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post #1 of 53 Old 04-12-2012, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello, long time lurker here starting a home theater project. I'm on a budget, I'm currently selling off my vintage video game collection and turning it into a home theater. I have everything picked out (already bought front floor standing speakers and reciever) except the subwoofer. We're coming from a htib setup, so the 2 speakers are already better. We had the polk audio psw10, but we sold it because it just wasn't enough on the low end.

I can't measure exactly right now because the tape is in my gf's car, but the room is roughly 20x20x10ft. The budget is about $250 for the sub, ouch. Here is what I have picked out so far:

Unfortunately it won't let me post links because I am a new member, so I will have to post model numbers for you to look up, sorry

$200 until the 18th on newegg

psw505

and this is out of my range, but would be nice

Dayton Audio C1500K 15" Powered Subwoofer Kit

I'm not too sure about the polk audio. But I do have an alternative and that's why a came here to the diy section. I happened to have these sitting in my basement for last 4 years, here's the pics and specs:

Sony XS-L1236



Audiobahn AW121T

infinity 1252W



What I would like to know is if say, I could build a box for the 2 cheap-o xplods and purchase an amp that can power them both, and have better results than the two retail choices that I'm looking at. Time and work is not a factor, I'm always doing some pointless tinkering with my spare time. I know making 2 separate boxes for 2 of my subs would be ideal, but I figured it would be cheaper to drive them both with one decent amp in an upright standing ported box. Just gotta come up with some kind of fabric grill to cover the horrid looking things.

edit: They are 4ohm's, so if I have to run them in series, no big deal.

I've been reading a lot, and you guys get a lot of questions about car subs in home theater, but I don't know what to think since I already have the subs, so this really brings down the price with my low budget. And if I do go this route and don't like the sound of these old cheap subs, I can always just buy some real ones down the road and toss these things (although if I were to buy real ones I would prefer 15", so I may make the box a little wider if I can just in case).

Thanks in advance for your input!
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post #2 of 53 Old 04-12-2012, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, is it ok to run 2 subwoofers from one amp? I was thinking if this doesn't sound like crap then I'll make a second one with the other 2 subwoofers. If it does sound like crap, I'm just going to build a single 15" one and forget this "stacking" idea.
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post #3 of 53 Old 04-12-2012, 05:14 PM
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My advice, get the best amp your budget allows, e.g. used EP2500/EP4000 or similar. The Infinity is probably the best out of the 4, and you may end up keeping that one.

You can run different subs from one amp, but you should not mix them in the same box.
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post #4 of 53 Old 04-12-2012, 05:28 PM
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I used to have a few of those reference infinity's and they're a pretty low line speaker. I think he'd probably get the best output from the 2 sony's but the sq might be pretty bad. The audiobahn looks like it was modeled after the old Punch series Rockford Fosgate speakers and they were pretty decent subs in their day. My money says it would sound the best. Those Infinity speakers were really cheap. I had better output from a single JL8w6 than two of them.

I definitely agree to spend most of the budget on a good amp then materials to build something for what he already has. With a good amp in the house he can always upgrade to a better speaker later...

Oh and yes it's fine to run multiple speakers from one amp. You just need to learn about impedance and how to wire them. If you have 2 4 ohm speakers you'll end up either running them stereo at 4ohm or mono in either 2 or 8 ohm. You need to make sure whatever amp you buy is stable at whatever load you choose to present to it.
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post #5 of 53 Old 04-13-2012, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I like your amp suggestion of a used EP2500/EP4000. I was originally looking here:

parts-express subwoofer amps (still can't post links)

I didn't realize there were such good amps like you suggested, I just started researching. Do you have any other suggestions like that? Right now I'm set on getting a used 2500. I'm curious if it will power all 4 of these.

I decided that I won't really be mixing them in the same box, they will have a divider between them, and will each have their own port. I'm going to hook all of these speakers up to my car after class today to see if they even work, let alone sound any good before I buy anything. I'll update on that later, thanks for the input.

I just wanted to clarify, I don't doubt the amp can power all of the subwoofers, I've just never tried building one of these before, so I don't really know how to wire it up yet. I have some reading to do, and when I get everything I'm sure I'll be back here to ask some questions about hooking everything up with the ohms and what-not.

So going with the diy setup with the crappy subs is the better way to go as opposed to getting the psw505 right?
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post #6 of 53 Old 04-13-2012, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post

I like your amp suggestion of a used EP2500/EP4000. I was originally looking here:

parts-express subwoofer amps (still can't post links)

I didn't realize there were such good amps like you suggested, I just started researching. Do you have any other suggestions like that? Right now I'm set on getting a used 2500. I'm curious if it will power all 4 of these.

