Sundown Zv3 18" and 18Sound 21LW1400 added to data-bass - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Sundown Zv3 18D1:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=41



18Sound 21LW1400:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=42



Excursion vids:
http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...-video-thread/

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #2 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 03:14 PM
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Bam!! Both are excellent drivers that tested very well by Josh Ricci.

I've had my eye on the Sundown driver since it brought up by WiSounds in the SSD18 group buy thread. It has ever so much grown on me and looks to be the real deal for those looking for a upper-budget high excursion 18" sub for HT/car audio.

As one can see, it is very well vented as opposed to the current crop from Fi. The z3 also utilizes dual demodulation rings. I particularly like the high roll surround (sexy!) and one little detail I liked was that the cone was sewn to the surround. Classy. Ricci notes in his brief review on Databass that it is extremely quiet during excursion. Very good! Seems to be built very well. I like!

I believe now that if I get any more 18's for my HT room it will be a Sundown z3 18.

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post #3 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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There will be some more extensive output testing coming. It will keep up with the LMS-U for displacement, and it is half the price.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #4 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

There will be some more extensive output testing coming. It will keep up with the LMS-U for displacement, and it is half the price.

"You're g-damn'd right!"


My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #5 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 05:36 PM
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the excursion vids are cool.

should make the thread just the vids though, without random user comments along the way or the vids will end up buried.

also, the qe/qt specs on the pro woofs are lower than the manufacturers because they run them through a 2 hour heat cycle or something like that prior to measuring. whoever heard of a 21" woof with a qe of 0.16? :-)

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post #6 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 06:37 PM
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Really nice; 2 of these guys to your door for nearly the same money as a single LMS...

Comparing sim to Mach V UXL-18...

Thanks for submitting to Josh for review!


Larry
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post #7 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 06:54 PM
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Me likey the sundown driver for sure.

For those in the "poor man's class, (like me)" to have a driver that can keep up (even close) with the ultimate woofer the lms "ultra" makes me tingly down there...

But for half the price of the sundown posted, they have a fifteen inch offering (in the sa series) that to me looks to be a awesome price performance driver...

think on this 4 fifteens with 38 mm xmax for the same price as 1 ultra..

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post #8 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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With these measured specs in hand, I ran some sims, in the vented cabinets I have built:

21LW1400 Factory vs Measured:
Attachment 241798

Zv3 18 Factory vs Measured:
Attachment 241796

Zv3 Measured vs 21LW1400 Measured:
Attachment 241797


Zv3 is beast mode.
LL
LL
LL

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #9 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 10:26 PM
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so how does the zv3 have the 21 beat? doesnt seem so by that graph?

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post #10 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 10:38 PM
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That sundown is badass, tends to remind me of the maelstrom X
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post #11 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 10:40 PM - Thread Starter
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It is within a couple of db, and 3" less overall diameter. I won't know for sure until I plunk it in the cabinet. In simulation the B&C should have spanked the SoloX, in real life the SoloX outperformed it... for my application. The Zv3 will displace more, the 21 is ~7db more efficient. The fact the sim traces are so close is pretty sweet.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #12 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 10:58 PM
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This goes back to a discussion I had a while back with a few other guys of just that "real world" performance that cant really be explained by graphs. I feel like sometimes there is a missing piece that hasnt yet been quantified. Tony123 and I seem to have "heard/felt" it but I guess it is something that really cant be put on a graph... I know there is absolutely no SCIENCE to that statement but hey, there are lots of us Im sure that go on more than just fact...

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post #13 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 11:11 PM
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Isn't it possible that the B&C hasn't "broken in" fully yet vs the Kicker?(it is used, yes?) The stiff suspension would absorb some power for sure translating to some of the output discrepancies between the two. Just a thought.
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post #14 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I ran 10-19hz at 45v through the B&C overnight before mounting, so it has a head start. I wouldn't think break in would impact it running out of displacement though. Unless it has to stretch out the suspension a bit more. Maybe Ill run it freeair for a couple days at a higher voltage before the show and see if it settles in better. Right now my plan is definitely SoloX, and either Zv3, 18Sound, or B&C in the other cabinet. I'll have to experiment a bit. The big show is April 14th, and renegade parties Vol 2 is the 15th. Oops.

Also WinISD calculated Vd:
B&C: 2.9
18Sound: 2.85
Zv3: 3.42l
SoloX: 3.49

Going by the specs, there is a good shot the 18Sound could be slightly louder than the B&C because of higher efficiency with very close displacement. Won't know till I mount it.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #15 of 42 Old 03-26-2012, 11:38 PM
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It's great to have options for sure. Look forward to hearing your impressions on the other drivers in your cab.
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post #16 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 04:47 AM
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What kind of power handling do these have? I didn't see that in the review.
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post #17 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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21LW1400 is rated 1600w aes. Zv3 is a conservative 1500w.


