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post #31 of 51 Old 05-16-2012, 09:34 AM
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Nice setup! Have you had anything big fall off the walls yet? Make sure any light fixture globes you have are attached well. I killed our ceiling fan globe ... and a 70lb hunk of wall art. The THX logo at the beginning of the last Indiana Jones movie was wicked.

My setup is the same as yours, but with Mach 5 IXL-18.4s (I was the 1st IB installation with the drivers) and the manifolds are in the attic. I was surprised at how long it took the drivers to break in. After 2 weeks I was thinking IB wasn't going to give me what I wanted and considered removing everything. I stayed with it and within a month or two of occasional use, the IB opened up. Now the IB rumbles happily with anything I throw at it.
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post #32 of 51 Old 05-16-2012, 09:38 AM
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Very nice
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post #33 of 51 Old 05-29-2012, 01:57 AM
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Good job Brew, glad you and so many other IB users are overwhelmed with happiness when your setup is in use, but at the same time, I HATE YOU!! I have a quad 18" IB setup in my small HT and although I'm still working on smoothing out my room response, I have yet to feel or hear anything like what you guys describe. Get's me down I tell ya

But I'm happy that your happy
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post #34 of 51 Old 07-23-2012, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Good job Brew, glad you and so many other IB users are overwhelmed with happiness when your setup is in use, but at the same time, I HATE YOU!! I have a quad 18" IB setup in my small HT and although I'm still working on smoothing out my room response, I have yet to feel or hear anything like what you guys describe. Get's me down I tell ya



But I'm happy that your happy

If your IB is set up right, the awesomeness of the really low stuff (below 20hz, the "move the furniture" stuff) is impossible to avoid.

HOWEVER.

In the audible range, an IB can lack impact.... even though it measures better than any other type of subwoofer.

I have a theory about why that is.

Almost ANY content that has been mastered or tweaked in a studio was done so with subwoofers far less capable than an IB subwoofer. When the "Boom" imparted by most (inferior) box subwoofers is taken down by a competent mixer, the resultant audio track is going to sound weak on a IB sub which doesn't require the "Boom" to be taken out.

On the other hand, if you listen to a live recording, that has gone straight from the microphone to the tape with no in-studio tweaking, or sub-frequencies that were put into a movie soundtrack with the engineer just looking at an ideal graph.... the IB slays it.

Pick your poison.

For me, after listening awhile, the clairity of the IB outweighs it's ability to expose poorly mastered content.
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post #35 of 51 Old 07-24-2012, 12:12 AM
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In my room, regarding the super LFE and even though I'm not even slightly near to hitting the potential the setup offers, there's not much I DO feel, especially my front row, granted it's almost in the middle of the room, I really don't feel anything when some of those bassy scenes are playing. To be honest though, I haven't played many of those notoriouis bass scenes yet except for the footstomps of Abomination in "The Hulk", there's really not much excitement or anything to be "wowed" by.

What do you think I'm missing? All of my speakers are level matched, the subs are not "hot" nor are they "cold", and my graphs seem to show that the subs do well down to 5hz, but I don't really feel anything except my cloths vibrats a little once in a while. I guess I can't compalin too much yet because I'm working on getting some filler subs for the back of the room to tame a huge peak and dip at the back row, hopefully that will help with the lack of bass in the front well as well.

Idk rolleyes.gif

Oh, and as far as clean bass goes? I haven't heard too many "box subs" before but I'm not hearing what you guys are describing, it sounds like any old subwoofer to me and if anything, a bit dirty. Maybe that's the muddyness poking it's head through? Mud IS dirty, so... I don't know
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post #36 of 51 Old 07-24-2012, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

If your IB is set up right, the awesomeness of the really low stuff (below 20hz, the "move the furniture" stuff) is impossible to avoid.
HOWEVER.
In the audible range, an IB can lack impact.... even though it measures better than any other type of subwoofer.
I have a theory about why that is.
Almost ANY content that has been mastered or tweaked in a studio was done so with subwoofers far less capable than an IB subwoofer. When the "Boom" imparted by most (inferior) box subwoofers is taken down by a competent mixer, the resultant audio track is going to sound weak on a IB sub which doesn't require the "Boom" to be taken out.
On the other hand, if you listen to a live recording, that has gone straight from the microphone to the tape with no in-studio tweaking, or sub-frequencies that were put into a movie soundtrack with the engineer just looking at an ideal graph.... the IB slays it.
Pick your poison.
For me, after listening awhile, the clairity of the IB outweighs it's ability to expose poorly mastered content.

I believe with my setup it really isnt that LOUD, but the displacement literally significantly shakes the floor. Not just vibrate, but actually moves it. The sensation of that makes me think it is louder than it is. Consequently, I dont notice a ton of upper bass. It seems so natural though. I do still need to eq them though and that may help. Very happy with mine none the less.
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post #37 of 51 Old 07-24-2012, 01:33 PM
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Well then I hate you too Keager tongue.gif

Mine must sound like boomy poop compared to yours rolleyes.gif
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post #38 of 51 Old 07-27-2012, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have four 18" subwoofers in a IB config and you reaction isn't "HOLY SH*T!" when watching the The Hulk and Abomination run at each other, something is wrong.