I decided that I won't really be mixing them in the same box, they will have a divider between them, and will each have their own port. I'm going to hook all of these speakers up to my car after class today to see if they even work, let alone sound any good before I buy anything. I'll update on that later, thanks for the input.

I just wanted to clarify, I don't doubt the amp can power all of the subwoofers, I've just never tried building one of these before, so I don't really know how to wire it up yet. I have some reading to do, and when I get everything I'm sure I'll be back here to ask some questions about hooking everything up with the ohms and what-not.

So going with the diy setup with the crappy subs is the better way to go as opposed to getting the psw505 right?

The decision to go DIY is yours alone. I'm sure you would enjoy that Polk or similar sub, one purchase, done for a while.

Powering all of those with an EP2500 is no problem, and it will probably surprise you. You will be set for getting whatever drivers you want later. The best place I have found for an EP 4000 new is at Unique Squared's flea bay site:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Behringer-EP...ht_2481wt_1187
They must have just gone up in price, I know they were less than $310 a couple of weeks ago. I bought a 2500 from them 3 years ago, still going strong.

The cheapest place I have found for a iNUKE3000 is at Dirt Cheep Music, no experience purchasing from them:

http://www.dirtcheepdirect.com/produ...er-125566.html

Make sure you get any used amp demoed prior to purchase.
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post #7 of 53 Old 04-13-2012, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input. I'm going to go diy, I like the idea of getting a decent amp and having the option to get better subwoofers / build new boxes in the future without having to worry about an amp. I'll update when the project is finished or if I need help.

I want to go with the ep2500, and I see a used one for auction on ebay for pretty cheap. I know you said to test a used one first, but I think I'm gonna take the chance because the seller has a 14 day return policy.
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post #8 of 53 Old 04-13-2012, 05:47 PM
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look at the sundown audio "E" series drivers...great company...just introducing this new entry level line.

Tim
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post #9 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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tundrSQ, thanks for the suggestion, but I couldn't find very many discussions on that series of subwoofers.

So I only sold half of my games, and I made more money than I thought all of them would sell for so my budget has increased. I went ahead and ordered the ep4000. I was going to get an ep2000 but we are going to do a projector home theater in the basement when we buy our house, so we figured we may as well get the extra power since we don't know how big our basement will be. For now we will be powering the cheap old 12" car subs until we decide on the new subs.

We are trying to decide between these from parts-express:

2x Dayton Audio DCS450-4 18" Classic Subwoofer 4 Ohm

or

1x Pyle Pro PDW18125 18" High Power Subwoofer (If the rest of the games sell well, we could afford 2 of these)

I just started researching this whole world of diy, so I'm pretty much going in blind. Because of our layout, if we go with 2 subwoofers, they will have to be in a single tall box (about 4 feet high max). Is there any advantage to running 2 subwoofers when you aren't spreading them out around the room? If it's not very significant, is this pyle brand any good as an alternative to the 18" dayton classic? According to the specs it's much more powerful for an extra $15. We would prefer a ported box because we want it to go lower. Size isn't really a problem as long as it doesn't go above 4ft.

And last question. Can you guys point me towards some good software for finding out the cubic feet of the enclosure and ports, because I've been punching in numbers into random software spit out by google, and it's driving me insane... no consistency.
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post #10 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 10:08 PM
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Let me see if I can help.

1) I'd stay away from Pyle anything - at least that's what I learned here on the boards. I tried modeling that 18" classic and it didn't look as good as the 15" HF, which is what I went with. Sounds incredible, and really don't know what better would sound like. Maybe get multiple 15" subs?

2) the modeling program is easy. WinIsd works. The alpha, or pro version is more complete, giving you airflow through ports and cone excursion. What it lacks is the ability to do box size, so I still use winIsd beta for box sizes. Also, winIsd pro doesn't shut down properly, I have to control-alt-delete to shut it down, but it's such a useful program I don't mind.
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post #11 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

Also, winIsd pro doesn't shut down properly, I have to control-alt-delete to shut it down, but it's such a useful program I don't mind.

What OS are you running?

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #12 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 10:33 PM
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I'm no expert by any means but the magnet and the power handling of that woofer don't look good. I think they are more for a "Classic" type setting, IE: old school boxes or 3 ways that need that big of woofer.

I agree with the other guy that your best bet is to probably go with 15's. I don't think you'll loose to much spl by doing that.

If you look at the power handling on the 15" subs they are actually higher than that classic. I'm willing to bet they'd get louder as well. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-468
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post #13 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 10:41 PM
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Here's a sight with a good collection of subs. I highly recommend Acendant Audio, although they have gotten really expensive over the years.http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/s...onsAudio/DCON/
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post #14 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok you mean this right, RSS390HF-4 ? I see the dayton's get good reviews, and that's why I was looking at them. I'm aiming for a "bang for buck" deal, and the buck is low. That's why I thought going with entry level 18's was a good idea, especially since we will have to fill an entire basement with bass at some point.

