Dimensions for sealed 18" sub box - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Sub boxes are being cut this weekend. I wanted to double check some ideas, but time is a little crunched.

22"wide x 23" tall x 20" deep with a double baffle is 4.5 cu ft before bracing. So I'm guessing around 4.25 cu ft net which seems like a very common size.


What do you think about the 20" depth? Is that okay? If it is, then I can use the same sides for multiple boxes.

17.5" or 18" wide x 23" x 20" will get around 3.5 or 3.6 before bracing. That could be used for sealed 15's or porting one of the 12" Daytons or the 12" Titanic.




Anyone see any problem with a 20" deep box for the common 18" sub drivers?
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post #2 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, anyone have cut out dimensions for any 18" PE doesn't sell? These will be double baffle, so I need overall diameter and the cutout hole diameter.
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post #3 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 08:13 AM
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20" depth seems to be reasonable. Eagerly waiting for your flatpacks & kits.

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post #4 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 09:54 AM
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Just curious when I use the dimensions 23" x 22" x 20" (HxWxD) I get a cubic volume of 5.8, not 4.5? Also what would be an acceptable width and height for say a 18" sub? Would an inch of "meat" be adequate?
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post #5 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Just curious when I use the dimensions 23" x 22" x 20" (HxWxD) I get a cubic volume of 5.8, not 4.5? Also what would be an acceptable width and height for say a 18" sub? Would an inch of "meat" be adequate?

Keep in mind those are external measurements. Depending on the thickness of the panels the internal dimensions will be different. Volume is based on internal dimensions.
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post #6 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 10:07 AM
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Sounds good Erich; excited to see this coming together!
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post #7 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by duc135 View Post

Keep in mind those are external measurements. Depending on the thickness of the panels the internal dimensions will be different. Volume is based on internal dimensions.

Yes I am well aware of how volume is calculated and are these box dimension calculators not using inside dimensions? Typically when talking about a machined/manufactured part inside dimensions should be used when discussing the size. Also this gives the person, if they decide to build this on their own, the oppurtunity to use whatever thickness material they might have on hand and it would not affect the volume.
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post #8 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Yes I am well aware of how volume is calculated and are these box dimension calculators not using inside dimensions? Typically when talking about a machined/manufactured part inside dimensions should be used when discussing the size. Also this gives the person, if they decide to build this on their own, the oppurtunity to use whatever thickness material they might have on hand and it would not affect the volume.

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp

Go there and use that calculator, you will see with 0.00" thick panels, it gives what you found. With 3/4" panels, it comes to 4.71 internal volume which leads me to beleive Erich is using just that size box with a double front baffle, should yield right at 4.5 cuft exactly

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post #9 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Also what would be an acceptable width and height for say a 18" sub?

Any measurement that will fit your application will be adequate. So design your enclosure size based on the driver specs and what will fit in your room. You can make it from anywhere as small as will allow for mounting of the driver to the size of a refrigerator. There is no one right size. Usually people will select the driver based on certain criteria like allowable enclosure size and desired performance and cost. Different drivers even though they are the same size will have different enclosure requirements.

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Would an inch of "meat" be adequate?

Not even really sure what you're asking. Do you mean an inch of material extending beyond the driver frame. As in an 18" driver needing an additional 1" of front baffle so the WxD would be 20"? If so, that would again depend on your driver selection and panel thicknesses.

Now if you're referring to the baffle thickness then again, it will depend on your driver choice and mounting. If you are flush mounting an LMS which weighs in at close to 90lbs then I would not go below 1.5" thickness. 1" in fine for top mounting.

The third thing I can think of what you mean is the the overall panel thickness. If that's the case, I think 3/4" thickness will be fine provided you sufficiently brace the walls. The exception would be noted above for the front baffle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Yes I am well aware of how volume is calculated and are these box dimension calculators not using inside dimensions?

Different calculators use different methods. As beastaudio has pointed out, you will have to look at them carefully. If they have a field for panel thickness then they are calculating external dimensions. If not, they are using internal dimensions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Typically when talking about a machined/manufactured part inside dimensions should be used when discussing the size.

