DIY Dayton 15" HF Sealed - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

I am also thinking about going with 15" Titanic MK3 drivers in two 3cu ft sealed cabs for 2600cu ft room. I can always eq the sub for 20hz performance. Looks like Titanic can take 1100 watts at 4ohms from Crown XLS1000 better than HF or HO drivers.


That would be a badass setup! The HF and HO's are great subs for the money but the titanic is on another level.

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post #32 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 03:24 PM
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I've been doing some research and it seems that some sources say that the titanic is boomier than the HF drivers. Is this true? I don't need insane SPLs. I need good tight bass that goes down low.
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post #33 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wywern209 View Post

I've been doing some research and it seems that some sources say that the titanic is boomier than the HF drivers. Is this true?

That's why I asked those questions about the Titanic vs the HF's.
I was under the impression that the HF's had much better sound quality.
Since I will be running 4 in a sealed 2600cu/ft room I think I will still stick with the HF's. I don't think they will ever hit their limits.
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post #34 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wywern209 View Post

I've been doing some research and it seems that some sources say that the titanic is boomier than the HF drivers. Is this true? I don't need insane SPLs. I need good tight bass that goes down low.

IMO thats completely untrue but why don't you model both drivers and compare them. There are tons of people that think big subs are "slow" and all sorts of misinformation. Box size, the persons room, power etc all play a big part. With a proper box size and proper wattage, theres no way the titanic will sound "boomy" I'm afraid, unless they made a crappy box or had some other problems with their systems.
But take info for what it is. I've had both in the same box, in the same room, with the same power AND know what I'm doing. These 2 subs were my 28 and 29'th sub I've built.

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post #35 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crabra View Post

That's why I asked those questions about the Titanic vs the HF's.
I was under the impression that the HF's had much better sound quality.
Since I will be running 4 in a sealed 2600cu/ft room I think I will still stick with the HF's. I don't think they will ever hit their limits.

As long as you get 300 watt amps, you will be golden.

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post #36 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

IMO thats completely untrue but why don't you model both drivers and compare them. There are tons of people that think big subs are "slow" and all sorts of misinformation. Box size, the persons room, power etc all play a big part. With a proper box size and proper wattage, theres no way the titanic will sound "boomy" I'm afraid, unless they made a crappy box or had some other problems with their systems.
But take info for what it is. I've had both in the same box, in the same room, with the same power AND know what I'm doing. These 2 subs were my 28 and 29'th sub I've built.

I see. i just saw a bunch of info to the contrary. I don't know how to model things just yet as i am unfamiliar with the different math involved with things like qtc and vas and stuff. how would the 15" titanic MKIII model in the dan marx box?
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post #37 of 82 Old 05-02-2012, 09:53 PM
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In my opinion the Dayton HF can do almost as good as the titanic down low with eq. Id take SQ over spl any day but thats just me. I saw the distortion graphs of the titanic somewhere and they were a little high according to the people in the thread, but then again I have never herd it. I have 2 hfs w 2 500w o audio amps . I havent had the chance to build them because I am finishing my in wall wiring, projector mount, projector screen and some wood work of the entertainment area + my htpc. I have never had a subwoofer before so I am sure that ill be more than happy with 2 15" subs .

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post #38 of 82 Old 05-03-2012, 07:57 PM
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I've done quite a bit of research and I'm going to go with the HF. With a 5 cf box it should do fine and avoid the oil canning effect. I'm probably going to go with a bash 300w amp from parts express.
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post #39 of 82 Old 05-03-2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by deathinc View Post

In my opinion the Dayton HF can do almost as good as the titanic down low with eq. Id take SQ over spl any day but thats just me. I saw the distortion graphs of the titanic somewhere and they were a little high according to the people in the thread, but then again I have never herd it..

So how on earth can you say the SQ is better if you've never heard it? If you guys just google Titanic mkiii, there are TONS on threads of people loving the driver. You can find negative things about anything. You have to look at stuff as a whole.

To be honest, I wish the shiva, tempest or SDX were still around. I'd take any of those offerings over anything available right now in a 15" (other than maybe a lms-r)

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post #40 of 82 Old 05-03-2012, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

So how on earth can you say the SQ is better if you've never heard it? If you guys just google Titanic mkiii, there are TONS on threads of people loving the driver. You can find negative things about anything. You have to look at stuff as a whole.

