"Isolation pad" for subs? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 60 Old 02-03-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I put 4 hockey pucks on my subs @ $0.99 each.


Cheap and effective.

I am curious about this and will try this out as I have several spare pucks of same size. I want to remove my Emptek es1010i w spikes and downward ports from sitting directly on very thick carpet we have in out new home. If this does not work I will spend the money and buy the Auralex pad
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post #32 of 60 Old 02-03-2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratified View Post

Not to keep the sub from moving, but to isolate it from the floor.
Watch this. Pay particular attention to the last scene, where a clock is vibrating atop a chest of drawers in a room upstairs from the sub. If the proponents of the need for isolation were correct that would only happen if the subs were bolted to the ceiling. rolleyes.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A8gfoym5Uvs

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post #33 of 60 Old 02-03-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Watch this. Pay particular attention to the last scene, where a clock is vibrating atop a chest of drawers in a room upstairs from the sub. If the proponents of the need for isolation were correct that would only happen if the subs were bolted to the ceiling. rolleyes.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A8gfoym5Uvs

Nice post Bill, here we go again lol. If I ever built a sub that vibrates like what's being suggested, I would ship it off to.. well I guess I wouldn’t, it’s not the drivers fault. wink.gif

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post #34 of 60 Old 02-03-2014, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If the proponents of the need for isolation were correct that would only happen if the subs were bolted to the ceiling. rolleyes.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A8gfoym5Uvs

Nothing you say makes any sense. The point of isolation is to reduce exactly what you are demonstrating. Structure borne transmission is a bad thing. You don't want to be losing energy into other rooms, you want it all to be airborne in your listening space, not structure borne rattling everything.

lrn2acoustics. rattling =\= always good bass
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post #35 of 60 Old 02-03-2014, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fattmann View Post

Nothing you say makes any sense. The point of isolation is to reduce exactly what you are demonstrating. Structure borne transmission is a bad thing. You don't want to be losing energy into other rooms, you want it all to be airborne in your listening space, not structure borne rattling everything.

lrn2acoustics. rattling =\= always good bass

Thing is you can’t change sound pressure wave transmission by putting your sub on a piece of foam or anything else for that matter. It would be better to line your walls, floors and ceiling with said materials

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post #36 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Thing is you can’t change sound pressure wave transmission by putting your sub on a piece of foam or anything else for that matter.

Of course, isolation isn't going to stop the pressure wave. But this statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If the proponents of the need for isolation were correct that would only happen if the subs were bolted to the ceiling. rolleyes.gif

Is implying isolation is a waste of time. He's saying that if the need for isolation were "correct," that you could never get those results with a perfectly suspended speaker. Which is very much not the case.
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post #37 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:22 AM
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He's clearly stating that if isolating the sub was necessary the clock upstairs would only rattle if the sub was bolted to the ceiling (because how else could vibrations from the cabinet get to the clock upstairs, if it wasn't physically attached to the ceiling?). Since the rattling is caused by sounds waves and not the sub cabinet moving, a piece of foam/whatever under the sub will not stop it from happening.


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post #38 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rebel975 View Post

... if isolating the sub was actually a thing...

It's not a "thing," it's science.

Not everyone's system has the ability of pressurizing the entire floor plan of their structure to the point of rattling. Isolation is a common thing for vibration control. To imply it is hogwash is just silly.

His video showed no proof that his rattlings were not the result of structure borne vibrations, therefore misleading.

Once again, yeah, if you are hitting 100+ dBs at low freq, isolation will only do so much. But to imply it's a waste of time is just plain wrong. Especially if your listening room is above another sound sensitive space.
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post #39 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rebel975 View Post

He's clearly stating that if isolating the sub was necessary the clock upstairs would only rattle if the sub was bolted to the ceiling (because how else could vibrations from the cabinet get to the clock upstairs, if it wasn't physically attached to the ceiling?). Since the rattling is caused by sounds waves and not the sub cabinet moving, a piece of foam/whatever under the sub will not stop it from happening.