Mine are in-floor, so the soundwave below helps the soundwave above move things (an ideal situation for the tactile couch-moving I'm talking about) but you shoud feel
a LOT no matter what in that scene with your setup.

You have THIS and it doesn't rock the LFE?!?:

6968559307_265244519a_b.jpg

Have you used a 9 volt battery to check your sub movement? Mine shown above actually had black as positive and red as negative. Its the way FiCar does it, I guess.
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post #39 of 51 Old 07-28-2012, 03:18 PM
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Correct to all of the above and I just did the 9 volt test, red to positive and black to negative and my cones move outward toward the listener, I'm guessing this is correct?

Now don't get me wrong, I CAN hear and feel the bass, especially in the HULK fight scenes but I'm not understanding what this ULF craze is all about! And it definitely didn't make me say HOY SH!T! It sounds good I must say, and I still need to tame that 60hz peak which is causing my boomy muddy bass but not too impressed yet, maybe people get way too excited and exaggerate a bit much?

Btw, what are you comparing this setup to that makes you say OMG, WOW, etc?
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post #40 of 51 Old 07-28-2012, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

Correct to all of the above and I just did the 9 volt test, red to positive and black to negative and my cones move outward toward the listener, I'm guessing this is correct?
Now don't get me wrong, I CAN hear and feel the bass, especially in the HULK fight scenes but I'm not understanding what this ULF craze is all about! And it definitely didn't make me say HOY SH!T! It sounds good I must say, and I still need to tame that 60hz peak which is causing my boomy muddy bass but not too impressed yet, maybe people get way too excited and exaggerate a bit much?
Btw, what are you comparing this setup to that makes you say OMG, WOW, etc?

Every subwoofer/bass shaker/IMAX theater I've ever been in. JL Audio Gothams (plural), Danly DTS-10, etc.

I don't know about other's, but I'm not exaggerating. Everyone who has witnessed my room at reference level has been blown away. There are no shades of grey here. It's "OMG. WOW. I'll take that over 3D any day!"

You need to calibrate and play things at reference. What are you planning on using to calibrate? I used Audyssey XT32, which worked very well. Of course I have placed my subwoofers for minimum room nulls and peaks.
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post #41 of 51 Old 07-29-2012, 02:58 AM
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So you're teling me that I must play at reference? That's a bit out there, I'm not playing at reference, I will just up the bass a bit if need be in order to feel this ULF stuff without bleeding my ears with my highs.

I am using a BFD for the subs and Audyssey for the rest, well, I know Audyssey will calibrate for the subs as well but for sub only tuning, the BFD will take care of that. Did you have to do any tweaking with your BFD, if you are using one of course.
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post #42 of 51 Old 01-18-2013, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital_Chris View Post

So you're teling me that I must play at reference? That's a bit out there, I'm not playing at reference, I will just up the bass a bit if need be in order to feel this ULF stuff without bleeding my ears with my highs.

I am using a BFD for the subs and Audyssey for the rest, well, I know Audyssey will calibrate for the subs as well but for sub only tuning, the BFD will take care of that. Did you have to do any tweaking with your BFD, if you are using one of course.

Digital, I know this is an bit of an older thread and hopefully you have got your I.B. working the way you want and you are happy. If not... there is one thing that it seems no one has touched on yet. It has to do with what amplifier you are running your subs off of. Many people use pro audio type amplifiers to get the power and overhead needed for these set ups. The drawback to that is some of these very powerful and capable amps have build in subsonic or infrasonic filters. Behringer EuroPower series for example. Point being, if you have an amplifier with a subsonic filter, you will be missing that true deep extension. They roll off pretty quick, usually 24db/octave and are centered at 30hz or, even worse 50hz.

Just a thought. I think i read you had some plots of the FR that showed good response down pretty low, so maybe this isn't the reason your dilemma, but certainly something worth verifying!
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post #43 of 51 Old 01-21-2013, 12:02 AM
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Hey Micro, I am using a Behringer EP4000 to drive the IB's, I heard they have a 10hz filter maybe? I just can't play at reference if that's what it takes, VERY uncomfortable.
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post #44 of 51 Old 01-24-2013, 07:41 PM
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From what I can find, you need to make sure the switches in the back are all set correctly. 3 and 8 are filters, switching them to the right deactivates them. If there is a non-switchable filter at 10hz, I don't think that would cause much of an issue. Most all the I.B. setups are losing their oomph by that point. This has some more info on the Behringer setup switches. It's confusing as some say Behringer the functions are mixed up.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-amps-high-pass-filters/22824-behringer-ep-4000-mode-switches-2.html
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post #45 of 51 Old 01-24-2013, 08:21 PM
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Chris, I'm pretty sure the Berry isn't your problem. It does have a HPF option, but its defeatable. As long as the HPF is turned off, the amp won't limit you until VERY low frequencies. I'm using one to drive a setup smaller than yours, and it gets me flat FR down to 9Hz. Even there I don't think the amp is limiting me.

