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post #91 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Not yet, though I am very tempted. I am have never owned "pro audio" amps nor have I ever actively bi-amped my speakers. With the DSI amps and the JBL pro speakers, it seems like such a natural fit that I am very tempted
They are running off your AV at the moment I assume?

I wonder how many more DB powering one with a DSI amp vs using the same wattage and going through a crossover. My guess is you would be getting a tad advantage with the woofers driving the amp @4ohm s and the CD @8ohms . Using the crossover it would need to split that signal and you would be loosing output in the process.

That said could you actually hear a difference? I wonder.

This AV stuff is hard to quantify I think. Subs are easy as you add more subs..it gets louder.(more db) but with speakers if your going from one efficient speaker to another. My hears have a hard time telling if ones better than the other. It may be a tad bit cleaner when pushed harder on one vs the other but for normal listening do you notice a difference? Maybe going from something like my klipsch to the 4722 with those dual 15" you would notice it.

What did you have previously JTR'S?
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post #92 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
They are running off your AV at the moment I assume?

I wonder how many more DB powering one with a DSI amp vs using the same wattage and going through a crossover. My guess is you would be getting a tad advantage with the woofers driving the amp @4ohm s and the CD @8ohms . Using the crossover it would need to split that signal and you would be loosing output in the process.

That said could you actually hear a difference? I wonder.

This AV stuff is hard to quantify I think. Subs are easy as you add more subs..it gets louder.(more db) but with speakers if your going from one efficient speaker to another. My hears have a hard time telling if ones better than the other. It may be a tad bit cleaner when pushed harder on one vs the other but for normal listening do you notice a difference? Maybe going from something like my klipsch to the 4722 with those dual 15" you would notice it.

What did you have previously JTR'S?
That is exactly why I haven't done anything yet with the DSI amps. I am currently running them off a Parasound Halo A51 amplifier. I have been nothing but happy with the amplifier over the last couple of years so I would hate to trade out gear and have it all be for no to minimal gain.

And yes, I owned JTR 212 speakers previously..and Yorkville U215...and JTR T12 before those two. I am trying to settle down and just find a speaker that fits my needs and preferences. So far the JBLs are filling the role nicely but I admit my history does not lend itself to keep speakers very long.

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post #93 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
They are running off your AV at the moment I assume?

I wonder how many more DB powering one with a DSI amp vs using the same wattage and going through a crossover. My guess is you would be getting a tad advantage with the woofers driving the amp @4ohm s and the CD @8ohms . Using the crossover it would need to split that signal and you would be loosing output in the process.

That said could you actually hear a difference? I wonder.

This AV stuff is hard to quantify I think. Subs are easy as you add more subs..it gets louder.(more db) but with speakers if your going from one efficient speaker to another. My hears have a hard time telling if ones better than the other. It may be a tad bit cleaner when pushed harder on one vs the other but for normal listening do you notice a difference? Maybe going from something like my klipsch to the 4722 with those dual 15" you would notice it.

What did you have previously JTR'S?
It's more complicated than that.

First- the damping factor and the latency is improved on the active design because the signal does not need to go through a crossover and there is less resistance as a result- this also allows a more direct amplifier to driver connection and provides a better damping factor. This is particularly important on class D amps, since one of their weaknesses is usually in this area especially with passive speakers or speakers that have a changing impedance and full range signal. The active amps work a little better driving a single driver direct, than they do driving a system of passive. This is one of the inherent advantages of active set ups.

Second - With active you get a serious bonus when pushing them hard. Something to consider is if one of the amps or channels is being driven into clipping, that clipping is confined to it's own band. Usually it's bass peaks and lower frequencies that cause this, and clipping is usually less audible in the bass frequencies and regions. That means if you start driving it hard and your woofers are clipping, your tweeter is not. So it still sounds clean for the most part. So you don't get the negative effect clipping has as much, or as early with an active system. I read on here or somewhere that active systems can be run 4db louder for the same subjective impairment compared to passive. This is equivalent to more than twice the power BTW. So dumping 800 watts to active (easily done) is like dumping 1600+ watts to passive so you get a little extra headroom, or better performance near the limits.

