Dimensions for sealed 18" sub box - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 679 Old 11-16-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

This project is turning out GREAT! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Erich,

Kudos for all of your great work. I am wrapping up a build thread on an SEOS surround build and I used two of your flat packs for the first time.

I am blown away by not only the quality level of the pack but the thought that went into the design. You made it so easy to make top quality boxes.

Now that I am wrapping up my surround build it's time look toward a sub build and these 18" boxes are looking very interesting. rolleyes.gif

Thanks again for all you have done for us.

Java
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post #632 of 679 Old 11-17-2012, 04:07 AM
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I'm sort of thinking along the same lines and leaning towards 4 cuft.
I've been working all morning trying to get a design laid out on a sheet that the CNC company can easily cut, and I think I have it figured out. No matter what, it's going to take more than one sheet of wood.
Right now the box looks to be 20" wide, 23.5" tall, and 20" deep. That's a gross volume of 4.36. After bracing it should be about 4.15 or so. The woofer itself and possible amp would take it just a bit under 4cuft.
Right now I have it figured as 2 horizontal braces, and one vertical brace. But depending on the layout, I might be able to figure out how to get 2 verticals in there as well.
Due to the layout out of the bracing on the second sheet of wood, it might be cheaper to have the box for the Dayton to have 1 horizontal and one vertical, and the same box size for the LMS, but 2 horizontals and 2 verticals. The problem lies with the tall vertical braces. But I still might be able to get it figured out.
I don't know if we need 2 vertical braces inside the Dayton box. I'll try to get a sheet layout posted today.

Erich, this box seems to me to be unbeatable and very versatile. With it, in addition to the 3 cu.ft. and Ricci's suggestion for a 5.9, you've got it covered for dual 12's, single and dual 15's, and at least single (maybe dual) 18's. With baffles cut for some specific drivers and blank uncut baffles as an option, everybody should be able to buy one or two boxes for any set-up they have in mind. Good job!
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post #633 of 679 Old 11-18-2012, 01:16 PM
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Long time lurker, and I've been following this thread forever. Really want to get one of the 18" sealed boxes for my JL Audio 18W6 - thanks to Erich H for doing this for the forum!

Stephen
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post #634 of 679 Old 11-19-2012, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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It looks like the boxes for the 18" Dayton and the 18" LMS will need to be different. Well, same box shape, but different bracing.

The goal with the Dayton is to allow room for the 1000 watt plate amp to be installed if needed. It's about 5.25" deep. So that means a vertical brace that was 2" thick that can interlock with the other braces would come off the back roughly 8" to give safe clearance. That leave plenty of room for the 9" deep Dayton to sit in front of those braces. But the LMS is 11.5" deep, which would not fit in the box. So I'm going to have to redesign the bracing system to drop back further in the box for this one. That won't be a problem because no one is using a plate amp with this driver anyway.


The Dayton design has 2 horizontal and 1 vertical brace. inside unbraced spans are about 8.75" on the vertical and 7" on the horizontal. I think that's very good for this driver.

If these boxes are going to be different, I'm thinking the LMS should get a second vertical brace.

Both boxes could be the same if the bracing style was similar to the one discussed last week. I'll get some photos up later.
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post #635 of 679 Old 11-19-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's a quick idea for the 18" Dayton box. Yes, I stink at Photoshop, no reason to say it. biggrin.gif The square in the middle that shows the amp will not be cut through. I will have the outline carved on the inside of the box with a router bit around .1" deep. Measurements are rounded a little bit.

To install an amp in this box would be very easy. First cut the amp hole, then assemble the box. Then just cut the extra wood away from the horizontal shelves.....done. You still have the cross bracing, and the amp fits just fine.

dayton_box2.jpg
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post #636 of 679 Old 11-19-2012, 08:05 AM
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are the braces really going to stick out past the cabinet?

