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post #1 of 32 Old 05-03-2012, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,
My name is mike. This is my first post, and first time on the AVS forums.
I'll just get right down to it. my home theater system lacks hi fidelity. it's all store bought. the front channles are BIC America. My center is a b&w. The powered sub is a jamo and the rear surrounds are some small sony things.

I have been collecting parts to do a over haul, and build it all my self.
I am starting with the powered sub. I have a ultratech blue monster. going to power it with a QSC RMX 2450 bridged. thats in the mail as we speak!
The blue monster is 2000 watts RMS!!!!!!
this is the blue monster and the little thing is the woffer from the jamo sub




this week i will be building the box. looking to go ported. going to tune to about 20 Hrz
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post #2 of 32 Old 05-03-2012, 06:37 PM
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Corporations will usually be inferior because they are in it for only one reason, to maximize profit; which means making it for as cheap as possible, and selling lots of them at a much higher price.

A $10,000 dollar speaker probably has a few hundred dollars worth of components in it, wrapped in a pretty bow of a shell.

The only time they aren't inferior is in the more elaborate/custom manufacturing processes and tooling. You and I won't be DIYing at home an HDMI 1.5 DAC anytime soon etc...
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post #3 of 32 Old 05-03-2012, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Corporations will usually be inferior because they are in it for only one reason, to maximize profit; which means making it for as cheap as possible, and selling lots of them at a much higher price.

A $10,000 dollar speaker probably has a few hundred dollars worth of components in it, wrapped in a pretty bow of a shell.

The only time they aren't inferior is in the more elaborate/custom manufacturing processes and tooling. You and I won't be DIYing at home an HDMI 1.5 DAC anytime soon etc...

hmm I have no idea what your point is.
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post #4 of 32 Old 05-03-2012, 07:20 PM
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I think he's saying you're going to be happy you went DIY
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post #5 of 32 Old 05-03-2012, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I think he's saying you're going to be happy you went DIY

all i have to say is word to that. just tired of 100 watts here and there.
my yamaha amp is like 500 watts / 5 channels. BORING
so i picked up a Marantz sr5200, QSC RMX 2450, QSC MX1500A, and a QSC GX3. total rms power 4600 watts.
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post #6 of 32 Old 05-03-2012, 09:22 PM
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Looks like you're off to a good start. You may need to add another circuit breaker or two if you get problems with lights dimming and especially if you ever trip a breaker. As for your sub, did you say you bought one, or four? ;-)

Next up, room treatments, mains, surrounds, and anything else you can think of. Then upgrading what you already have. It's an endless cycle.

YID DIY
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post #7 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Looks like you're off to a good start. You may need to add another circuit breaker or two if you get problems with lights dimming and especially if you ever trip a breaker. As for your sub, did you say you bought one, or four? ;-)

Next up, room treatments, mains, surrounds, and anything else you can think of. Then upgrading what you already have. It's an endless cycle.

one of my in-laws is an electricain. I already spoke with him about that, and we have add larger wiring.

4??? man my house would brake in two and i might need a power sub station right next door!

i do have a question though. does having carpet or hard would flooring add or take away from the system? what can i do to combat those effects?
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post #8 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 06:20 AM
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Ug, bitten by the wattage bug.. That can fester up a rather unnecessary rash.

There's nothing wrong with using amplification as a tool to reach particular goals, though I believe you may be confusing the role that amplification power plays in a total system design. The need for enormous wattage generally stems from either a lack of room for box size or a requirement to fill a very large space with ample sound energy. Choosing a driver with very low efficiency characteristics, and then putting it in a very inefficient box, will create a requirement for very large amplification. Converting tons of electrical power to heat energy is not a "feature" or "selling point" for DIYers, it's simply another approach to achieve a desired result.

Regarding the carpet... Take a look at the way professional theatres do it... There is carpet on the floor, the walls, even the ceiling is usually set up as a surface with various angles and shapes embedded into it to keep major reflections to a minimum.

Regards,
Eric
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post #9 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post

all i have to say is word to that. just tired of 100 watts here and there.
my yamaha amp is like 500 watts / 5 channels. BORING
so i picked up a Marantz sr5200, QSC RMX 2450, QSC MX1500A, and a QSC GX3. total rms power 4600 watts.

4600 watts is a good start!! I went from a 5x100 watt avr to just ONE of my four sub channels is 4400 watts now Wattage and power means nothing if you dont incorporate it right. Do you plan on modelling the box you are building in WinISD or anything?

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #10 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 11:20 AM
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Welcome. Glad to hear you're jumping on the DIY wagon. It's a great hobby and can produce very good results.