Blast. You are quicker than I, didn't get my previous post up before you edited yours lol.

It's not that it is Always necessary, but sometimes it is extremely helpful and will in fact reduce vibrations/sound transmission. Again it all depends on your levels.
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post #40 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:50 AM
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^^^ Without you knowing it, I take your assessment as you saying since your best sub placement is like to the left of the screen, mine in short will be also.. but see from your last post you're not.

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post #41 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by fattmann View Post

Blast. You are quicker than I, didn't get my previous post up before you edited yours lol.

It's not that it is Always necessary, but sometimes it is extremely helpful and will in fact reduce vibrations/sound transmission. Again it all depends on your levels.

Sorry, yeah, I realized that calling it a "thing" was weird and had to edit the post to better explain.

In any case, I was just trying to explain what BillF was getting at, since there seemed to be some misunderstanding there.

@Steve: What? Lol


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post #42 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 01:02 AM
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Wow 2012 one page 2014 the next. The ever going battle of Bill vs isolation pads. While I'm mostly on Bill's side due to my own experience, it does seem there are quite a few reports from guys on these forums that they have had improvement with rattles/buzzes/noises in their homes, usually citing a wood floor of sorts, with an isolation pad or puck of some sort (I believe SVS sells sorbothane based feet also btw). The rattles/buzzes I've had I've solved by attacking those particular vibrating items, I've never done any kind of isolation with my subs. I just moved and if anything this new place might have a wood floor less solid than my last one, but not by a whole lot. I have four subs operational in the house, all sitting on bare wood floors, and while this house has been modified since it was built, the floors don't seem all that different in construction.

OTOH, I have one dual opposed sub which is quite inert (it's my tv stand, and I do have a rubber mat that the tv sits on but more for the protection of the sub from the tv stand than the little vibration you can feel in the sub's cabinet); two others with a front firing driver but dual side mounted passive radiators so maybe that's kinda stable too; last sub is front firing and front ported. Other than the dual opposed, the cabinets are on the light side of things.

I do sorta remember Mark Seaton weighing in on the subject briefly to say a sub of his (not the dual opposed Submersive) did have some sort of floor movement they resolved by making it more difficult for the sub to move. I couldn't find that in a search, though, and my memory is suspect!

I'd really love to see the guys at Mythbusters have some fun with subs and this particular issue (like when they used a crankshaft on a huge cone in a car for some sort of record).

Now, for whatever it's worth, I don't think I've seen a single Auralex or other isolation device customer indicate there was an actual sound quality improvement from the suspension alone (rather than the absence of annoying vibration sounds). I also think this is a bit of a solution in search of a problem for most of us....but some new sub buyers think of these as needed accessories, which they should be better informed about....

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post #43 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 01:37 AM
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Has anyone ever calculated how much force a driver actually has? Moving mass x (acceleration of moving mass?) = ?? I just checked, and a UXL-18's moving mass is ~.84 lbs. But, I don't have a clue how you would calculate the acceleration.

I'm also curious if a "properly constructed/weighted" sub has ever been placed on top of a force gauge.

Sorry if this is a dumb question!


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post #44 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 03:25 AM
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Isolation pad lover or hater, isn't our goal as home theater/media room/audiophiles the 'perfect' reproduction in sound? If one thing helps in any small way, to me, it is worth it! A 1% improvement here and there adds up over time. I have used a sub isolation pad in the past for my Energy S10.3 sub(about 35lbs), and it helped.I was using the iso pad for vibration control. Did it kill all vibration? No, but it helped. I dont currently have one for my custom built sub(200+lbs), but plan on trying one. Will it help with the heavier sub? Don't know till I try it! If it doesn't, then I know when using lighter subs, the cost vs performance is worth it and not so much for heavier subs.Call it a $40 'bandaid' , if you will, for lighter subs.