I'll be throwing it 1600 on the 14th. Easy enough to recone if I fry it, but with all the venting I doubt I'll have a problem.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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WiSounds,

Have you cycled an LMS Ultra through your driver assessment exercises?

I don't believe you have and was merely curious; you are touching upon some of the drivers which are intended for the same application with the Sundown and Kicker products.

May be something to consider as you continue your quest; I know the B&C and the LMS are nearly the same money now.

I'm still thinking, but the results from Josh's testing on your Sundown sample have me interested...

Larry
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post #19 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 10:44 AM
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I'm a bit puzzled by Wi's problems with the B&C but yeah if you start pushing it past about 35mm peak to peak it starts complaining and making a loud tapping sound. I'm just wondering what sort of signal is causing that in a 25Hz vented cab because mine were crazy in a similar tuned cab and most music doesn't really have much below 25Hz even DnB. Meanwhile the soloX has similar cone area but can handle much longer excursions so it will still sound ok. That is not a surprise it does have a lot more displacement.

Wi could you tell if it was overexcursion below tune or above tune? Do you use rumble filters? Are you sure that the tune is actually 25Hz? What bandwidth do your subs cover to up top? I thought you mentioned 70Hz somewhere? If your really just trying to get 1 octave as loud as possible say 25-50Hz or so you might want to look into either TH's or maybe even a 4th order BP.

BTW the Zv3 has a lot of inductance so it's top end rolls off quite a bit. I'm just not sure how much yet. Need a true outdoor measurement. Hopefully this weekend. Looks like a serious <70Hz performer regardless. I might have to check out the SA 15 as well.
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post #20 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Larry,

Honestly, I see no reason to spend $900 on a driver, especially the LMS-U. The B&C was disappointing, but that is also party due to my application. It may have been worth it when it was around $600 before the price hike, but not at it's current tag.

I know I'll mushroom the LMS-U thanks to low mechanical clearances, and I'd prefer to not buy new top assemblies. When TC first hit PE the pricing was reasonable, now it is out of sight. I picked up an Epic12 that clanked way too easily, I picked up 4 LMSR12's 2 for me and 2 for a good friend. We fried one of them the first show limited to 1kw. One of my LMS-R 12 the entire suspension detached from the frame. It is within warranty but I have to ship it out at my cost to be glued and returned, or go buy some super glue and do it myself. For the price, I would think a new top assembly would be appropriate given the severity of the manufacturing failure. I just don't trust the product at all. On top of my own experiences with lackluster results now the LMS-U specs are found to be short. I see no reason to look at TC drivers as serious competitors in the market any longer.


The Zv3 18" I can recone myself if need be, and it is half the price of the LMS-U with equivalent displacement, and better service.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #21 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Ricci, I run a 20-30hz HP filter at either 12, 24, or 48db/oct. What frequency and slope depends. I'm like a bartender, start the night at 20 at 12db/oct end at 30 at 48db to build in some extra headroom. For this one was 20hz at 24db/oct. I wanted to see what thy could do.

My subs run 0-80.

It wasn't noisy over-excursion, just ran out of gas. I only noticed it because the SoloX was just that much better.

The cabs as built are 9.7ft3, with a 30hz tune. This is why I will generally end up at 30HPF at the end of the night. Excursion plots for the SoloX and Zv3 run out of Xmax at 18hz at 3200w, so safe with the 20hz HPF. The B&C runs out of its rated 15mm at 23hz.


35hz up, they were pretty well matched. Under that the SoloX won. The B&C seemed a bit tighter and more subtle at the top end of the bandwidth as expected, but the SoloX just had the subbass brutality i need from these cabs. Cabs were equivalent and power was equivalent, it was all up to the drivers to perform as they saw fit. SoloX did way better than I thought it would, the 21SW152 did worse than I thought it would. I had preconceived notions that were opposite of what played out.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #22 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 11:12 AM
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Hate to come off sounding insensitive but... I think you need way more bass units, Wi. You're running them hard as it is. Maybe by the end of the night, your bass system is hot and running into serious power compression. Double or quadruple up!

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #23 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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I will, once I settle on a design. That has been the plan all along. Find a driver and alignment that provides as much output from 20-80 and replicate like rabbits. I have tried FLH, Sealed, and Ported thus far. I'm getting the inclination that sealed my be it, a TH has always been in the back of my mind, but Ricci mentioning 4th order....