Third- Another cool thing from a design perspective is drivers of different sensitivities can be used. So basically the tweeter is never going to clip on the active off an amp that big because it's never going to get anywhere near the limitations of the amplifier. And the tweet being 8 ohms and pulling less power, while the woofers being 4 ohms and pulling more power- just makes sense really. It works well together in the active set up- but in the passive you'd want to consider the total impedance load of the speaker so you have less design choices or make more compromises.

Fourth- there is some really advanced stuff JBL does in the presets. There is a lot of EQ, shelf filters, delay, DSP, different kinds of crossovers, and such things available in those amps. That's why the settings are different for the active than they are the passive. The same speaker- for example 4722- does not use the same crossover or settings in the active as it does in the passive network. Neither is a carbon clone of the other. Considering there is more available with the active, I am assuming that's the one that most optimized, with the passive being a little more of a compromise due to the practical limitation of it's design. Most of the JBL presets seems to have EQ at certain bands, with vary levels of Q and boost, which I am assuming is to get them more flat. They also have specific delay settings, and in a lot of cases the crossover is a totally different slope, or centered at a different frequency. Considering the lengths JBL PRO goes through in designing and testing their products I have to believe these things are not random, or an accident. They are most likely deliberate to get the most performance possible, or provide the most accurate response.

Personally I'd probably end up with both the passive network (external) and the active and A/B them if I bought these speakers because for the small cost of the crossover it seems like it would be interesting and worth it just to compare. But my gut tells me the active has some small advantages because at least in theory it does to start out, and if I reverse engineer the designs it kind of jumps out that JBL PRO took full advantage of the powerful DSP in the DSi amps and did some specific things, which I believe was deliberate.
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post #94 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 07:35 AM
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When amateurs "go active DSP" with big CD/horns, one issue that keeps popping up: noise. It's one thing that active adds that passive does not. And if you don't manage the gain structures in the chain precisely (and sometimes even if you do), you will hear it. Even a non-digital active solution may exhibit noise just from the power amplifier stage, especially with Class D.

The attenuation used in passive networks to pad down the CDs also effectively lowers the audible noise floor. There is no real substitute for that in the active domain.
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post #95 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
When amateurs "go active DSP" with big CD/horns, one issue that keeps popping up: noise. It's one thing that active adds that passive does not. And if you don't manage the gain structures in the chain precisely (and sometimes even if you do), you will hear it. Even a non-digital active solution may exhibit noise just from the power amplifier stage, especially with Class D.

The attenuation used in passive networks to pad down the CDs also effectively lowers the audible noise floor. There is no real substitute for that in the active domain.
Great Point. But the DSi amp line is specifically made by Crown and branded as JBL screen array to work specifically with these speakers in active- and the active settings come loaded into the amp stock.

Which if there was a serious bonus it's that this is all done factory stock for you- and it's plug and play easy. Usually active can be complicated, you are right.

FYI- I have 4 of the Crown DSi amps and hooked straight up active to my DNA360 CD and SEOS 15" horns I don't have a problem with hiss. The amp and it's low noise floor is important if you run active, these amps are better than most considering how affordable they are.

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post #96 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 08:09 AM
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The old 4675C-LF used dual 2226's. Maybe the 4670D did as well. Awesome speaker but I like my horn and CD better now. I would combine the bottom of the 4675 with the 4722 top but how much better would it be? Probably not worth all the trouble. The 2035 sounds great as well. To me the biggest difference is the ability of the CD to play most of the vocals and higher. Right now my top portion plays 400hz to 16khz and it is fantastic this way.

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post #97 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 08:16 AM
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I'm using a dbx dr260 to active biamp jbl 4731x speakers , the improvement was substantial after switching from a analog 223xl. My speakers are listed on the unit as a preset and all I had to do was adjust the crossover gains. I am still on the lookout for one of the older jbl-bss units like the dsc260 to try on another system. Anyone on here tried the dsc260 ? How is the noise floor ?
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post #98 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 08:18 AM
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One of the ways to improve the noise floor on active big CD/horns: use smaller amplifiers on the CD. It makes little sense to use a 500-watt amplifier for an active CD, and that amplifier will have a higher internal voltage (noise) gain than a smaller amplifier. The controls on the front rarely affect the actual voltage gain; they usually serve as input attenuators.

I am not current on the designs of the plug-in units that have presets for specific drivers. But if I were designing them, part of the preset for CDs would be to effect the active attenuation of the CD by actually changing the voltage gain/feedback of the power amplifier to optimize the noise floor.