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post #45 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 03:52 AM
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In my particular case, I chose to use the feet SVS sells with my PB1000.  We have laminate wood floors in our older (built in 1978) home, and the floors are not all perfectly flat.  The living room where the sub resides is over a large, open crawl space, and the living room has wood panel walls (that unfortunately have been covered with textured wallpaper...ugh).  If the sub were not "suspended" in some way, I was concerned I would end up with more "house rattle" and vibration than is necessary to achieve good sound/feel (especially when I can't guarantee the sub is sitting on a perfectly flat surface). 


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post #46 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 05:26 AM
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@Steve: What? Lol

What I was trying to relate (as poor as it might have been. EDIT> Hey it was late wink.gif ) is that I see it as a sub placement issue. I’m not doubting in some rooms hanging your sub from the ceiling might be the most optimal position same as to the left or right of the screen or wherever.
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lovin I'd really love to see the guys at Mythbusters have some fun with subs and this particular issue

I wouldn't miss it, +1

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post #47 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

it does seem there are quite a few reports from guys on these forums that they have had improvement with rattles/buzzes/noises in their homes
There are just as many reports of improved bass, clearer highs and better transients with high priced cables. rolleyes.gif
And there are just as many measured results backing up those claims as there are those of the isolationists. wink.gif
Pads can be effective in controlling dancing subs, whether the source of the dancing is Newton's Second Law or it's the floor vibrating beneath the sub as a result of sympathetic resonance. But that's all they're good for.
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post #48 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Pads can be effective in controlling dancing subs, whether the source of the dancing is Newton's Second Law or it's the floor vibrating beneath the sub as a result of sympathetic resonance. But that's all they're good for.
So with heavy subs, like say with your THT, they do not need isolation pads?
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post #49 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 12:24 PM
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So with heavy subs, like say with your THT, they do not need isolation pads?
If one has a soft enough floor that the acoustic output would cause the floor to vibrate then some sort of isolation would be in order. Carpet is sufficient, so are rubber feet. I've never had a report of a THT dancing, and if it happened someone would have posted a video of it.

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post #50 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

If one has a soft enough floor that the acoustic output would cause the floor to vibrate then some sort of isolation would be in order. Carpet is sufficient, so are rubber feet. I've never had a report of a THT dancing, and if it happened someone would have posted a video of it.
They just make everything else dance!!biggrin.gif
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post #51 of 60 Old 02-04-2014, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

it does seem there are quite a few reports from guys on these forums that they have had improvement with rattles/buzzes/noises in their homes
There are just as many reports of improved bass, clearer highs and better transients with high priced cables. rolleyes.gif
And there are just as many measured results backing up those claims as there are those of the isolationists. wink.gif
Pads can be effective in controlling dancing subs, whether the source of the dancing is Newton's Second Law or it's the floor vibrating beneath the sub as a result of sympathetic resonance. But that's all they're good for.

Equating something that isn't audible in the first place (cables) with something that is audible (rattles/vibration noises) is what makes me want more rigorous invetigation. Especially in that there are some fairly believable guys reporting such, you simply saying you don't believe them actually detracts from your credibility. Who's measured rattles/noises before and after? I don't believe you did that, did you? From what I remember you writing about your test, I found it rather lacking in terms of thoroughness....

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post #52 of 60 Old 02-05-2014, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Equating something that isn't audible in the first place (cables) with something that is audible (rattles/vibration noises) is what makes me want more rigorous invetigation. Especially in that there are some fairly believable guys reporting such, you simply saying you don't believe them actually detracts from your credibility.
I believe that they believe that they heard a difference. The same applies to those who believe that they heard a difference with expensive cables. Without objective data to support the subjective conclusions drawn it's all just personal opinion as to what actually occurred. Personal opinion unsupported by factual data is fine in a discussion of religion or politics, but not where engineering is concerned.
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Who's measured rattles/noises before and after?
I have. I found no difference, in the room, in the next room, in the room below, using identical test protocols with the only alteration being having the cabs isolated versus not isolated.

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post #53 of 60 Old 02-05-2014, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Who's measured rattles/noises before and after? I don't believe you did that, did you?