I have made the mistake of building alot of something trusting that it will do what it says, now I build one or 2 and find their limits to assess their value. The SoloX in the ported cabinet is the best performing single cabinet so far.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Cool thing about your current vented design is how compact it is and that it would be very easy to do a cluster with. I'm sure once you decide on which driver to go with you'll be happier with the total output and SQ.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #25 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 11:35 AM
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Great to see so much documentation and real world observations.

Great work Josh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

This goes back to a discussion I had a while back with a few other guys of just that "real world" performance that cant really be explained by graphs. I feel like sometimes there is a missing piece that hasnt yet been quantified. Tony123 and I seem to have "heard/felt" it but I guess it is something that really cant be put on a graph... I know there is absolutely no SCIENCE to that statement but hey, there are lots of us Im sure that go on more than just fact...

There is actually tons of "science" to your statement. Anyone who's had to do a high school or college lab report has had to include an "observations" section. No set of data is complete without observations from performing the tests. Those who did more than a few lab reports in school probably recall that it was in the observations and conclusion section where you would be able to cover your backside when the experiment didn't work as expected. Observations and comments are critical for any sort of testing, especially when taking a limited set of measurements which can't possibly encompass all various aspects of operation and application.

Measurements never *fully* guarantee that a speaker or subwoofer sounds good. A good set of measurements will indicate that you have ever expectation the subwoofer will function well, but someone has to turn it on and give a quick listen to insure something obvious wasn't overlooked. Rubs, buzzes and funky, high level mechanical misbehavior does not readily show up in most measurement sets.

As a simple example, what posted measurement describes the sound of the Sundown driver reaching it's mechanical limits? How about the measurement that tells us what an LMS 18 sounds like when it smacks the spider riser?

This in no way diminishes the value of the measurements, but merely acknowledges the limitations and assumptions inherent to them. If you plan to never get past the ideal operation, those differences don't mean much. If you have a design where that is a real potential, then it most certainly matters.

Mark Seaton
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post #26 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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If I settle on the Zv3, I'll redesign the cabinet with a lower tune and a more compact front to accommodate the 18. I really like the venting and look of it. It will most likely end up being a decision between ported and sealed. Now that I have a driver than can handle displacing a ton with quite a bit of power handling for a great price. The sealed option will be mounted inverted for cooling or I'll cook m in the box. The ported cab cools better.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #27 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 11:51 AM
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On a different note, I'm loving how this 18Sound looks in a smallish 7ft3 20hz tuned box, with the O-Audio 500W amp (25hz filter/boost). Excursion is around 11mm.
LL
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post #28 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

Ricci, I run a 20-30hz HP filter at either 12, 24, or 48db/oct. What frequency and slope depends. I'm like a bartender, start the night at 20 at 12db/oct end at 30 at 48db to build in some extra headroom. For this one was 20hz at 24db/oct. I wanted to see what thy could do.

My subs run 0-80.

It wasn't noisy over-excursion, just ran out of gas. I only noticed it because the SoloX was just that much better.

The cabs as built are 9.7ft3, with a 30hz tune. This is why I will generally end up at 30HPF at the end of the night. Excursion plots for the SoloX and Zv3 run out of Xmax at 18hz at 3200w, so safe with the 20hz HPF. The B&C runs out of its rated 15mm at 23hz.


35hz up, they were pretty well matched. Under that the SoloX won. The B&C seemed a bit tighter and more subtle at the top end of the bandwidth as expected, but the SoloX just had the subbass brutality i need from these cabs. Cabs were equivalent and power was equivalent, it was all up to the drivers to perform as they saw fit. SoloX did way better than I thought it would, the 21SW152 did worse than I thought it would. I had preconceived notions that were opposite of what played out.

Sounds like it is excursion below tune causing the B&C to limit for sure. Yeah thesuspension gets really tight. It's good because you cant ever really damage it but it also limits the output. I know you are just opening things up to see what they can do and all of that but be careful running a 30Hz tune with a 20Hz HPF and that much power...

I like to use an 18db/octave butterworth high pass set about 1/3rd octave below tune. Usually works out well. Sometimes I have to put it closer to tune depending on just how hard the cabs are being driven.
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post #29 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 12:18 PM
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post #30 of 42 Old 03-27-2012, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

I'm loving how this 18Sound looks in a smallish 7ft3 20hz tuned box, with the O-Audio 500W amp

Talk to me in about 3 weeks, we might be able to make a deal

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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