Dimensions for sealed 18" sub box - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 08:41 AM
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I am not "disbelieving" anyone or anything, I'm simply relaying facts about the materials that are inarguable and available for anyone to know, if they desire verification.

I (really, lol) am done with this now, I've spewed more about mdf and BB than I would ever care to admit to anyone off AVS. People are free to believe whatever they choose.

...much to the chagrin of most on this thread, I'm sure. tongue.gif:)

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post #452 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 08:42 AM
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Erich,

Unfortunately I will not be able to recommend your flat packs until it is verified that you are using a true grade AAA, 13 ply 18mm thick, 5x5' ,Baltic birch ply, sourced from North western Russia and weighing between 62-66lbs a sheet. 4x8 sheets are more prone to warping during transit and are not true BB as everyone knows. One easy way to tell birch ply from other regions of the world apart from the true BB is that they tend to have a dark and musty odor when worked that can cause throat lesions. This is compared with the sweet pancake syrupy smell and mildly hallucinogenic, but non habit forming qualities of the true BB. I would suggest doing individual birth sheets for each flat pack kit detailing the dimensions, co-planarity specification, glamour shots and weight of each parent sheet of BB wood along with an individual ID #. Some of the saw dust from the making of the kit can be sent with the kit in order for the end purchaser to verify that it is true BB with their own olfactory senses and if needed season an underwhelming bowl of chili. This may provide some sense of confidence that the products are made from 100% genuine BB and that they are not being hoodwinked with inferior material made from ground up sh!twood trees soaked in formaldehyde and reclaimed postage stamp adhesive.

Screw it...Why not go with bamboo flat packs. biggrin.gif
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post #453 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 08:43 AM
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Finally, something we can all agree on. biggrin.gif

BTW: AAA is getting even harder to find these days (and more expensive of course) so if you have a source let a guy know, lol!

James

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post #454 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 08:54 AM
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Masterfully done, Ricci! Thank you.
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post #455 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Jim don't put too much emphasis on "q". Production tolerances in the driver can easily modify this one way or the other as can variations in the actual enclosure volume. Sealed enclosures are the most forgiving design. A few liters one way or the other will not make a difference that you can hear.

Thanks Josh, that's good to know. Admittedly most of my DIY knowledge is empirical in nature - this would be my first serious foray. From what I had gathered the "ideal" Q is .707, but based upon further research it seemed the type of sound/performance I was after would be achieved with something closer to .6 instead. With what you're saying though perhaps I don't need to concern myself with that aspect as much as I had been.

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post #456 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I was thinking about using the new SI 15" with an O Audio 500 watt amp. Based upon the modeling it looked like that combination in a cabinet around 2.5 ft^3 would yield a net volume sufficient to give me a Q of approximately .6, which is where I wanted to be.
I have looked at the dimensions of 2.25 ft^3 as well -- and it seems as though I might be able to squeeze that driver in there -- but IIRC the net volume changed the Q to around .8, which I'd rather not have.

Jim---If weight isn't an issue, you could consider doing what I've realized is a possible route to getting the internal volume I want in a cabinet cut for a certain sized driver---just add some pieces of MDF to the cabinet walls. I'm sure you already know this, I'm just reminding us all. For instance, Erich's 2.25 cab is cut for a 12, his 3.0 for a 15. You can get the 3.0 and add some MDF between the braces until your internal volume is 2.5. As a bonus, this will perhaps also make the cab less resonant!
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post #457 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 06:20 PM
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jim, what ricci is saying is that when you apply eq to make the frequency response flat, you will more or less be changing the q of the system, such that the initial q won't matter so much. there is a little bit of a debate there, but your room/sub interaction is a much more important area to focus on. ideally, you'll have more than one sub too.

ricci, i would actually support bamboo flat packs. :-) it is kind of ironic that such a fast growing renewable resource is so darn expensive. iirc it comes in aaa grade. ;-)

http://woodistry.com/articles/BambooPlywood.htm

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post #458 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Jim---If weight isn't an issue, you could consider doing what I've realized is a possible route to getting the internal volume I want in a cabinet cut for a certain sized driver---just add some pieces of MDF to the cabinet walls. I'm sure you already know this, I'm just reminding us all. For instance, Erich's 2.25 cab is cut for a 12, his 3.0 for a 15. You can get the 3.0 and add some MDF between the braces until your internal volume is 2.5. As a bonus, this will perhaps also make the cab less resonant!

Weight isn't an issue; I have to lose about 20 pounds, but I already know that. tongue.gif

The cabinet size is more of the issue for me. A cabinet 20+ inches cubed will probably stand out too much in my rinky dink 13x17 room, so I wanted to make it smaller then that.