Do you have any experience building speakers or woodworking in general? Building decent stuff takes a good amount of time, effort and tools. If you're just building one sub you can probably get away with a circular saw and a jig saw. If you're looking to build a full 5.1 (or greater) system, you probably want to invest in a better selection of tools.

Not trying to discourage - just want to make sure you know what're in for.

Best of luck,
Joe
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post #11 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post

...does having carpet or hard would flooring add or take away from the system? what can i do to combat those effects?

I always suggest reading Floyd Toole's book Sound Reproduction, rather than my trying to summarize his 40 years of acoustic research. It took him 500 pages...

The key bit is that an audio system has 2 components, the speakers and associated equipment to drive them, and the room containing them and the listener. No surprise then that Toole's subtitle is "Loudspeakers and Rooms." You can't get really good sound without addressing both.

This is a good forum to ask about subs, but when you get to the speakers, also ask in HTGuide's Mission Possible DIY forum and PE's Tech Talk. Lots more on speakers, and on more types of speakers than you'll get here.

Have fun,
Frank
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post #12 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post


this week i will be building the box. looking to go ported. going to tune to about 20 Hrz

That sub looks like a beast! Have you modeled the enclosure yet? Do you have a high pass filter to remove content below the tuning point?
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post #13 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 12:57 PM
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Which driver is that?
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post #14 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post

all i have to say is word to that. just tired of 100 watts here and there.
my yamaha amp is like 500 watts / 5 channels. BORING
so i picked up a Marantz sr5200, QSC RMX 2450, QSC MX1500A, and a QSC GX3. total rms power 4600 watts.

Good on you for going DIY, but one point I will make is that power, providing you have enough for the task, is pretty much irrelevant and in no way determines the quality of a product, or the sound quality it can produce. The numbers are impressive sounding, but may not produce impressive sound.
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post #15 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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wow great responce here!
this is my plan:
the gx 3 will power the front left and right towers cut off at 100Hrz
these are the mids and tweeters
the tweeters are dynaudio md330
the woofers are eclipse 6.75" drivers

i am going to use the mx1500A for the woofers in those cabinets. (bi-amp)
then use the rmx to power the subwoofer.

the blue monster has a very stiff suspention on it 2 spiders. you could I/B if you want. the coil is under hung 4" 8 layer dual 2 ohms. dc resistance is 1.6 per coil.
it only needs a 2 cubic foot box ported. i was thinking 6th order band pass.


As for building speaker box building. I worked in a car audio shop for 4 years. i did mdf boxes, fiberglass, plexiy glass. honestly that where all of the speakers are from.
I got all the wood working tools any one could ask for. the audio shop is right down the road. they let me use the wood shop when ever.

the back or surround speakers are going to be dynaudio 7" drivers and the md330 tweeter. i will keep the b&w center channel for now.

i say 4600 but i will never peak that. i just want to be able to push it evey now and then with out killing any thing.

to mdocod you can never have to much power buddy! amps run way cooler than one that was matched rms to rms of the speaker..
when i had my sq car audio set up i had 4 times the power on every thing. 145 db and you could here every thing. i even have a dash mount RTA. 6 audio control EQTS. only cross over in the car where what was in the amps. never popped a speaker
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post #16 of 32 Old 05-04-2012, 10:12 PM
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Do you have the T/S parameters for that sub? There's no way that 2 ft3 ported would work for a HT...

Do you have crossovers for those drivers? If you have crossovers that you would use in a car, that is not the same thing as a suitable crossover for putting the drivers in a box and placing them in a room.

If you're really looking for a high level sound system you need to slow down...

http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...-provendesigns
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post #17 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 07:30 AM
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Do two drivers per cab, sealed. 4 cu ft each, and get a MiniDSP to EQ them. Perfect ! Would that be an 8ohm load for two speakers per cab ? Choosing an amp will be a little tricky....
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post #18 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 03:31 PM
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Hi Mike,

The port alone would have to be larger than 2ft^3 in volume to tune a speaker with that much displacement low enough for HT use in a box that small. The "2ft^3 ported" box you have in mind is probably a typical car-sub-box alignment, tuned high, putting a very high peak in response somewhere around 50-70hz, and a crap ton of port noise that is muffled by a typical car trunk.... Completely useless for HT. I'd venture to guess that if you stay on the current path, your DIY system will turn out far worse than a HT-in-a-box system from walmart.

-----------

Hi kgveteran,

0.4 ft^3? Are you talking about the box for that subwoofer? Did you model it? Did you conform that it will be able to reach Xmax within thermal limits? This sounds like a really terrible design to me.

LT is not a replacement for every other consideration in box design, in fact, it serves more often to cause ignorant DIYers to build extraordinarily inefficient subs with very limited output.

Regards,
Eric
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post #19 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

0.4 ft^3? Are you talking about the box for that subwoofer? Did you model it? Did you conform that it will be able to reach Xmax within thermal limits? This sounds like a really terrible design to me.