Not always true. It depends who your target audience is. The consumer is not interested in internal dimensions when buying a sub for the most part. They need to know what the exterior dimensions are to determine if it will fit in their space. In this case, it is for DIYers who do need to know, but the external dimensions plus the net volume provided will give them the info the need to make an informed decision.

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Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Also this gives the person, if they decide to build this on their own, the oppurtunity to use whatever thickness material they might have on hand and it would not affect the volume.

Eric H. is not providing info for the end user to make his own enclosure. He is asking about exterior dimensions for a flat panel he will be making and supplying to us for purchase. He is asking if those exterior dimensions would be acceptable to the majority of users here on the forum. Well, at least I'm assuming that's his motive for this post.

Like everything you hear and read, it needs to be taken in context.
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post #10 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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22" wide x 23" tall x 20" deep. That includes doubling the front to 1.5" thick.

If you subtract off the double baffle, the box is 22x23x19.25.

Using .75" material, I'm getting 4.53 cu ft before bracing and the driver.


I'm guesstimating that will take us down to around 4.2 cu ft or so net when all is said and done.


Is that a good figure to shoot for? I think most people were hoping for 4 cu ft and 4.25 cu ft. So it should work out.

The first run will not be in huge numbers because I'm going to have them cut about 5 other sizes......it adds up really fast. At first they only wanted to do runs of 100 boxes in one size. It doesn't take a mental giant to add up costs on that for a couple designs. But the CNC programmer is going to help after hours to make up a few designs. Then cut 100 boxes using maybe 5 designs.

It seemed about 50/50 for people that wanted mdf or Baltic, so the first ones will be mdf because they will be cheaper. Shipping weight will be nearly the same. I'm a little worried about using Baltic on the first run because the expense is high and I don't know how much interest there actually is.

I'll keep you guys posted how this all works out.
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post #11 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 12:10 PM
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Sure I get it, but my point is why worry about the material thickness? If for example you have a 24" x 18" x 16" (HxWxD) internal dimensions that gets you a 4.0 (internal) cu. ft. box. Then the only thing you should need to subtract is the bracing material and driver volume. Now if you leave the driver out of the equation, since we will be using varying products and use say 3/4" material cut to a 3" strip by 18 and/or 16" long for the bracing it comes to around 3.9 cu. ft.

duc135 you would have to ask ErichH what his intentions are, but from my standpoint he is asking for a generic sized box that will accommodate as many driver options as possible and have a re-usable panel in different sized boxes to keep manufacturing costs down. An example would be using a (depth) panel of 20" that could be used in both 3 and 4 cu. ft. boxes.

19 x 19 x 20 = 4.18
16.5 x 16.5 x 20 = 3.15

Yes I was trying to ask for the minimum material thickness needed past the driver frame, which in turn dictates minimum height and width for the box. So if we are putting a 18" sub into the 19 x 19 x 20 box would the 19" x 19" baffle be sufficient?
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post #12 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 12:27 PM
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What bracing style is the box using??

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http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html
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post #13 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 12:31 PM
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A quick, cheap cardboard mock-up can help you to see how it looks.
Sometimes tweaking a couple of dimensions a little can make the enclosure look better. Just a thought.
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post #14 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Sure I get it, but my point is why worry about the material thickness? If for example you have a 24" x 18" x 16" (HxWxD) internal dimensions that gets you a 4.0 (internal) cu. ft. box. Then the only thing you should need to subtract is the bracing material and driver volume. Now if you leave the driver out of the equation, since we will be using varying products and use say 3/4" material cut to a 3" strip by 18 and/or 16" long for the bracing it comes to around 3.9 cu. ft.

Like I said, you have to take everything in context. Eric posted dimensions. You, assuming he meant internal dimensions, stated his calculations are incorrect. We let you know these were external numbers and you questioned why anyone would give external dimensions so I told you why. Material thickness has everything to do with it. Material thickness of 3/4" panels is how he derived his volume based on the external dimensions he provided.