To be honest, I wish the shiva, tempest or SDX were still around. I'd take any of those offerings over anything available right now in a 15" (other than maybe a lms-r)

I said.....people say in forums, I then when on saying that I have never herd it . What I was implying was that I cannot confirm not deny. However U doubt it sounds better since the HF is geard to top notch SQ and the titanic to SPL.

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post #41 of 82 Old 05-04-2012, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by deathinc View Post

I said.....people say in forums, I then when on saying that I have never herd it . What I was implying was that I cannot confirm not deny. However U doubt it sounds better since the HF is geard to top notch SQ and the titanic to SPL.

Man, I hope you guys don't seriously believe that.

Explain to me what makes the HF have better SQ than the titanic then and "guys in forums" don't count. Some actual proof that it sounds better.

You have some serious misinformation about drivers.

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post #42 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 02:06 PM
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Hey guys, what kind of tools are you guys using to cut the mdf? i know i need a router and/or a jigsaw but are there any recommendations for what works well for large scale projects like a subwoofer cabinet build?
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post #43 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 02:32 PM
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A table saw is ideal, but you can use a circular saw with a home made guide to easily break down large sheets of wood.



I recommend supporting, and clamping another piece of wood on the outside of the saw to prevent movement to consistently get 90 degree cuts.


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post #44 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 02:59 PM
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"Explain to me what makes the HF have better SQ than the titanic..."

one argument would go that transient response is based on le/re.

the triple shorting rings in the hf gives it a relatively low value of 0.30.

the single ring in the titanic gives it a relatively high value of 0.82.

lower le/re tends to correlate with a more linear le/re too.

at least that is how one argument would go.

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post #45 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 03:07 PM
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I have the HF 15" in my car. SQ is excellent.

With that said, it has nowhere near the punch or sq of my submersive... which it shouldn't.

I haven't heard the Titanic to compare, but the HF is no slouch. I would compare an HF build as the DIY answer to the BIC PL-200 at a slightly higher price with much better SQ and deeper extension.
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post #46 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 03:21 PM
 
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Let me preface by saying I don't care for 15" in a sub for the average home living room/HT space, just totally unnecessary IMHO. The drivers I will speak of are the 12" versions of all the drivers discussed. Now, having said that:

Having heard BOTH the HF & Titanic, I agree w/deathinc. The HF/HO, while not the same amount of output, DO sound noticebly better for clarity & control when compared with the Titanic. This is the reason I bought my first HF instead of the Titanic. And still have it. The HO (which I also purchased), certainly is no slouch either and why I bought one also.

And as for "proof" , this is the internet, anyone can say anything and come off sounding knowledgeable. However, in my case, I literally live less than 30 minutes from Parts Express in Ohio and am a frequent 'visitor' there. So I have an idea of just how their drivers sound.

Now, for the horrible advice you gave for going with a 300 watt amp instead of a 500 watt amp because a 500 watt amp wouldn't be turned up past 1/2 way, is just ludicrous. I am running 500 watt plate amp with the HF (and HO as well) and it is absolutely perfect. Ample headroom for those times when we want the audio cranked up, and subtle, but noticeable at 'normal' and lower volumes. The HF just purrs thru it and we couldn't be happier.

The Titanic has a well deserved reputation, this is not arguable. For sheer output, I too would recommend the Titanic. But for actual SQ, regardless of the output, I'll stick to (and highly recommend) the HF or the HO.
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post #47 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 04:03 PM
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I own four Dayton RSS390HF subs that I used to use in an infinite baffle. They are now going to be used in my new theater in sealed boxes. They are incredible drivers for the money; some of the lowest distortion bass you can imagine.

You can read about Monte Kay's insane woofer system here. He is the one that convinced me to go with the RSS390HF's after doing distortion measurements on them:

http://www.mfk-projects.com/theatre_woofer.htm
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post #48 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

A table saw is ideal, but you can use a circular saw with a home made guide to easily break down large sheets of wood.



I recommend supporting, and clamping another piece of wood on the outside of the saw to prevent movement to consistently get 90 degree cuts.

