DIY sub ... Just as expensive as buying new! - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 12:07 PM
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"The main importance to me is to spend time and make damned sure I have a design that will work properly with the components I plan on using..."

sounds like you might get a greater benefit out of investing in a little measuring gear. if you put the best sub in a room with a nice big suckout, you will end up with a nice big suckout.

for bass, you really have to think about the room and the sub as forming a system. that system might be better for you with four little 10" cabs in each corner, than some sort of ultimate build placed in the wrong position.

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post #32 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 12:09 PM
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"A sealed sub will give a tighter bass response"

myth.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #33 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 12:16 PM
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OP, as someone else pointed out, you're really buliding a kit from pieces, it's not quite "DIY", especially considering you're purchasing the most expensive piece, and the source of the largest potential cost saving, pre-built.


FWIW, I'm doing dual IST Online XMass 18's in 24" sonotubes powered by a Behringer EP2500.
I estimate it'll cost me around $700 after everything's said and done... and I'm quite sure nothing commericla under $1000 will be able to beat it.
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post #34 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 12:29 PM
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FS, at the bottom end of the market price wise for decent performance is not where most of us here are coming from. I've been telling people on forums for 15 years that the best value for a speaker (not sub) is second hand, not DIY. There is a threshold that once crossed, DIY becomes far better value. You can't beat volume manufacturer economies of scale as a DIYer; I thought that would be obvious.

When you want performance, such as being able to play at reference levels, the off the shelf units are generally much more expensive than what you can make yourself. What would a commercial design of equivalent performance to a dual LMS5400 cost? there are JLs in this league at 5 figures - with some good shopping I could do it for 40% of that (in the US) and probably even better here (Australia) because of importer/dealer gouging.

Similarly for mains, where can you get a commercial controlled directivity speaker for anything like what you could build a 3/4Pi or a SEOS for?

the other thing you'll find here is a much higher level of technical knowledge, and actual measurement of devices, such as Ricci and Illkas sub testing, rather than someone merely saying 'this is good'. Add to that the far more common here room measurement, multi subbing, controlled use of EQ (rather than merely automatic such as Audessey etc), real amplifiers etc, and DIY thoroughly bitchslaps commercial above a fairly modest threshold.

Plus there is the enjoyment of the build, the pleasure in saying 'I did that' and most of all the learning, rather than mere consumption, in the DIY community vs the audio proletariat.
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post #35 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flt Simulation View Post

Brad ... I get asked why I use front and rear speakers for 2-channel music often.

Well, I did a A - A/B speaker test. Listen to just the fronts, and then switch to both fronts and rears ... To me, the music just sounds more "spacious" and "open" (for lack of better words) than when listening to music comeing from just in front of you.

Here is my audio system in the Philippines ... Just a moderate system. Nothing real special at all, but the sound is great! Looking closely, you can see both the front and rear Mission (UK) speakers in the photo. Well, you can see one of the rear speakers anyway. The rears are mounted on 30" speaker stands.


Infinite baffle might suit your fancy..... If you can find somewhere to hide them that is..... Since your output requirements are relatively modest one or two 15s would suffice IMO and forget about making the box all together.

I've never heard anyone complain about the SQ of infinite baffle, if you can work out placement that is.....

Don't waste time reading signatures.....
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post #36 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Step it up a notch or two and you'll see that DIY is the way to go for high end performance for the dollar.

Definitely. I have $1500 into my sub system including the $500 amp, and I'm at a level of LFE overload I didn't know existed three years ago. Don't want to think about what it would have cost me to do 120dB+ down to 15Hz with commercial stuff.
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post #37 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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A9X ... Well, your way over my head when it comes to 3/4Pi, SEOS, Ricci and Illkas. To be honest, I have never even heard of this before, so I don't have a clue what your talking about.

I am not a audiophile, and I would not even know what something "reference" was even supposed to sound like. I guess that means it's real good.

