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Old 04-11-2012, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I currently have two enclosures dual opposed, each about 7.5 internal each loaded with two of the mfw-15 drivers. I currently run each cab in series, for a resistance load of 8ohm nominal per cab. I feed each cab with one channel of my ep4000.

I am very seriously considering buying four of the sundown audio SA-15's dvc 4ohm and dropping them into my cabs.

Thinking I could wire each speaker to 2 ohm, then wire in series to show my ep a 4 ohm nom load, thereby effectively doubling amp power, and excursion. With these parameters, what would I see real world?

Would it be in my best interest to make new cabs?

In theroy, I could wire my two exsisting dual opposed cabs in parallel to see 4 ohms over 4 drivers, then integrate two more dual opposed cabs loaded with sundown drivers also at 4 ohms.. what would that look like?

I am not at all familar with modeling software, which is why I am asking for help.

I do have a mini dsp inline providing a boost to the low end, and a little gain in the bass drum area 60-80hz.


Thanks in advance and if I build for sure I will post a build thread.

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile34 View Post

Thinking I could wire each speaker to 2 ohm, then wire in series to show my ep a 4 ohm nom load, thereby effectively doubling amp power, and excursion. With these parameters, what would I see real world?

Almost no amplifiers double down, ie produce twice the power into half the load.

With the EP2500, the measured result for 8Ω is 450W and 4Ω is 633W or 1.5dB difference. So you'll get a 4.5dB difference by doubling drivers and proportionally less displacement.

I don't have the parameters for either driver to hand, so post them (or links) and I'll run some sims.
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Old 04-12-2012, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know where to find the specs on the mfw drivers, but I know that lots of people used to model them around a year ago when they where the hot item for sale. Hopefully someone still has the specs.

As far as the sundown driver goes, a quick Google search under "Sundown audio Sa-15 series" led me to a PDF that had all the specs there.

I don't know how to post a PDF on here, but I copied the values that I know you need.. here they are..

FS : 30.9 Hz
Qts : 0.60
Qes : 0.66
Qms : 6.12
VAS : 92.7 L

600 watts rms.

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:36 PM
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that info.. anyone care to help? I contacted a local sundown retailer today and I can get 4 for around 1000.. so what difference would I see. We are talking 1000$ vs 308$ I would hope I will see a significant difference..

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:50 PM
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The SA series is very versatile, taking well to many types of enclosures. The SA15 prefers larger volume if you choose a sealed alignment. I can sim up a couple of cabs if you'd like. For the record, the Zv3 18 is quite formidable.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-12-2012, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree that the Sv3-18 is the ultimate when it comes to sundown. But to my knowledge 2 of the sa 15s beat the sv3..

I was hoping to be able to use my ep 400 to power what I end up going with.

I am not opposed to building new cabs and using them in conjunction with my dual opposed cabs I already have.

Maybe I should build cabs simaler to Nots, (two drivers per cab facing lp) with the sundowns, and keep my mfw's for rear fill and room correction.

What would 4 sundowns, with four mfws do? I would like to stay using my ep as my only amp, if I can...

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:10 PM
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2 SA15 will displace 3.8l, 1 Zv3 18 will displace 3.9l. They are very close. It would be roughly the same cost and enclosure volume for a pair of dual opposed SA15 vs Zv318. I can pop out some simulations of each on an EP4k for you in a couple of hours.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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So you are saying hat 2 18's wil beat the 4 15's in displacement?

But dont the 18's require much more juice than than a single ep can push?

Ah crap I sense a new amp purchase in my future.

So I keep the two dual opposed mfw set up powered by my ep 4000.

Then I buy (2) of the zv3 18's what amp should I buy? Another ep and run them in parallel?

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:25 PM
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The SA15 are a conservative 600w per, the Z 1500. Both alignments would prefer a pair of EP4k. You could get into something like an Ashly KLR-3200 if you wanted to use one amp for both cabs.

I have all of these drivers mentioned and in my opinion the Z is the best sounding of them. The others are no slouch, but the Z just has a sweet transparent effortlessness in the 2 cabinets I have sampled it in, and it is hard to push it out of line.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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anxiously awaiting some sims. I am getting a little funny feeling down there thinking about it...