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post #459 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jim, what ricci is saying is that when you apply eq to make the frequency response flat, you will more or less be changing the q of the system, such that the initial q won't matter so much.

Sigh... apparently I need to research this more then I have. I was under the impression Q was primarily dictated by mechanical factors, not electronics. So am I to understand that Q can be altered by signal shaping instead? Maybe I should just steer clear of DIY, eh? tongue.gif

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post #460 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 07:35 PM
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q can be modified electronically, more or less (how much more or less is where there is a little debate).

while details are lacking, vandersteen offers a sub with an adjustable q: http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/2Wqlit.html

"Maybe I should just steer clear of DIY, eh?"

nah. it's too late for you now. :-)

just get some monster spl going down as low as you wish to go, get the room effects worked out, and you will be 99% of the way home.

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post #461 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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If anyone has ideas for certain woofers in certain enclosure sizes, now's the time to let me know. If it's a fairly popular woofer, I can get some custom baffles.

So far I've just been going by what's available from PE and LTD02 has given me some enclosure sizes for different woofers and also different plate amps.

Right now, here are the sealed boxes that are made from Baltic:

1 cuft with a hole cutout for 10's.
1.25 cuft with a hole cutout for 12's
2 cuft with a hole cutout for 12's
3 cu ft with a hole cutout for 15's
3.5 cu ft with a hole cut out for 18's
4 cu ft with a hole cutout for 18's

These are all the new style boxes that go together really easy. I don't know pricing yet. Once I do, I will need to buy shipping material, then figure out Paypal fees, etc. Boxes are getting cut next week in large numbers.

Each one of those designs will initially be cut for a specific woofer. If you have other ideas, let me know. I'm still trying to figure out how to do the blank baffle thing just in case anyone wants to cut their own. I don't know if I should just get some blank pieces of wood cut, or what. The problem is that in the end, I would have more baffles than boxes.

Up next are dual opposed models, then I'll finish out the ported designs. I might also try and get something for two 12" woofers facing forward.


Again, if there are any *specific* designs wanted, now's the time to let me know. Box size and exact woofer info is what I would need. If anyone says "Can you make a box around 5 cuft for some 18's".....you will be black listed, and maybe called a vulgar name. biggrin.gif
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post #462 of 679 Old 11-08-2012, 08:06 PM
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Dayton DVC310-88 in 3cuft ported enclosure, can use the 3" precision port kit at full length (17") for 18hz tuning or use 4" at full length for 24hz tuning which rolls off sooner but has more oomph above 22hz.
Should work well with the dayton 250 or Bash/Yung 300watt plate amp, Could be upgraded to a 500 watt plate amp as well.
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post #463 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 12:54 AM
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In the original MDF boxes, the 3.0 and 3.5 cu.ft. models for 15" drivers were offered cut for the Dayton Reference Series woofer, which calls for a cut-out of 14 1/16" and outer diameter of 15 3/8", and a recess depth of 3/8" for flush mounting. The new 4.0 cu.ft. BB would be great for that driver, as well as the Rythmik 15" (Rythmik recommends 4.0 cu.ft. as the optimum size for their 15) which has those exact mounting dimensions (or close enough....the outer diameter is actually 15 5/16"), and for which I bet you could sell quite a few. I could use a couple of them, if the shipping to California isn't a deal-breaker. By the way, the internal volumes listed for the BB boxes are after bracing, I presume?
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post #464 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 07:17 AM
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Erich,

You might want to swing by PE and measure the flange for the 18" HO; this could potentially be a popular driver to partner with your boxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If anyone has ideas for certain woofers in certain enclosure sizes, now's the time to let me know. If it's a fairly popular woofer, I can get some custom baffles.
So far I've just been going by what's available from PE and LTD02 has given me some enclosure sizes for different woofers and also different plate amps.
Right now, here are the sealed boxes that are made from Baltic:
1 cuft with a hole cutout for 10's.
1.25 cuft with a hole cutout for 12's
2 cuft with a hole cutout for 12's
3 cu ft with a hole cutout for 15's
3.5 cu ft with a hole cut out for 18's
4 cu ft with a hole cutout for 18's
These are all the new style boxes that go together really easy. I don't know pricing yet. Once I do, I will need to buy shipping material, then figure out Paypal fees, etc. Boxes are getting cut next week in large numbers.
Each one of those designs will initially be cut for a specific woofer. If you have other ideas, let me know. I'm still trying to figure out how to do the blank baffle thing just in case anyone wants to cut their own. I don't know if I should just get some blank pieces of wood cut, or what. The problem is that in the end, I would have more baffles than boxes.
Up next are dual opposed models, then I'll finish out the ported designs. I might also try and get something for two 12" woofers facing forward.
Again, if there are any *specific* designs wanted, now's the time to let me know. Box size and exact woofer info is what I would need. If anyone says "Can you make a box around 5 cuft for some 18's".....you will be black listed, and maybe called a vulgar name. biggrin.gif
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post #465 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 07:34 AM
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I agree, I have limited wood working skills so these flat packs would be the way I go. When I decide to do one, it would be the 18" PE woofer. I know it is new, but haven't seen anything close to the value this seems to be. I just have a lot to learn about how to wire it properly and what amp to select.
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post #466 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