:-)~

what did you end up choosing for the net volume?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #637 of 679 Old 11-19-2012, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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The box is 4.25 cuft gross. After bracing it should be right around 4 cuft net internal volume.


If the cross bracing gets moved back about 1.5" so the 12" deep LMS can fit, the cross brace is only going to be about 6.5" off the rear panel. At that point, I'm not sure it's worth a full length cross brace because it's so far off the center anyway. I'll try to draw it up later to explain better.

Now if we went back to the triangular style braces that run from front to back, and about 8" across the rear panel, then we could put 2 on each panel and then one box would work with all woofers and plate amps.

A picture will be better than my typing.
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post #638 of 679 Old 11-19-2012, 08:25 AM
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i know what you are saying and imho both would work fine. it's really only a looks/marketing decision. the side panel is not going to flex with two perpendicular braces running the length of the panel.

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post #639 of 679 Old 11-19-2012, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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It was hard, but I somehow lowered my Photoshop skills even more on this drawing! rolleyes.gif This would be the other idea for the 18" Dayton that would use the same amount of area on a sheet of wood. The braces are smaller, but we get 2 per vertical span. I like this idea better than the previous one.

dayton_box4.jpg


Those smaller braces are similar to the ones Zaph Audio uses and how we thought they should be last year. Mine are beefier than these and run up to the baffle which is better, but still the same concept of locking neighboring panels together so neither can flex:

krutke_sub-bracing.jpg


Now if we did that on the horizontal braces as well, then one box could be used with both 18" subwoofers, and still allow for an amp to be installed on the back panel. There would be a total of 8 braces running up the side and attaching to the subbaffle. To me, this is the best way to go because once that 18" LMS magnet is pushed back in the box that far, a cross brace would only be about 6" - 7" off the rear panel. That far back, the cross brace does no more for the side panels than the other style brace.
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post #640 of 679 Old 11-20-2012, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Here's a quick idea for the 18" Dayton box. Yes, I stink at Photoshop, no reason to say it. biggrin.gif The square in the middle that shows the amp will not be cut through. I will have the outline carved on the inside of the box with a router bit around .1" deep. Measurements are rounded a little bit.
To install an amp in this box would be very easy. First cut the amp hole, then assemble the box. Then just cut the extra wood away from the horizontal shelves.....done. You still have the cross bracing, and the amp fits just fine.
dayton_box2.jpg

What if you were to put in two of these vertical braces, and spread them far enough apart for the magnet assemblies of the drivers to fit between them? Then you would have four points where the vertical and horizontal braces interlock, a very effective and efficient use of space. Infact, your MDF 3.0 and 3.5 boxes for 15 inchers were braced that way, basically. Or would the verticals then be too far to the sides for the LMS? It would be great for the Dayton, anyhow.
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post #641 of 679 Old 11-20-2012, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Here's a quick idea for the 18" Dayton box. Yes, I stink at Photoshop, no reason to say it. biggrin.gif The square in the middle that shows the amp will not be cut through. I will have the outline carved on the inside of the box with a router bit around .1" deep. Measurements are rounded a little bit.
To install an amp in this box would be very easy. First cut the amp hole, then assemble the box. Then just cut the extra wood away from the horizontal shelves.....done. You still have the cross bracing, and the amp fits just fine.
dayton_box2.jpg

Except for the extremely deep drivers, I think this is really, really nice. Unless you want to have only one version of this size box. But whichever way you go, we'll all be happy to have it. Have you considered making it about 2 inches deeper, so that after bracing, driver, and amp displacement the volume will be right at 4.0 (I think)?
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post #642 of 679 Old 11-20-2012, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

What if you were to put in two of these vertical braces, and spread them far enough apart for the magnet assemblies of the drivers to fit between them? Then you would have four points where the vertical and horizontal braces interlock, a very effective and efficient use of space. Infact, your MDF 3.0 and 3.5 boxes for 15 inchers were braced that way, basically. Or would the verticals then be too far to the sides for the LMS? It would be great for the Dayton, anyhow.