LT is not a replacement for every other consideration in box design, in fact, it serves more often to cause ignorant DIYers to build extraordinarily inefficient subs with very limited output.

Regards,
Eric

Read what he posted again, and this time try to notice what number is actually typed there.
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post #20 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Read what he posted again, and this time try to notice what number is actually typed there.

And also point out where kgv mentioned LT.
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post #21 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Read what he posted again, and this time try to notice what number is actually typed there.

Yep, it appears I read the position of that period wrong. Or... that after my post, there was an edit made to "fix" the position of the period, either way, oops

Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

And also point out where kgv mentioned LT.

If it were a 0.4ft^3 box as I misinterpreted, it would be implied whether said or not.
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post #22 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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ok i am new to this and i dont want to mess it up. so lets start over then i have lots of power and a lot of drivers. what do i need to do next?

doing this in a car seems way easier then a house. i am open to ideas

i dont have a lot of money is the reason for the use of the car audio speakers.

i would like to make some really nice boxes for them, and i looking for some woofers
for the front cabinet
I like these woofers
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-120
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post #23 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

Yep, it appears I read the position of that period wrong. Or... that after my post, there was an edit made to "fix" the position of the period, either way, oops

No edits have been made.

OP -- follow Jay's link. That is a great start.

A few more...

http://zaphaudio.com/ - many popular designs.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=211558 - a compilation of designs, build threads, etc. The PE forums is very active with DIY talk/designs/builds.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=6 - This forum seems to have slowed down a bit over the last few years, but it is still a great resource for the new DIY entrant.

http://madisound.com/kits/ - A lot of Zaph Audio designs can be found here in kit form, among others.
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post #24 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post

ok i am new to this and i dont want to mess it up. so lets start over then i have lots of power and a lot of drivers. what do i need to do next?

doing this in a car seems way easier then a house. i am open to ideas

i dont have a lot of money is the reason for the use of the car audio speakers.

i would like to make some really nice boxes for them, and i looking for some woofers
for the front cabinet
I like these woofers
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-120

You're not going to be able to use all of those drivers with satisfactory results without having a proper crossover designed for them. Unless you know people who can measure and simulate crossovers, you might have to completely change plans... There are people like Paul Carmody who will hook you up, if you ship him a built speaker

http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...design-service

You could also try to sell all of those drivers and start fresh with designs like baniels pointed out.

For the sub, you need to get the thiele small parameters if you want a monster ported box. Without that your best bet is a mid sized 4-6ft3 sealed box with EQ to boost the low end. You can measure the subs response with your receivers mic and REW to see how much boost is needed.
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post #25 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 08:31 PM
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How big is your room ? Do you have any equipment to measure with ? You may want to concider working that into your budget if you can. There are some guys here that get real good results with out dishing $300.00 to PE for an OM system.....like i did, but anything is better than tuning by ear.
Im subscibing, looking forward to your build. KG
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post #26 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

How big is your room ? Do you have any equipment to measure with ? You may want to concider working that into your budget if you can. There are some guys here that get real good results with out dishing $300.00 to PE for an OM system.....like i did, but anything is better than tuning by ear.
Im subscibing, looking forward to your build. KG

kgveteran

my tv rom is 247"L X 165" w X 108" H
the room has a valted ceiling. it's late, so i will see how high the peak is tomarrow. I have an RTA. my yamaha amp has the ypao if that can do any thing for me
is an OM system an omnimic?

one of the things i am lost with is why the 2 cubic foot box not work in the house. it worked very well in the car. is that because i had so much power or just the size of the car being way less internal C/F valume?
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post #27 of 32 Old 05-05-2012, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike d263 View Post

is an OM system an omnimic?

Yes.

What mic do you use with your RTA?
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post #28 of 32 Old 05-06-2012, 02:19 AM
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"There are people like Paul Carmody who will hook you up [FOR FREE!], if you ship him a built speaker..."

nice one jay!

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #29 of 32 Old 05-06-2012, 05:06 AM
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It would be interesting to do a close mic of the sub, and then an inroom at the LP. You will get a little room gain depending on location. 2cubes is kinda small, that would require a little EQ to get a fairly low response.....

Always better to get the subs response somewhat flat before any auto EQ is used. While most auto EQ's like Audyssey and such are good and work wonders in our rooms, there's no fix for a null, only another sub in another location ect, ect, ect....but you're not there yet.

So, do a close mic to see that its doing what its suppose to be doing, then measure from your LP ( listening position ). Post your results if you can.
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post #30 of 32 Old 05-06-2012, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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ok i down loaded WinISD. i e mailed the guy i got the sub from for the thiele small parameters. just waiting on him.
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