If anyone has ideas for certain woofers in certain enclosure sizes, now's the time to let me know. If it's a fairly popular woofer, I can get some custom baffles.
So far I've just been going by what's available from PE and LTD02 has given me some enclosure sizes for different woofers and also different plate amps.
Right now, here are the sealed boxes that are made from Baltic:
1 cuft with a hole cutout for 10's.
1.25 cuft with a hole cutout for 12's
2 cuft with a hole cutout for 12's
3 cu ft with a hole cutout for 15's
3.5 cu ft with a hole cut out for 18's
4 cu ft with a hole cutout for 18's
These are all the new style boxes that go together really easy. I don't know pricing yet. Once I do, I will need to buy shipping material, then figure out Paypal fees, etc. Boxes are getting cut next week in large numbers.
Each one of those designs will initially be cut for a specific woofer. If you have other ideas, let me know. I'm still trying to figure out how to do the blank baffle thing just in case anyone wants to cut their own. I don't know if I should just get some blank pieces of wood cut, or what. The problem is that in the end, I would have more baffles than boxes.
Up next are dual opposed models, then I'll finish out the ported designs. I might also try and get something for two 12" woofers facing forward.
Again, if there are any *specific* designs wanted, now's the time to let me know. Box size and exact woofer info is what I would need. If anyone says "Can you make a box around 5 cuft for some 18's".....you will be black listed, and maybe called a vulgar name. biggrin.gif

X2 or maybe X3 or 4 for a 3.5-4 cubed box for the 18" Dayton HO drivers. A 21" cube would be ideal after factoring in bracing it should be real close to 3.5 cubes.

From PE's site:
Dimensions: Overall diameter: 18.17", Cutout diameter: 16.69", Depth: 8.94"

Dual opposed would also be awesome, but like you stated to me in a PM, shipping may be an issue.
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post #467 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the box for the 18" PE woofer is in the works. It should be done in about a week.
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post #468 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 07:59 AM
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For size contraint reasons, I like the idea of the Dayton 18" in the 3.5 cu ft box (18x23x20.75). The narrow width but extra height makes it blend in with others things better. Can something like that bee done for the Dayton 18s?
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post #469 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Right now, here are the sealed boxes that are made from Baltic:

Are you still planning on still having MDF boxes or just Baltic. I'm still t lost in the weight confusion between the two materials cool.gif
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post #470 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 10:09 AM
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A BB "stacked" dual cabinet (like NOTNYTS as opposed to dual opposed) is prolly out of the question for the Dayton 18" HO?

I realize it wouldn't be a lot of fun to pack and ship but I would bet they would be VERY popular, here.

Prolly a 80-90lb cab at the end of the day with ~42" panels, but I know at least TWO members who would be lusting after it! wink.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #471 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 10:14 AM
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Erich,

I would suggest this. Try to hit as broadly as possible with these sub kits and don't target them too finely. What I mean is this...Just make 3 maybe 4 basic sealed enclosure sizes. Something like:

1.5 cu ft for 12"

3 cubes for 15"

4 cubes for 18"

Maybe a 6 cu ft (24" cube) for dual 15's or 18's, or even a ported 12 or 15"? Customer can cut their port cutouts.

There is no need for a triple layer baffle. I've put XXX's and ultra's on a single 18mm layer with an 18mm recess panel. 2 layers tops is all that is needed with one layer to recess the driver somewhat. The rest is extra cost in wood, shipping and lost enclosure volume.

As far as driver cutouts the only way I can explain it is this...I have a 4.2 cu ft sealed cab that I test most 18" drivers in. It has a recessed baffle. I have run these drivers through it using the exact same screw holes and baffles with no changes needed.

LMS Ultra
Pro5100
RE SX18
Fi Q18 and SSD
SI HT 18
Dayton RS 18
UXL-18
SSA Xcon
Sundown Zv3
PSI 18
Obsidian 18D2
etc...

A dayton RS drops right into the same cut out from a TC LMSR which drops into the cutout of a Fi driver which drops into the same cutout as a Sundown Zv3 series. These 4 frame types are close enough to be drop ins from 10-18". A LOT of drivers use one of these frames. Just don't make the cutout tight down to the last 1/64th on the frame and they should all fit.