My first DIY project. A dual, dual opposed setup

www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1345494
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:29 PM
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I have one game left in my league, 2hrs at the most I'll pop out a few traces

Also, there are some SA15s left in stock, and Z are built to order with a 7-10 day lead time.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:37 PM
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edit: TWO sa-15 looks fine in ~8 cubic feet sealed in model and seems like a reasonable value.

the question is what does the frequency response look like measured. lately, there have been some drivers with very large inductance humps.

the alpine 1542 (two also) models the same in ~5 cubic feet sealed. the larger sd and slightly larger xmax and higher power handling give it a couple db advantage max spl in model. $199 street.
LL

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:48 PM
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The plan is to send Ricci my SA15 soon for verification. He has just been busy with a few other drivers and some personal events. The Z is a known quantity, and doesn't have severe inductance issues. It exhibits a bit of high end roll off, but nothing extreme like some of the drivers.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-12-2012, 08:36 PM
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that's cool. and i know it is a delicate matter, but if he had the xmax klippel confirmed, where are the rest of the klippel results?

also, updated my post to make it clear that two drives produce the results in my post.

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Old 04-12-2012, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

that's cool. and i know it is a delicate matter, but if he had the xmax klippel confirmed, where are the rest of the klippel results?

I'm pretty sure the SA8v2 is the only model fully kippel analyzed. This is a guess, but I think the plan is that all models with the new baskets will be submitted.

Attachment 243400
Here is a pair of SA15 vs 1 Zv3 18 in 5 subes sealed. The SA15 are at 1200w, their rated power. That is conservative, they could probably handle closer to 1500w. The Zv3 is at 1800w, pretty much best case out of an EP4k.

As far as the power handling of the Zv3, I'll find out this weekend as I'll probably be dumping 1600-3200 into it for 6 or so hours.
LL

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-15-2012, 03:06 PM
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Good discussion on Sundown SA's, in particular sealed. I have yet to find a single person in any forum (Car Audio or HT) that runs these sealed.

I've been speculating running either 2 JL Audio 10W3v3's or 2 Sundown SA-10's both in an ideal .707 QTC sealed alignment in my car.

From the modelling I've done and my power requirements (1200 watts), the JL's consistently model better as they are ALOT more sensitive.

I would love to hear peoples real world thoughts on these Sundown SA's.

Blue = 2 JL 10W3V3 - 1.25 cu total - 1000 watts
Orange = 2 Sundown SA10 - 1 cu foot total - 1000 watts

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Old 04-15-2012, 05:50 PM
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I have a pair of 10w3v3-4 that were in my Sunfire before I went to 4 12s. If you are looking for a deal let me know.

The SA series is quite underrated. I was dumping 1600 a pair into the SA12s last night and they didn't even warm up. I also have an SD-2 10" in too small of an enclosure and it is quite impressive. I still have to reverse engineer it to get a volume and sim.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-15-2012, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

I have a pair of 10w3v3-4 that were in my Sunfire before I went to 4 12s. If you are looking for a deal let me know.

The SA series is quite underrated. I was dumping 1600 a pair into the SA12s last night and they didn't even warm up. I also have an SD-2 10" in too small of an enclosure and it is quite impressive. I still have to reverse engineer it to get a volume and sim.

You running the SA's sealed or ported?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:23 PM
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I run 4 SD-2 12" sealed in the Sunfire, and the 4 SA12s are currently in 2.5ft3 tuned to 25. I have a SD-2 10" in a sealed cabinet that I'm playing with as well.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-15-2012, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

I run 4 SD-2 12" sealed in the Sunfire, and the 4 SA12s are currently in 2.5ft3 tuned to 25. I have a SD-2 10" in a sealed cabinet that I'm playing with as well.


So having had both (W3v3 and the SA's), What is more efficient sealed?

I've only got 1200 watts RMS to play with and would like to run dual.

Thanks again for your help
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:41 PM
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The SA10 will displace more than the 10w3v3, and has better motor cooling. At 1200w I don't think you would be disappointed with either choice, but for durability and price I would pick the SA10.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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Old 04-15-2012, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

The SA10 will displace more than the 10w3v3, and has better motor cooling. At 1200w I don't think you would be disappointed with either choice, but for durability and price I would pick the SA10.

Even with 1200 watts on 2 of the subs? The modelling told me the SA's just suck down power and won't be as loud on 1200 watts compared to the JL.

Blue = 2 JL 10W3V3 - 1.25 cu total - 1000 watts
Orange = 2 Sundown SA10 - 1 cu foot total - 1000 watts

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Old 04-15-2012, 06:58 PM
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I was able to get the 10w3v3s to complain with 1kw to the pair, they weren't enough in the convertible and that pushed the move to 4 12s. The more advanced cooling of the SAs will reduce power compression as well, so those numbers may end up closer after 10 or 15 minutes.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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