I'm mainly asking about cutting circles for the baffle and such.
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post #49 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wywern209 View Post

I'm mainly asking about cutting circles for the baffle and such.

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I'm mainly asking about cutting circles for the baffle and such.

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards...TOKEN=12317130
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post #51 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Let me preface by saying I don't care for 15" in a sub for the average home living room/HT space, just totally unnecessary IMHO. The drivers I will speak of are the 12" versions of all the drivers discussed. Now, having said that:

Having heard BOTH the HF & Titanic, I agree w/deathinc. The HF/HO, while not the same amount of output, DO sound noticebly better for clarity & control when compared with the Titanic. This is the reason I bought my first HF instead of the Titanic. And still have it. The HO (which I also purchased), certainly is no slouch either and why I bought one also.

And as for "proof" , this is the internet, anyone can say anything and come off sounding knowledgeable. However, in my case, I literally live less than 30 minutes from Parts Express in Ohio and am a frequent 'visitor' there. So I have an idea of just how their drivers sound.

Now, for the horrible advice you gave for going with a 300 watt amp instead of a 500 watt amp because a 500 watt amp wouldn't be turned up past 1/2 way, is just ludicrous. I am running 500 watt plate amp with the HF (and HO as well) and it is absolutely perfect. Ample headroom for those times when we want the audio cranked up, and subtle, but noticeable at 'normal' and lower volumes. The HF just purrs thru it and we couldn't be happier.

The Titanic has a well deserved reputation, this is not arguable. For sheer output, I too would recommend the Titanic. But for actual SQ, regardless of the output, I'll stick to (and highly recommend) the HF or the HO.

It's funny because you have one, so of course you'll defend it to the end, not that theres anything wrong with that, I'm a Mach 5 fan boy also.
You being anywhere near PE makes no difference because as you said, this is the internet and you're probably full of it anyways right?
I have 2 HO's sitting in boxes in my garage. They ARE great drivers but just don't have the steam IMO to be in a HT.
My advise sticks, save the money and go with the 300 watt amps and never worry about damaging the driver. The OP seemed to be on a tight budget and that would save him money, which was the point of the suggestion in the first place.

Pretty much after I read you don't care for a in 15 in driver for HT, I read the rest of your post with a in full bloom lol

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post #52 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wywern209 View Post

Hey guys, what kind of tools are you guys using to cut the mdf? i know i need a router and/or a jigsaw but are there any recommendations for what works well for large scale projects like a subwoofer cabinet build?

The easiest way to make circles is to get a circle jig or just take a scrap piece of mdf say 4" wide by 10" long. Attach one side to your router's base. Measure half of your circle you are planning on cutting from your bit's edge to your desired measurments, drill a small hole in your scrap piece at your measurment. Find the middle of the hole you want to cut on your box, put a screw through your router piece's hole you drilled and the middle and let it rip. It takes less than 5 minutes to setup and you can just keep that piece of wood for future holes. It's super simple.

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post #53 of 82 Old 05-06-2012, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Explain to me what makes the HF have better SQ than the titanic..."

one argument would go that transient response is based on le/re.

the triple shorting rings in the hf gives it a relatively low value of 0.30.

the single ring in the titanic gives it a relatively high value of 0.82.

lower le/re tends to correlate with a more linear le/re too.

at least that is how one argument would go.

ya and put both those in their optimal sized boxes and tell me how much better one sounds that the other. I've built 3 boxes for the HO, 2 for the HF's and 2 for the titanics and had the HO's and titanic's in the same room, with the same amp, in the same box, in the exact same position and had 5 people comparing as like I said, they are a gift and I wanted the best SQ and output possible between the 2. They difference is subtle at any volume not beging to take each driver to their limits. The HO's were starting to make mechanical noises with 1/2 on the 500 watt amp playing at well below reference in their 3CF boxes. Both drivers played within their limits were great, the titanic just offered more as far as HT is concerned.
Granted that is not an idea size for the Titanic either. They played best in the 5 CF box I had in my garage.

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post #54 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

The HO's were starting to make mechanical noises with 1/2 on the 500 watt amp playing at well below reference in their 3CF boxes. Both drivers played within their limits were great, the titanic just offered more as far as HT is concerned.