Most 12's 18's and 15's that DIYers are going to use are going to use one of the 3 main open source baskets. All of these are close enough dimensionally to drop in for each other. Additionally there are quite a few other frames that also will drop in just fine because most manufacturers are going to stick with convention and compatible specs. I would suggest getting a representative basket of each type or a dimensional print that you trust and make a cutout for each driver size that fits these frames with perhaps 1/16" of slop just in case. For the recess the outer flange of these frames has a larger variance but not that much. You basically just have to decide whether to clear the common rubber wrap around gasket or not like shown on all of these. This would make your cut-outs compatible with the vast majority of drivers that are going to be used. There will be exceptions of course.

For the cases where the driver is an odd size or for guys who want to roll their own a little more by adding ports or using 4 10" drivers instead of an 18" or put a 15" in the 1.5 cube box or an 18" in the 3 cube or whatever... Perhaps offer a blank baffle option for each enclosure.


My 2 cents.
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post #472 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 10:21 AM
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^ A good 2 "sense" it is, too. I was about to detail a similar suggestion but I wasn't sure as I don't nearly possess your experience..

A triple baffle is ridiculous too, imo, especially with BB. The fastener retention is off the charts with BB/decent plywood in general and I seriously doubt the added mass of a 22x22 3/4" panel is really going to be of much consequence in the grand scheme of things. No offense to anyone but seems most useful for bragging rights, not sound or build quality.

great post.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #473 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

q can be modified electronically, more or less (how much more or less is where there is a little debate).

while details are lacking, vandersteen offers a sub with an adjustable q: http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/2Wqlit.html

Guess it really can be adjusted electronically. That's an interesting sub, although probably quite expensive.

While researching this further I did come across the fact that some Rythmik subs, like the F15, also have an adjustable Q. Although, that only lead to more confusion I'm afraid. Rythmik lists the Q adjustment as...

Bass damping factor settings: high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)

However, I was under the impression something like .5 would be low Q, while 1.1 would be high Q. Rythmik appears to disagree with that, so perhaps I misunderstood which was which.

Are you sure DIY is right for me? I'm not even at the hard part... tongue.gif

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post #474 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I would suggest this. Try to hit as broadly as possible with these sub kits and don't target them too finely. What I mean is this...Just make 3 maybe 4 basic sealed enclosure sizes. Something like:

1.5 cu ft for 12"
3 cubes for 15"
4 cubes for 18"
Maybe a 6 cu ft (24" cube) for dual 15's or 18's, or even a ported 12 or 15"? Customer can cut their port cutouts.

Josh is probably right; it sounds as though you may be agonizing more then necessary, and just a few "universal" sizes and cut outs would probably satisfy the vast majority of needs. I would suggest adding a 2.something though, because that could be used for 12" and 15" drivers. Maybe 2.25, seeing as how it's right in the middle of the 1.5 and 3 cabinets.

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post #475 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 10:59 AM
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Fully agree with Josh's size system. Any more than that and it makes it way too complicated for you and it's better to have a tighter assortment, imo. One thing you could do to facilitate someones desire to mix a size with a baffle is to have available extra baffles that one could buy as long as it would fit. That way someone could put a 15" driver in a 4cuft or one of the larger dual-opposed sizes, for example. That seems the most useful for buyers and economical for you as a seller.

I mean, if someone really needs a specific sized enclosure they would build it their damn self like DIY'er. biggrin.gif

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post #476 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 11:09 AM
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Stack 2 singles together - that's one of my plans. Some construction adhesive and a few screws - once finished (less round over on common edge) nobody would know the difference...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

A BB "stacked" dual cabinet (like NOTNYTS as opposed to dual opposed) is prolly out of the question for the Dayton 18" HO?
I realize it wouldn't be a lot of fun to pack and ship but I would bet they would be VERY popular, here.
Prolly a 80-90lb cab at the end of the day with ~42" panels, but I know at least TWO members who would be lusting after it! wink.gifbiggrin.gif
James
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post #477 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Erich,
Maybe a 6 cu ft (24" cube) for dual 15's or 18's, or even a ported 12 or 15"? Customer can cut their port cutouts.

Yes please!

Also X4 on his "keep it simple" approach to driver sizing. wink.gif
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post #478 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 11:22 AM
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Stack 2 singles together - that's one of my plans. Some construction adhesive and a few screws - once finished (less round over on common edge) nobody would know the difference...
precisely...very doable. I was just checking to see if it would be possible with enough interest.


James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #479 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 11:23 AM
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any ball park idea on $ for the 4^3 18" BB cab?

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #480 of 679 Old 11-09-2012, 11:32 AM
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any ball park idea on $ for the 4^3 18" BB cab?
James

X 8...
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