You are thinking in absolutes that are convenient for you for your requirements. You need to take things in context. Again, Eric provided external dimension because he was asking us for our opinions and if it would work for us (in general) so that he can create the flat packs as you alluded to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Sure I get it, but my point is why worry about the material thickness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spec4 View Post

Yes I was trying to ask for the minimum material thickness needed past the driver frame, which in turn dictates minimum height and width for the box. So if we are putting a 18" sub into the 19 x 19 x 20 box would the 19" x 19" baffle be sufficient?

I thought you just said we don't need to worry about material thickness?

See what I mean about taking everything in context?

Anyhow, yes, material thickness has an affect on minimum baffle size. Again, this all depends on your driver measurements and the clearance of the basket. Just a rough guesstimate I would say the bare minimum based on a 3/4" panel thickness would be 1" greater than the bolt hole diameter of the driver or the exact measurement of the driver frame whichever is greater. It wouldn't look very nice, but it will work. In other words, so long as the internal dimension will accommodate the width of the basket and the exterior dimension will accommodate the bolt holes then you can go as small as you want.
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post #15 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 01:51 PM
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another thing to consider, for leaving 1 inch on either side of the speaker. what if you decide you want the front baffle recessed from the edges instead of overlaying them? then you have only a 1/4" of material between the speaker cutout and the end of the baffle...Not optimal at all. I only say this because I made that mistake way back in the day, just rushing through a quick design/build and not thinkin at all...

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post #16 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 01:54 PM
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Were grills going to be cut for the subwoofers?

If not, parts express sells grill kits but it needs to be less than 23x22 to make two out of one kit.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=260-346
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post #17 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

another thing to consider, for leaving 1 inch on either side of the speaker. what if you decide you want the front baffle recessed from the edges instead of overlaying them? then you have only a 1/4" of material between the speaker cutout and the end of the baffle...Not optimal at all. I only say this because I made that mistake way back in the day, just rushing through a quick design/build and not thinkin at all...

Agreed, there are a lot of things to consider when building a box, but Spec4 asked what is the minimum without providing any other criteria. That's why I said that the minimum would probably look ugly, but it would work.
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post #18 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 02:20 PM
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If you are keeping a log for hole cut-outs...the Mach audio 18" cut out is 16.7 for the basket and 18.2" for the recess..and 22 wide x23 tall looks very nice with an 18" driver installed.....that is the size i cut for my ported box...with the slot port adding a few inches to the bottom.

Tim
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post #19 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Were grills going to be cut for the subwoofers?

If not, parts express sells grill kits but it needs to be less than 23x22 to make two out of one kit.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=260-346

If you are afraid of the driver showing then put some feet and down fire it

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post #20 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 03:38 PM
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for the 'kit folks', total packages are much favored over figure-it-all-out-for-yourself builds.

the less decisions...the better.

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post #21 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

another thing to consider, for leaving 1 inch on either side of the speaker. what if you decide you want the front baffle recessed from the edges instead of overlaying them? then you have only a 1/4" of material between the speaker cutout and the end of the baffle...Not optimal at all. I only say this because I made that mistake way back in the day, just rushing through a quick design/build and not thinkin at all...



I'm not sure I follow what you mean here.

There will be 2 baffles, the inner one will drop into rabbets that are cut in the side panels. So the inner baffle will be completely flush with the sides, top, and bottom. The circle will be cut so the driver mounts to that inner baffle.

The outer baffle will be cut a little bigger than the overall woofer diameter. Then it will be placed on top like all other speaker baffles usually are.

Basically the driver will be recessed .75" on a 1.5" thick baffle.


The only issue I'm seeing is that overall dimensions vary a decent amount. So I should probably shoot for the largest one. But sometimes that might mean the outer baffle is .5" bigger than the driver....leaving a .25" gap all the way around. I doubt that would be an issue if it was given a roundover.

But if I don't do that, then every outer baffle would need to be cut for each specific driver. You can imagine how crazy that could get......these are just "general" boxes for people to use.


Example with the 10" drivers:

Dayton RS is 10.5" overall.
Titanic is 11.02"
LMS is 11"

So the outer panel should be made to 11.02". But will the Dayton look okay? The difference is due to the Dayton not having the thick circular gasket like the Titanic and LMS.