I thought about that and did draw it up. But the magnet is about 11" wide. Inside the box is 18.5" wide. So the vertical braces would literally be about 3.5" away from the corners and wall, which is the strongest part of the box already.

If the box was 2" deeper, then we would be up to the volume in the beginning of the thread where people said it was too much for the LMS. 4.25cuft will be about 4.05 net, probably closer to 4. That seemed to be exactly what people were wanting for the LMS.


I think either way this is done, we're going to need 1 box size with 2 different brace styles to accommodate either an amplifier of the back panel, or a deep magnet off the front panel.

The only other way to do it would be to use 8 of those 'L' style braces.

I need to draw up a brace to show how far back the the cross member would be in the LMS box, then decide if it's even needed at that depth. I'll try to do that this morning so we can decide. I have to send these designs in very soon because the other sub boxes are getting cut and they need to be done at the same time.
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post #643 of 679 Old 11-20-2012, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's the other idea I had that would work for both boxes, laid out on a cut sheet. The braces would be done on a second sheet which is good because they have to be different anyway. This is a pretty tight fit between some of these panels, and I'm not 100% sure they can do it just yet, but I will check.

dayton_box5.jpg


This gives 2 braces for each top and bottom panel, and then the 2 horizontals. The space taken up by those 4 braces on the sheet is roughly 38" x 10.5". I could design 2 long vertical cross braces shaped like a 'U' that would fit in that area. They would be about 6" deep, but could interlock with the horizontals. I'll have to do that later because I've got to go to work right now.

So we could get half the boxes done like that picture above for the Dayton. Then half done like that picture above with 2 of the U braces.

Then the sheet of horizontals could have 2 of each style. I'll draw the U brace later today and see if it will work. But it would only come up off the back panel about 6" before hitting the rear of the deep subwoofer. Personally, I'd rather have the longer braces going up the top and bottom than interlocking with the horizontals.
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post #644 of 679 Old 11-20-2012, 12:28 PM
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Excellent Erich. Since a box with 4 of the U-shaped cross braces won't accomodate an LMS anyway, will that bracing system be optimized for less deep drivers (Dayton, etc.)---i.e., the braces will be positioned further forward than the LMS driver allows, and LMS users will get the other brace system--- 2 U braces and 4 L's? Sounds like a plan to me!
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post #645 of 679 Old 11-21-2012, 05:27 PM
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Erich---Do you think you are going to offer this box with uncut baffles (both layers)? That would be of value for those wanting to use the box for a 15", dual 12" (with DIY bracing, I would think), etc.
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post #646 of 679 Old 11-21-2012, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, blank baffles will be able to be ordered, but I'll be getting some made up for a couple different 15's. I changed the layout in that above picture to cram all the different braces on the panel, but then do the subbaffle and outer baffle separately. That way I can get a decent number of boxes and switch out the baffles as needed.

The 3 cuft boxes are also aimed at the 15" drivers. And there will be a dual opposed 12" model for the Dayton RS series. I think that box was around 2.5 cuft.

I'm assembling a 12" model with dual 12" passive radiators right now. biggrin.gif It's in a small 15" cube.

There's also a super small 12.5" cube with a 10" driver and dual 10" passive radiators.
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post #647 of 679 Old 11-21-2012, 06:51 PM
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Yeah, baby! You da man!!
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post #648 of 679 Old 11-21-2012, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Yes, blank baffles will be able to be ordered, but I'll be getting some made up for a couple different 15's. I changed the layout in that above picture to cram all the different braces on the panel, but then do the subbaffle and outer baffle separately. That way I can get a decent number of boxes and switch out the baffles as needed.
The 3 cuft boxes are also aimed at the 15" drivers. And there will be a dual opposed 12" model for the Dayton RS series. I think that box was around 2.5 cuft.
I'm assembling a 12" model with dual 12" passive radiators right now. biggrin.gif It's in a small 15" cube.
There's also a super small 12.5" cube with a 10" driver and dual 10" passive radiators.