Your listening level can have a huge effect on the impact of ULF. First, do you have Dynamic EQ, and is it enabled? It attempts to bring the bass up to compensate for not listening at reference. Even with that, I have to listen around -10dB from reference to really start feeling the ULF. If you don't want to listen at that level (or can't due to equipment limitations), then it's time to start EQing in a house curve.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #46 of 51 Old 02-08-2013, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Chris, I'm pretty sure the Berry isn't your problem. It does have a HPF option, but its defeatable. As long as the HPF is turned off, the amp won't limit you until VERY low frequencies. I'm using one to drive a setup smaller than yours, and it gets me flat FR down to 9Hz. Even there I don't think the amp is limiting me.

Your listening level can have a huge effect on the impact of ULF. First, do you have Dynamic EQ, and is it enabled? It attempts to bring the bass up to compensate for not listening at reference. Even with that, I have to listen around -10dB from reference to really start feeling the ULF. If you don't want to listen at that level (or can't due to equipment limitations), then it's time to start EQing in a house curve.

This. With acoustic treatments, I can now turn up the volume within a few decibels of reference now, and it has really enhanced the LFE experience.
Also, getting used to the clean IB sound has helped.
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post #47 of 51 Old 09-09-2013, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

This. With acoustic treatments, I can now turn up the volume within a few decibels of reference now, and it has really enhanced the LFE experience.
Also, getting used to the clean IB sound has helped.

What treatment did you add if you don't mind me asking? I am just starting to add bass traps in corners in addition to my echo absorbing panels on the walls. I'm considering an IB built, but want to get the room treating more first.

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post #48 of 51 Old 09-09-2013, 02:41 PM
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Does anyone have compression or high level frequency response graphs? 100 dBs sweep would be awesome.
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post #49 of 51 Old 09-09-2013, 02:47 PM
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Very cool. Good thing you're happy with the speaker placement. wink.gif
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post #50 of 51 Old 09-13-2013, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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For room treatment, I'm using rigid fiberglass panels (look up HVAC supply warehouses in your area, they are usually in industrial parks) wrapped in cloth. I used cloth that is the same color as the walls and ceilings... blends in and looks good, IMHO.



I'm using 2" thick on the side walls, and 4" thick on the ceiling and rear walls.

HOWEVER. Even this decent level of frequency control does NOTHING for subwoofer frequencies. (below 80hz)
DO NOT let lack of "bass traps" stop you from putting in the subwoofer you desire. Subwoofer placement matters FAR FAR FAR more than any room treatment when it comes to low frequencies.
The kind of room treatments needed to control subwoofer frequencies are much too complicated and expensive for most home theaters.... don't worry about it.

Use some smaller sub(s) and learn how to measure frequency response in-room.
That's what I did. Really smoothed out room response with good placement, then used Audyessy to help it out some more.
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post #51 of 51 Old 09-14-2013, 02:53 PM
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You're absolutely right, placement is very important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

Even this decent level of frequency control does NOTHING for subwoofer frequencies. (below 80hz)

While I would agree your room's treatment may not affect subwoofer frequencies that much, it can be done. It's all about location, proximity from the boundary, not just panel thickness. If you wanted to merely concentrate on below 80hz damping/smoothing etc, that could be executed with your existing panels, merely re-located straddling corners, spaced off the boundaries significantly more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post

The kind of room treatments needed to control subwoofer frequencies are much too complicated and expensive for most home theaters.... don't worry about it.

I strongly disagree, and in my opinion it's not complicated at all. Expense is relative, but solid results well into the sub 80hz range can be easily achieved with very modest amount of expense. Like you said, HVAC supply houses, namely SPI, are great sources of rigid insulation. Or Safe-N-Sound or the cheap fluffy stuff.

If one is utilizing rigid type fiberglass panels, they need to be spaced off the boundary, ideally straddling the corners. Any time you space the panel off the boundary, the affected frequency range lowers.

The fluffy fiberglass insulation can be implemented "superchunk" style, for superb bass trapping characteristics, for very modest amount of expense. Also, Rock-wool type products are a nice middle of the road wrt density, quite effective.

The thicker the panel, the less dense the material needs to be for ideal effectiveness. The 4" rigid is ideal for bass trapping that's spaced off the boundary. A great rule of thumb would be 4" for rigid 703 or equivalent, otherwise move up to 6-9" of Safe-N-Sound Rockwool, if you can go even thicker go with the fluffy stuff. With fluffy, I prefer EcoTouch.

Believe me, one can affect down into the subwoofer range (even with 4" thick panels properly deployed), with benefits both in lessening modal influence and FR smoothing, and also a nice tightening of LF decay times and increased bass delineation and detail.

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