I could cut the outer baffle myself with a router.
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post #22 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 04:35 PM
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Listen guy I'm not going to argue with you, my first post was questioning HOW he got those dimensions, no where did I state he was wrong and also the OP did not mention material thickness. All of my original questions where in the context of his OP and you assumed he meant external dimensions. My intention was to raise the question of why should we care what the external dimensions are when it's the internal dimensions that matter.

Erich, I was attempting to ask the group what is the minimum amount of baffle material surrounding a given driver, so that you could figure out the minimum size for the HxW of each box...which I see you just asked.
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post #23 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here.

There will be 2 baffles, the inner one will drop into rabbets that are cut in the side panels. So the inner baffle will be completely flush with the sides, top, and bottom. The circle will be cut so the driver mounts to that inner baffle.

The outer baffle will be cut a little bigger than the overall woofer diameter. Then it will be placed on top like all other speaker baffles usually are.

Basically the driver will be recessed .75" on a 1.5" thick baffle.


The only issue I'm seeing is that overall dimensions vary a decent amount. So I should probably shoot for the largest one. But sometimes that might mean the outer baffle is .5" bigger than the driver....leaving a .25" gap all the way around. I doubt that would be an issue if it was given a roundover.

But if I don't do that, then every outer baffle would need to be cut for each specific driver. You can imagine how crazy that could get......these are just "general" boxes for people to use.


Example with the 10" drivers:

Dayton RS is 10.5" overall.
Titanic is 11.02"
LMS is 11"

So the outer panel should be made to 11.02". But will the Dayton look okay? The difference is due to the Dayton not having the thick circular gasket like the Titanic and LMS.


I could cut the outer baffle myself with a router.

Erich,

The overall dimensions sound good, looking forward to getting a 15" box. Are you leaning toward the end user cutting both baffles, or just the inner? Leaving it all for the buyer may be the way to go, too many variables.....some may not want to recess the driver, or may not want it centered vertically.
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post #24 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
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Listen guy I'm not going to argue with you, my first post was questioning HOW he got those dimensions, no where did I state he was wrong and also the OP did not mention material thickness. All of my original questions where in the context of his OP and you assumed he meant external dimensions. My intention was to raise the question of why should we care what the external dimensions are when it's the internal dimensions that matter.

Erich, I was attempting to ask the group what is the minimum amount of baffle material surrounding a given driver, so that you could figure out the minimum size for the HxW of each box...which I see you just asked.

My apologies. I didn't meant to appear argumentative. From your original post I thought you were actually asking those questions because you wanted to know to build a box for a particular driver. I didn't take it as a question to initiate discussion.
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post #25 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhillsguy View Post

Erich,

The overall dimensions sound good, looking forward to getting a 15" box. Are you leaning toward the end user cutting both baffles, or just the inner? Leaving it all for the buyer may be the way to go, too many variables.....some may not want to recess the driver, or may not want it centered vertically.

I'd have to cut the outer baffles because some people that want these boxes probably don't have a router.

Maybe I can have the CNC company cut half of them, and then leave me half uncut. Cutting a simple circle won't bother me very much.


It's funny, I've been working on box designs for a couple days, and I keep wanting more and more different box sizes. But no way could I have the CNC company cut 15 different sizes with 50 or so of each. That's like 20 pallets of boxes.

I should consider getting a CNC machine and hiring a guy part time to cut stuff for everyone. Prices would probably still be the same even after I paid someone. Of course, the CNC company has a $150k + machine that cuts faster than anything I've seen. A part time employee would likely equal the overhead cost from the CNC company. I bet it would be a wash and keep pricing about the same. Not sure. I should probably stop thinking about that.

Then again, we've got a huge number of different SEOS boxes that need cut too.

Okay, I'm going to stop thinking now. I've got packages to box up for people, so I'm heading out to get them done.
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post #26 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 06:12 PM
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spec4, try keep it light so it remains fun. :-)

the seaton submersive employs baltic birch and dual opposed 15" drivers. you can see that the driver extends right to the edge of the internal cab.