This seems to be the best take away. I think N8DOGG's point is for HT displacement wins and the HO/HF loses out to the Titanic in displacement especially if they have mechanical noise to boot.


Mazeroth I just quickly skimmed the attached link about the HF distortion numbers. I hope to god it has low distortion results at 18hz with 24 drivers at a mere 103db. Christ one UXL has nearly those numbers! The real question is how does one HF do at 18hz with distortion and output
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post #55 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 02:42 PM
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This seems to be the best take away. I think N8DOGG's point is for HT displacement wins and the HO/HF loses out to the Titanic in displacement especially if they have mechanical noise to boot.

Pretty much but also that someone thinking the HO/HF is going to have way better SQ, is silly as long as they are in their proper enclosures. I would really only compare the 2 if the titanic was on sale to begin with. Solen.ca has them for $216 CDN, which is a pretty good deal vs the $179 for the HO.

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post #56 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Pretty much but also that someone thinking the HO/HF is going to have way better SQ, is silly as long as they are in their proper enclosures. I would really only compare the 2 if the titanic was on sale to begin with. Solen.ca has them for $216 CDN, which is a pretty good deal vs the $179 for the HO.

With the DVC385 on sale for $130 It's hard to consider any of them unless box size is a major factor (HO).


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post #57 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 02:52 PM
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hey guys, so to settle this once and for all, i modeled the titanic vs hf in winisd and found that at most, there is just a 1 db difference when only 1 W is fed to ether sub in a 100L enclosure.the red is titanic, the green the hf.
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post #58 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by wywern209 View Post

hey guys, so to settle this once and for all, i modeled the titanic vs hf in winisd and found that at most, there is just a 1 db difference when only 1 W is fed to ether sub in a 100L enclosure.the red is titanic, the green the hf.

Ok it's good to see your figuring out how to use winisd but you need much more info. Here you can see that the HO hits xmax at 32hz with 500 watts in a 3CF box and the titanic is will hit xmax a 10HZ with 500 watts in it's 5 cf box and never come even close in a 3CF box. So the titanic could run much more power and have room to EQ. the SPL is good for both with the titanic about 3dB's higher average throughout. And thats with only 500 watts. Thus turning down the 500 watt amp to around half gain will result in a safe driver and should avoid over excursion, though it's still quite possible.




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post #59 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

ya and put both those in their optimal sized boxes and tell me how much better one sounds that the other. I've built 3 boxes for the HO, 2 for the HF's and 2 for the titanics and had the HO's and titanic's in the same room, with the same amp, in the same box, in the exact same position and had 5 people comparing as like I said, they are a gift and I wanted the best SQ and output possible between the 2. They difference is subtle at any volume not beging to take each driver to their limits. The HO's were starting to make mechanical noises with 1/2 on the 500 watt amp playing at well below reference in their 3CF boxes. Both drivers played within their limits were great, the titanic just offered more as far as HT is concerned.
Granted that is not an idea size for the Titanic either. They played best in the 5 CF box I had in my garage.

Funny. I had/have the HO, HF & Titanic 15s here and playing with them in a small sealed box (<60L), as well as a few vented boxes, I came to the opposite conclusion. I suspect large 3 cu.ft. sealed box for the HO left it flopping around too much below 20Hz and much of what you preferred about the Titanic was that the suspension locks up hard due to the smaller diameter spider and keeps from making quite as offensive a noise when pushed hard past its limits (it is more tolerant to abuse). That said, the RS15 HO is audibly and measurably cleaner than the Titanic, with a suspension that sounds better to a higher useful excursion. I'd argue the useful excursion is actually very close between the two, although they will need different EQ to compare fairly in the similar size box.

Models are fairly representative past at least 1/2 Xmax, but what happens as you approach and go past Xmax takes some educated guessing and understanding of how a particular driver behaves at its limits, and even then you can get some surprises. At some point someone has to test it and push it to the stops as Ricci has in his various videos and descriptions of raw drivers at data-bass.

Just my 2c to take or leave.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #60 of 82 Old 05-07-2012, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Just an update I bought the 300W bash amp and the Dayton 15" HF driver. I have the boards cut into squares and plan to cut the holes for the driver and bracing and start gluing it all together on Friday.
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