I was skeptical about the pyle, everyone is trying to inflate their power ratings, but for that speaker it's saying 800 watts rms. It was ringing a scam bell with me, but my foolish side was saying maybe it's true...

Thank you for the 2x combo of software, I'll stick with that for now.

Acendant Audio is looking a little too expensive. I'm starting to think I will go down to a 15" reference dayton. I was attracted to the 18" daytons, I figured 2x huge subs would be badass. My new budget would allow 2x 18" dayton classics, so it can also allow a single Dayton Audio TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm.

So what do you think will sound better? I wish I could demo these things lol.
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post #15 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
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What OS are you running?

Windows 7 Home Premium
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post #16 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post

Ok you mean this right, RSS390HF-4 ? I see the dayton's get good reviews, and that's why I was looking at them. I'm aiming for a "bang for buck" deal, and the buck is low. That's why I thought going with entry level 18's was a good idea, especially since we will have to fill an entire basement with bass at some point.

I was skeptical about the pyle, everyone is trying to inflate their power ratings, but for that speaker it's saying 800 watts rms. It was ringing a scam bell with me, but my foolish side was saying maybe it's true...

Thank you for the 2x combo of software, I'll stick with that for now.

Acendant Audio is looking a little too expensive. I'm starting to think I will go down to a 15" reference dayton. I was attracted to the 18" daytons, I figured 2x huge subs would be badass. My new budget would allow 2x 18" dayton classics, so it can also allow a single Dayton Audio TIT400C-4 15" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm.

So what do you think will sound better? I wish I could demo these things lol.

Once you start modelling the different speakers in WinISD pro you'll see what I mean. I think the 15" HF is the way to go. And if you can, get two of them. But depending on the size of your basement, one will probably be overkill. I'm using the Bash 300 amp with it. The downside to this driver is that it needs a big box, and you said box size is not a problem.

I considered the Titanic version, but the reviews said the HF has better sound quality.
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post #17 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 11:29 PM
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If you have the means and the time, I would do what this guy did:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1403569

That capability and excursion makes me drool
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post #18 of 53 Old 04-16-2012, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

If you have the means and the time, I would do what this guy did:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1403569

That capability and excursion makes me drool

haha I was just looking at that thread. That's overkill for me, but I like it.

@subjga, the 15" hf does look good. Are there any 18" subs worth buying in my range? I thought they would be cool, so maybe I still need to be talked out of that phase.

An even more important question that hasn't been answered though, will 2 subwoofers in the same box be worth it? I've googled around and haven't come up with an answer. I know that if you put 2 in different sides of the room you get a more full effect, but is it a waste of time/money to build a speaker with a sub on top of a sub?
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post #19 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 01:00 AM
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I use to have two phoenix gold 15 inch subwoofers in my pioneer 15 inch floorstanding speakers woofer blew after 3 years. I used them for music and movies. They would hit hard. I blew the phoenix golds after only 9 months though. I used the bass boost button to loud for to long.
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post #20 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

Windows 7 Home Premium

This worked for me to alleviate this issue:


Right Click on the WinIsd.exe, select properties. This will bring up a window, go to compatibility tab.

Click the check box for "Run this program in compatibility mode for", and select win98/ME from the drop down menu.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #21 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSounds View Post

This worked for me to alleviate this issue:


Right Click on the WinIsd.exe, select properties. This will bring up a window, go to compatibility tab.

Click the check box for "Run this program in compatibility mode for", and select win98/ME from the drop down menu.

Thanks WiSounds! Worked like a charm! Now the program closes normally, the way it should.
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post #22 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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So I've decided on the dayton reference hf 15", thanks for the help with that. Depending on how much the rest of the games go for on fleabay, I may get 2 of them. I started messing around with winisd pro to get an idea of what the box is going to be like, but I haven't quite gotten a grasp on it yet.

Here are the specs for it:

Specifications: Power handling: 500 watts RMS/800 watts max VCdia: 2-1/2" Le: 1.00 mH Impedance: 4 ohms Re: 3.3 ohms Frequency range: 18 - 800 Hz Fs: 18 Hz Magnet weight: 150 oz. SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m Vas: 9.95 cu. ft. Qms: 3.10 Qes: 0.49 Qts: 0.42 Xmax: 14 mm Dimensions: Overall diameter: 15-5/16", Cutout diameter: 14-1/8", Depth: 6-5/8".

I'm trying to find out what size the box is going to be, because like I said, I have a big space to put it in, but it can't go over 4ft. So I want to know if I'll even be able to get 2 and make a big vertical box.