I like the idea of these compact, dual passive radiator subs...

Wanna give us a teaser on what amps are used those builds?.... since PE has some great sales running on Bash and Yung amps right now...
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post #649 of 679 Old 11-22-2012, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The small cheaper models are being tested first. I'll have the 12" woofer model finished up shortly.


Gentlemen, I do believe I have designed a dual opposed box that will work for dual Dayton 18's, dual 15's and also a very nice ported 15" tuned to 18hz.

22" tall x 23" wide x 31" deep (not counting double baffle)

Net after bracing is 7.25 sealed.

Same box after port volume of two 4" ports, woofer, and possible amp would be right around 6.5 - 6.7cuft. Easy to tune low with long straight ports. The 23" width should allow for a 15" woofer and two of the wide flanged 4" Precision Ports to fit on the baffle.

I just need to figure out what wood to use in order to keep shipping weight okay. These will need to be shipped in 2 boxes either way, so maybe these should be mdf to keep prices okay too.
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post #650 of 679 Old 11-22-2012, 09:44 AM
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Erich,

Are you looking to make a kit out of the new Dayton 18" HO speaker? Seems like a killer option.

If so, what are you thinking for the amp? Dayton SPA1000? What about a rack amp like the inuke3000 DSP?

Given this is a sealed sub, the amp will need some EQ, right? And I'm assuming somewhere in the 1k watt range.

I was poking around HTS and found the below plate amp. 1k with DSP. It's an OEM (250 min order). I shot them an email to see about pricing.

DDC1000SW_08C20.pdf 508k .pdf file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf DDC1000SW_08C20.pdf (507.7 KB, 25 views)
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post #651 of 679 Old 12-07-2012, 07:07 PM
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Erich (and everybody else)---I've been doing some reading lately, and just saw something on the Linkwitz website related to these sub boxes. You all may have already seen it, but since someone said here that Erich's sub box designs are over-braced, I thought I'd share SL's opinion on the matter of bracing. On his site he states (on page 2, I believe it was) that a 3/4 inch thick wall should have an unsupported area of no greater than 4 inches square (by which I'm sure he means 4" X 4", not 4 square inches!). Danny at GR Research spaces his full panel (with large circular cut-out) braces 4 inches apart in his box for the GR 12" driver. What sayeth to that, ye all?
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post #652 of 679 Old 12-07-2012, 09:05 PM
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He also says "That is a lot of bracing, but it pushes modes into the low kHz range."

I didn't get the impression this was related to subwoofers. The box design for his Thor didn't speak of bracing at all. It actually notes that resonance would begin at a safe 330hz.

I still question a brace free box, but I think it's safe to say 4 inches would be extreme.
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Erich (and everybody else)---I've been doing some reading lately, and just saw something on the Linkwitz website related to these sub boxes. You all may have already seen it, but since someone said here that Erich's sub box designs are over-braced, I thought I'd share SL's opinion on the matter of bracing. On his site he states (on page 2, I believe it was) that a 3/4 inch thick wall should have an unsupported area of no greater than 4 inches square (by which I'm sure he means 4" X 4", not 4 square inches!). Danny at GR Research spaces his full panel (with large circular cut-out) braces 4 inches apart in his box for the GR 12" driver. What sayeth to that, ye all?
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post #653 of 679 Old 12-07-2012, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The small cheaper models are being tested first. I'll have the 12" woofer model finished up shortly.
Gentlemen, I do believe I have designed a dual opposed box that will work for dual Dayton 18's, dual 15's and also a very nice ported 15" tuned to 18hz.
22" tall x 23" wide x 31" deep (not counting double baffle)
Net after bracing is 7.25 sealed.
Same box after port volume of two 4" ports, woofer, and possible amp would be right around 6.5 - 6.7cuft. Easy to tune low with long straight ports. The 23" width should allow for a 15" woofer and two of the wide flanged 4" Precision Ports to fit on the baffle.
I just need to figure out what wood to use in order to keep shipping weight okay. These will need to be shipped in 2 boxes either way, so maybe these should be mdf to keep prices okay too.