Not exactly what you're asking for, but here are some measurements and some theory behind the Sonic Design damping feet: http://www.sonicdesign.se/sdfeet.html
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post #54 of 60 Old 02-05-2014, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

it does seem there are quite a few reports from guys on these forums that they have had improvement with rattles/buzzes/noises in their homes
There are just as many reports of improved bass, clearer highs and better transients with high priced cables. rolleyes.gif
And there are just as many measured results backing up those claims as there are those of the isolationists. wink.gif
Pads can be effective in controlling dancing subs, whether the source of the dancing is Newton's Second Law or it's the floor vibrating beneath the sub as a result of sympathetic resonance. But that's all they're good for.

There's not much parallel between a sound that is tangible, as a rattle/vibration, as opposed to a cable where its a figment of imagination. Sure, some guys get excited about some review and buy a silly cable, or think that for the price it's a good "accessory". I have read only a very few excited reviews from users here that indicate the sub pads increase sound quality, but quite a few say it tames extraneous noises in their houses. Perhaps you read more of these but I've read a fair number of them (and am subscribed to a few) and mostly the claim for reducing extraneous noises is what interests me, but you apparently just want to keep harping on the sub's sound quality claims that I've seen very few of. So be it, whatever floats your boat. Your "test" still wasn't rigorous in this respect, you didn't even try....

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post #55 of 60 Old 02-05-2014, 05:30 PM
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I have a stone floor and my subs have huge rubber feet ... Would that not be enough?

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post #56 of 60 Old 02-05-2014, 07:33 PM
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I have a stone floor and my subs have huge rubber feet ... Would that not be enough?
Enough to keep the sub from dancing? That depends on a number of factors, basically boiling down to if the friction between the cab and floor is sufficient to resist the motive force created by the driver. If it isn't then you need to increase that friction. That, BTW, is what spikes accomplish on a carpeted floor. With a stone floor you'd need a material with a high drag coefficient between the sub and floor. I recommend trying this stuff because it's made to adhere to the floor, and it's soft enough to give good grab on the bottom of the sub, as well as absorbing any rocking:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=202015909&R=202015909#.UP66YGeYUYc

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post #57 of 60 Old 05-19-2014, 11:51 PM
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Sorry to dredge this up again... but it's really bothering me and I just can't let it go. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, either.
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I have. I found no difference, in the room, in the next room, in the room below, using identical test protocols with the only alteration being having the cabs isolated versus not isolated.

That's a simple anecdote, not a rigorous controlled experiment. Not everyone's room and house has the same construction as yours. Nor do they have the same decor layout and kitchware layout. That's great that your structure doesn't have the same extensive problems as other people's structures. I'm sure many would trade positions with you, in this regard.

Kitchenware rattling is pretty obvious and are FAR from subjective. If you play the same scene, at the same levels, and without the isolation pad, some kitchen plates rattle, and with the isolation pad, they don't, then the isolation pad works. It's that simple. Trying to hand-wave such obvious OBJECTIVE data away by ignoring the simple facts is just about as stubborn, hard-nosed and dubious as the people that tout the 'magic sound improvement cables' you mention earlier. I normally agree with what you write, but I'm absolutely floored by your opinions on this matter.
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post #58 of 60 Old 05-20-2014, 12:39 AM
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i don't think he disagreed with you.

coupling a sub to the home in some way vs. isolating it can cause/remove rattles. that is known.

however, not everybody has rattles as a problem. for those who don't, isolation may not do anything.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #59 of 60 Old 05-20-2014, 01:35 AM
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Purely subjective but the large majority of people buying these products do to combat rattles. Of course they work. As stated some houses are built better then others. Now only if they gave you another 5dbs at 15hz smile.gif
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post #60 of 60 Old 05-20-2014, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Purely subjective but the large majority of people buying these products do to combat rattles.
The only rattle that they can control is the rattling of a sub on a vibrating floor. The advertising for these would lead one to believe that a floor vibrates due to direct contact with the sub. That fallacy passes the smell test where the average layman is concerned, but in the DIY community the level of knowledge is considerably higher, and most are aware that a floor vibrates in resonance with the long wavelengths produced by the sub, not because the sub is in contact with it.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
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