So when I run the numbers through, it tells me I need a 12.494 ft^3 box tuned to 16.82. I don't know if that is the frequency that I should be shooting for, that's just what the software's input. The graph (which is alien to me) goes up, and then straightens out and goes completely horizontal. The graphs that I've seen in examples go up and then back down slightly, which leads me to believe that I'm doing something wrong. It also leads me to believe that I have no idea what I'm talking about but I am stubborn and persistent.

And then the ports, I don't understand how to make them and not get port noise. In the beta version, you get the "vent mach" thing, but for the pro version, I don't see an option to see if you're going to have too much port noise.
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post #23 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post

It also leads me to believe that I have no idea what I'm talking about

sounds like that might be true! It's not all that complex though, stick with it and you'll figure it out. First off, that driver does fairly well in a sealed box, something to consider.

Secondly the graph is showing the SPL vs frequency when people have it rolled off on both ends it is most likely because that it is simulated with a low pass filter. I'm afraid I don't ever use WinISD as I'm on a mac so I can't help you with the details... there are plenty here who do though.
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post #24 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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A sealed box would be nice, so much easier to figure out. The reason for going with a ported box is because we want to be able to get down to 18 - 20hz range if possible. I also have to take into consideration some kind of high-pass filter so I don't kill them. Anyone else have a response to my previous post?
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post #25 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 01:10 PM
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I think your amp should have a high-pass filter built into it. I don't have access to Winsd at work or I would try to help. You might try this forum as well.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2
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post #26 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I got the ep4000, which I believe has a high-pass filter of 30hz, so it isn't going to do the trick for me.
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post #27 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post

A sealed box would be nice, so much easier to figure out. The reason for going with a ported box is because we want to be able to get down to 18 - 20hz range if possible. I also have to take into consideration some kind of high-pass filter so I don't kill them. Anyone else have a response to my previous post?

You definitely will be happy with that driver for whatever you use it for. I installed one at my daughter's home in a 4.5 cu. ft. sealed with an EP2500, a little slice of heaven. If you go sealed, 4.5 cu. ft. is about the sweet spot. Go here for a box enclosure volume calculator.

Port noise: If I'm not mistaken, you need to keep port velocity under 18 m/s, someone else can chime in here.

Earlier you said box size is not an issue, why not go with Lil Mike's F-20? That would surely shake the foundation with 300 watts, but you will need a HP filter. I'm not sure what your "4 ft." limitation is.
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post #28 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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the 4ft height limitation is because it will be going under a window, and I don't want it too block the window. Depth and width however are not a problem.
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post #29 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doodoobutter View Post

So when I run the numbers through, it tells me I need a 12.494 ft^3 box tuned to 16.82. I don't know if that is the frequency that I should be shooting for, that's just what the software's input. The graph (which is alien to me) goes up, and then straightens out and goes completely horizontal. The graphs that I've seen in examples go up and then back down slightly, which leads me to believe that I'm doing something wrong. It also leads me to believe that I have no idea what I'm talking about but I am stubborn and persistent.

And then the ports, I don't understand how to make them and not get port noise. In the beta version, you get the "vent mach" thing, but for the pro version, I don't see an option to see if you're going to have too much port noise.

I remember getting those same numbers, but that box was too big for me. Here is my exact box: 7.4 cu ft (after bracing and driver volume loss) with 2 4-inch flared ports, 17 inches each. This gives a box tune of 21.6 Hz (or something like that, I don't have the program in from of me now.) The BASH 300 amp supposedly has a 17.7 Hz HPF, but I've seen the driver moving at 8 Hz.

Sound is just downright amazing. Someone else mentioned doing a lilmike Cinema F20 - I agree, make two of those! Let us know what you come up with.

Oh, as far as the graph - the program gives you the ideal flat response, as you make the box smaller, you start to see that hump you mentioned.

In the end it comes down to all sorts of compromises. Sometimes you realize you can't fit a port as long as needed in the box you modeled (that's the main thing I kept running into). Anyways, good luck!
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post #30 of 53 Old 04-17-2012, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The box isn't too big for me, so I think I'm just going to build it how winisd pro is telling me to. I'm still now sure how to tell if the ports are the right size. Is winisd beta accurate enough on the port noise calculations with multiple ports (vent mach)? If it is, I'll use that instead, because I can't figure out how to use the pro version.

I also need an opinion on the high-pass filter. Do I need one? It has to be cheap, because my budget is going to be thin after I purchase the sub(s). I think I saw some that look like little adapters between the rca and amp input. Are those any good, and what frequency should I be cutting off at, if I even need to at all?

Thanks, I'm pretty sure I won't have any more questions after that
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