That sounds perfect for building a ported 15". A pair of the 4" x 17" precision ports would get you about 22hz. Are you planning on making the cut outs for just the port flares? I'm not sure if those ports can be extended with regular PVC or not if one wanted longer ports for a lower tune?
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post #654 of 679 Old 12-07-2012, 11:36 PM
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He also says "That is a lot of bracing, but it pushes modes into the low kHz range."
I didn't get the impression this was related to subwoofers. The box design for his Thor didn't speak of bracing at all. It actually notes that resonance would begin at a safe 330hz.
I still question a brace free box, but I think it's safe to say 4 inches would be extreme.

Thanks, I'll reread it and see if I missed that.

Okay, found it. So SL doesn't refer to subs explicitly, but if he was talking about bracing a midrange driver he would want to push modes higher than the low kHz range, wouldn't he? That's right in the middle of most midrange driver's bandwidth. But yeah, every 4 inches IS extreme!
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post #655 of 679 Old 12-08-2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Thanks, I'll reread it and see if I missed that.
Okay, found it. So SL doesn't refer to subs explicitly, but if he was talking about bracing a midrange driver he would want to push modes higher than the low kHz range, wouldn't he? That's right in the middle of most midrange driver's bandwidth. But yeah, every 4 inches IS extreme!

Gentleman, this is DIY, it's supposed to be extreme biggrin.gif

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post #656 of 679 Old 12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Gentleman, this is DIY, it's supposed to be extreme biggrin.gif

True, but there is no way a 3/4" plywood panel flexes enough in a 16 square inch area to have any appreciable effect on subwoofer frequencies.
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post #657 of 679 Old 12-08-2012, 04:36 PM
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True, but there is no way a 3/4" plywood panel flexes enough in a 16 square inch area to have any appreciable effect on subwoofer frequencies.

I think Erich's flat packs are a great idea as if you did want to do bracing like that it would be a lot more difficult without a CNC. If all you need is a simple box with a few dowels for bracing then these flat packs are probably not for you but to those without an extensive tool collection these flat packs are crazy nice. I do have an extensive tool collection but these flat packs are so precisely engineered and darn easy to put together that I would rather order from Erich.

I have done bracing such as Erich has for my LMS Ultra's and can tell you that it definitely made a difference. My test enclosure was braced to what I thought was nice but when I compared it vs the new heavily braced enclosures even blind you could tell which enclosure was which. It was actually when trying out the LMS Ultra with my test enclosure that I use with all 18" subs that I knew I had to go a lot more sturdy with my bracing and it really paid off in the end.

For some subs a heavily braced cabinet will make a big difference and for others not. For the prices Erich's charging what's the harm with all the extra bracing besides a few extra bucks in shipping?

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post #658 of 679 Old 12-08-2012, 10:59 PM
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mj---Did your new, more braced box have about as much bracing as these new boxes from Eric? Say, two cross braces spanning two of the three planes, intersecting in the middle, or more like his "L" braces, connecting two adjoining panels?
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post #659 of 679 Old 12-09-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

mj---Did your new, more braced box have about as much bracing as these new boxes from Eric? Say, two cross braces spanning two of the three planes, intersecting in the middle, or more like his "L" braces, connecting two adjoining panels?

They were just like Erich's.


"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #660 of 679 Old 12-09-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

mj---Did your new, more braced box have about as much bracing as these new boxes from Eric? Say, two cross braces spanning two of the three planes, intersecting in the middle, or more like his "L" braces, connecting two adjoining panels?[/quote

Oops. I'm so used to spelling my own name I misspelled Erich's. I'll bet he get's that alot.
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