Anyways, I was just looking at some various subs in the $500 range and thought to myself ... Hey, maybe I can buy the same basic parts and save some money by putting it together by myself. Then I started to look at what the separate components would cost, and I came to the realization that I wouldn't be saving any money at all ... and when I did finish my little "Put it Together Yourself" project, it might not even sound as good as a store-bought subwoofer.

I know realize that most of you folks here in this forum are into this more than just gluing some wood cabinets together to both save money and have something to do with a little of your spare time ... Many of you are into this whole DIY thing very seriously, scientifically and spending big big bucks on your audio components ... Like I said ... Way over my head

Oh well ... I am still planning on buiding a sub cabinet myself, and buying the separate components to put into it someday. No, I won't have any fancy scientific test equipment to test it with, and I don't think there will be any mathematics involved with my design, but I will search enough on the internet to find out the correct box size to put my speaker driver into anyway ... Will it sound ok? ... As long as I'm happy, that's all that counts.
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post #38 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 01:21 PM
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people here will be glad to help you find the right sized box for what you want it to do. Since it is purely for music listening, you dont need to worry about the sub 20hz content, so you could have a nicely tuned ported box that would play quite well to 25-30hz and really sound awesome. Just give us the largest size you are willing to build to, and we can suggest some drivers, box types, and even model some of that for you (I cant do the modelling, but some of these guys can populate that info super fast).

With that said, the "max sized" box more than likely wont be required, just a spec to allow us not to go overkill

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post #39 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flt Simulation View Post

I am not a audiophile, and I would not even know what something "reference" was even supposed to sound like. I guess that means it's real good.

Not necessarily, just real loud. I take it back, real loud IS real good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flt Simulation View Post

Oh well ... I am still planning on buiding a sub cabinet myself, and buying the separate components to put into it someday. No, I won't have any fancy scientific test equipment to test it with, and I don't think there will be any mathematics involved with my design, but I will search enough on the internet to find out the correct box size to put my speaker driver into anyway ... Will it sound ok? ... As long as I'm happy, that's all that counts.

Nothing wrong with copying someone else's proven design and just implementing it.
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post #40 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 01:57 PM
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"A9X ... Well, your way over my head when it comes to 3/4Pi, SEOS, Ricci and Illkas. To be honest, I have never even heard of this before, so I don't have a clue what your talking about."

3pi and 4pi are speakers designed by wayne parham in the spirit of some of the better jbl installation speakers.
seos is a waveguide that folks developed around here and offers an improvement over the above.
ricci and illka are two guys who have spent a ton of time measuring subs and posted their results online. they are kind of like a 'consumer reports' for subs, but unlike consumer reports, they actually have an idea of what they are doing. :-)

some of illka's measurements can be found here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...rer-model.html

some of ricci's, here:
http://www.data-bass.com/home

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post #41 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


... people here will be glad to help you find the right sized box for what you want it to do.

Just give us the largest size you are willing to build to, and we can suggest some drivers, box types, and even model some of that for you (I cant do the modelling, but some of these guys can populate that info super fast).

With that said, the "max sized" box more than likely wont be required, just a spec to allow us not to go overkill

Thank's a bunch for the offer. I will keep that in mind before I purchase anything.


Brad ... Your right ... Copying a proven design is certinly better than aimlessly buying stuff and [hoping] it all works out in the end.

It works the same way with race car parts too. We call that "synergy" .. separate components working together harmoniously.
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post #42 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Disagreed

Having heard a pair of f20 subs and a whole lot of commercial and I.D. Sub offerings there is no way the f20 is worth anywhere near 2k.

it's safe to say that I'll never know the difference.
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post #43 of 43 Old 04-30-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Flt Simulation View Post


Don't seem to be much of a bargain (or a good idea) to me anymore.

It isn't when you set your sights so low. At that price point you can't compete with manufacturers as far as materials costs are concerned. DIY isn't about building entry or even mid-level speakers for less than you can buy them for. DIY is about building speakers that will compete against the highest priced commercial offerings at prices you can afford. For the same $500 you can build something it would cost you at least $2000 in a store.

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