THIS^^^

Sort of but not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post


If it's higher in frequency along that line, you're not talking about a subwoofer.

Bosso

That's more like it. At the very lowest (in frequency) the 'midbass' region is at the upper end of what a subwoofer would be reproducing. Only half the equation though because "midbass punch" has just as much to do with SPL as it does frequency.

It kills me when I hear something like, "this XYZ sub 'hits' so hard....blah blah blah." I'd say, "well yeah, that sub was probably louder than whatever you're comparing it to."


My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #22 of 129 Old 03-04-2012, 10:27 PM
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That's the problem with so many systems now, people have mains that can barely handle down to 60hz, so the sub is crossed at 80hz, right where the kick drum fundamental and other "hit you in the chest" sounds occur. So the sub isn't really doing the mid-bass, but neither are the mains, and you get a gap. Then people crank the sub to get the punch back but that just "catches" a bit of the 80-120hz range at the expense of the sub bass and bass range being overly loud.

I think a good target is for mains that can handle down to 40hz, at 105db each at the seats (which is something like 112-118db@1m depending on the distance). This just isn't possible with the typical 8" or 10" woofer mains with dome tweeters. Then still run them "small" so the remainder goes to a sub that can handle 10-80hz 120db at the seats.
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"Not necessarily. If you hear/feel it you know what it is, all that remains is to quantify it. I've heard/felt it hundreds of times at major concerts, and since I had an RTA in hand I quantified it as well: 50 to 70Hz at 105dB or more. 105dB gives a goodly nudge, 115dB a major whallop right in the chest, not unlike an actual punch."

that sounds right on and that is at the listening position, which means much higher at source depending on setup. if i had to take a guess, this is why your tuba horns are enjoyed by so many...its the first time that builders hear uncompressed, full-reference, spl bass in the home environment.

my comment about extending up to 150hz is that lead guitar can often "vibrate" one's body in that region and you can really 'feel it', so perhaps that is a little different type of mid-bass.

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post #24 of 129 Old 03-05-2012, 02:29 AM
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I thought you guys were talking about Oklahoma fish eye soup until I read the thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

my comment about extending up to 150hz is that lead guitar can often "vibrate" one's body in that region and you can really 'feel it', so perhaps that is a little different type of mid-bass.

150Hz is 3rd harmonic of the typical chest cavity resonance.

Before EQ was in my signal chain (back in the 'dark time'), I remember getting amazing 'punch' from my first horn loaded sub. When I got around to measuring, I had a 15dB peak, right at 60Hz....fav scene at the time was TF1; Megatron transforming and flying out of the Hoover dam, great impact when his engines light up...

It wasn't until I flattened it out with EQ that the kick disappeared, as I wasn't listening any higher than -15 to -20dBRef with the equipment I used to have, too much distortion with only 87dB sensitive mains....with only AVR power, you pretty much need 95+dB sensitivity to hit reference, at least in my room.

JSS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse S View Post

That's the problem with so many systems now, people have mains that can barely handle down to 60hz, so the sub is crossed at 80hz, right where the kick drum fundamental and other "hit you in the chest" sounds occur. So the sub isn't really doing the mid-bass, but neither are the mains, and you get a gap. Then people crank the sub to get the punch back but that just "catches" a bit of the 80-120hz range at the expense of the sub bass and bass range being overly loud.

I think a good target is for mains that can handle down to 40hz, at 105db each at the seats (which is something like 112-118db@1m depending on the distance). This just isn't possible with the typical 8" or 10" woofer mains with dome tweeters. Then still run them "small" so the remainder goes to a sub that can handle 10-80hz 120db at the seats.

Jesse,

You hit my issue head on. I have a dedicated movie room where in walls were desired (WAF), plus the speakers I wanted to replace the in walls with are way too large for my front area. I'm currently working on tearing out part of the sheetrock and installing enclosures to get better mid bass response from them. If that doesn't provide me what I'm looking for I thought of building 2 dual 8 inch woofer cabinets for each side, where I would use the mini DSP to run the in walls and 8s as mains with the in walls handling ~>150HZ and the 8s 150 -40Hz. Then my IB sub for everything below 40.
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post #27 of 129 Old 03-05-2012, 12:23 PM
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IME punch takes 2 things....

#1 it has to be LOUD!

#2 it is not going to sound right no matter how much you crank the subwoofer while using whimpy mains. It's not all exaggerated bass levels that creates that live sound body hammering. Any of you guys ever heard a snare drum recording that hits you in the face and chest? Mixing guys like to put some emphasis on the 125-250Hz octave for the shell sound off of the snare drum. Even though it usually involves heavy EQ boosting in the 50-160Hz area the lower midrange and highs still have to come to play as well since those give the apparent sharpness to the leading edge of the attack.
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post #28 of 129 Old 03-06-2012, 05:55 AM
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Sounds like a reason to do an outdoor GTG with some real Pro PA gear and do some blind testing. A snare, bass drum and some floor toms..throw in a bass guitar and some good pluckin..... Yes, pluckin hahahahahahaha

Wi can set it up for us...
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post #29 of 129 Old 03-06-2012, 06:02 AM
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Wi can set it up for us...

Where and when

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #30 of 129 Old 03-06-2012, 06:19 AM
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I run subs ~70 down, kickbins 70-300, mains 300 up btw. Class H on subs, class A/B on the kicks.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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