"It's funny, I've been working on box designs for a couple days, and I keep wanting more and more different box sizes."

erich, lol, that is how it goes...

one possibility is to get into the shopbot network. they have a network where you can take a plan to a local guy with a shopbot and have then cut the wood locally. since most work could be done in 'down time', and there would be no shipping charge, the total cost might be quite reasonable. just a thought.
LL

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post #27 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'd have to cut the outer baffles because some people that want these boxes probably don't have a router.

Maybe I can have the CNC company cut half of them, and then leave me half uncut. Cutting a simple circle won't bother me very much.


It's funny, I've been working on box designs for a couple days, and I keep wanting more and more different box sizes. But no way could I have the CNC company cut 15 different sizes with 50 or so of each. That's like 20 pallets of boxes.

I should consider getting a CNC machine and hiring a guy part time to cut stuff for everyone. Prices would probably still be the same even after I paid someone. Of course, the CNC company has a $150k + machine that cuts faster than anything I've seen. A part time employee would likely equal the overhead cost from the CNC company. I bet it would be a wash and keep pricing about the same. Not sure. I should probably stop thinking about that.

Then again, we've got a huge number of different SEOS boxes that need cut too.

Okay, I'm going to stop thinking now. I've got packages to box up for people, so I'm heading out to get them done.

Or buy a small CNC machine to cut the holes, and also modify the master cuts that you get from your main supplier...charge an up cost for hole cut outs, and custom sizing. But just so you know i cut a 16" hole in a 3 layers BB glue up for my box on my CNC....and then cut a larger recessed outer hole. and it took well over an hour...even though i did other things while it cut...there is a limit to home many you can do in a day.

Tim
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post #28 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 07:42 PM
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you could look into a used cnc, that would probably give you a better price performance ratio. Cutting the above mentioned hole through Baltic, or mdf, on the fadel I use at work wouldn't take more than five minutes, with a finish cut that made it look like jewelry.

Erich, could these be for those mystery 18's you where working on a while back? What's going on, on that front?

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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post #29 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I might look around and see what's going on. The CNC machine that the current company uses is massive. I think it has an 18hp spindle. When we were talking about subwoofers last week, I asked him how fast he normally cuts the wood. He said normally 1000 inches per minute or more. Uhhh, that's almost 1.5 feet per second! That's insane. I should try to get a video of that beast in action.

He said it will clock 3000 inches per minute, but you can't actually cut anything that fast. Not sure how fast they could actually cut, I'll ask this weekend or whenever I go there. They can cut 3/4" in one pass, but normally he'll program it to cut almost all the way through and also cut each part about 1/32" too big. Then have the machine change bits and go back and cut the remaining 1/32" material away to it's correct size, and cut the rest of the way through the material.



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Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

Erich, could these be for those mystery 18's you where working on a while back? What's going on, on that front?

The mystery 18's might be talked about some day. They didn't pan out like we were hoping, but I probably shouldn't mention too much about them. There was another forum member working with me on those, and another forum member did testing. They were okay, and pricing was good, but in the end, we were hoping for more X-max.

Having said that, I didn't give up. I'm getting some different samples sent to me in about 1 month. And there's another US company that is going to try and help out with something as well. I spoke to them early last week.

There was a US company over on the west coast that I was really hoping would pull through for everyone, but the owner must be incredibly busy or something. I emailed him monthly trying to get specs on some really high end stuff. I talked to him on the phone a couple times as well. But specs never really showed up, just a lot of promises. What stinks is that I know for a 100% fact he builds some great stuff. The whole thing seemed strange.


Hopefully the other US company shows something really nice. I'll start putting the pressure on next week.
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post #30 of 679 Old 04-04-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

Erich, could these be for those mystery 18's you where working on a while back? What's going on, on that front?

Kind of a cart before the horse moment. Most of us just need a flat pack for an 18"

DIY drivers are cheap, a sundown audio 18" will slay, the problem is paying $500 to elemental designs for a box on a driver that doesnt even cost that much.

Lets say you only have $650 for a passive sub and no woodworking tools, almost all of that goes towards the box. because a box is a box and its not like you can buy a cheaper box just because youre using a cheaper driver.

Want to measure your subwoofers? check out my dummies guide for a step by step process to Room EQ wizard
http://polaraudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/calibration.html
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