It would seem that the tastes of some in this group are reverting to the Klipschorn approach, minus the folded bass horn. Which is/was 400 Hz mid CD/horn. Klipsch used a separate horn tweeter (EV T350) for the VHF, a practice that seems to be passe in this day and age of "house curves" which de-emphasize VHF.

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post #99 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

I am not current on the designs of the plug-in units that have presets for specific drivers. But if I were designing them, part of the preset for CDs would be to effect the active attenuation of the CD by actually changing the voltage gain/feedback of the power amplifier to optimize the noise floor.
That is precisely what the DSi amps do, so you must connect the HF to output 1 and LF to output 2. I once reversed it and couldn't figure out why I was getting no sound. And my CD's are 110dB sensitive with no hiss what so ever.
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post #100 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 09:26 AM
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JBL memory lane!


3622N's with 13hz ported subs





3622N and sealed subs





Put the subs up front and placed the bottom section on its side.





4722 tops with 3622 single 15 and dual DTS-10's





3731 with 3622 single 15





4675C-LF





Now


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post #101 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
Updated to my own question incase anyone cares.

Heard back from JBL Pro. They told me the 4722 need a minimum of 10" between each to get proper stereo imaging.
You'll have more than 10" between L and R, so shouldn't be a problem.
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post #102 of 114 Old 05-15-2015, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't want to be left out.... Here are my 4722's. Running DSI 2000's on each. Have not even finished the room yet.


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post #103 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 03:46 AM
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What made you go with the dsi 2000's over the 1000's? I figured the 1000 would be more power than anyone would use due to the high sensitivity of the speakers.
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post #104 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 05:08 AM
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I didn't want to be left out.... Here are my 4722's. Running DSI 2000's on each. Have not even finished the room yet.


Looks great nice work. What you going with for surrounds 8340A? Nix that I checked out your theather build.

Follow up questions, where are your subs going? Doesnt look like they are in the front stage? Or will they be going between the speakers?

I am trying to decided on what to do with my 12 subs and at the moment thinking six on either side of the room.

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post #105 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 10:01 AM
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Great Point. But the DSi amp line is specifically made by Crown and branded as JBL screen array to work specifically with these speakers in active- and the active settings come loaded into the amp stock.

Which if there was a serious bonus it's that this is all done factory stock for you- and it's plug and play easy. Usually active can be complicated, you are right.

FYI- I have 4 of the Crown DSi amps and hooked straight up active to my DNA360 CD and SEOS 15" horns I don't have a problem with hiss. The amp and it's low noise floor is important if you run active, these amps are better than most considering how affordable they are.
I am about to pull the trigger on the 4722's and have been reading all the information on the Crown DSI amps. Based on how my system is setup, the easiest to integrate these amps would be to keep them up front near the speakers. Since you have them, can you comment on how loud the fans are on these?
THANKS..
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post #106 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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What made you go with the dsi 2000's over the 1000's? I figured the 1000 would be more power than anyone would use due to the high sensitivity of the speakers.
I was able to get a great deal on the 2000's. I can always turn the knob down but not the other way around. Headroom is good.
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post #107 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
Looks great nice work. What you going with for surrounds 8340A? Nix that I checked out your theather build.

Follow up questions, where are your subs going? Doesnt look like they are in the front stage? Or will they be going between the speakers?

I am trying to decided on what to do with my 12 subs and at the moment thinking six on either side of the room.
The subs will be 12 HST 18's in sealed boxes. I am either going to put 8 behind the front stage and 4 behind the back row or put all 12 behind the front stage. I have 30" between the side walls and the L and R 4722. I also have 30" between the center and the L and R. I have the space for 4 "towers" of subs behind the front wall.
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post #108 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 12:55 PM
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For the sealed subs why didn't you go with sanways?


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post #109 of 114 Old 05-16-2015, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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For the sealed subs why didn't you go with sanways?


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Mainly a issue I have with warranty and reliability. I know there are a lot of people here that have not had any issues but I just feel better about getting something with a warranty and not a clone. I am actually planning on getting Crest Pro - Lite's in a few months. Right now I am using 6 inuke 6000's.
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post #110 of 114 Old Yesterday, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post
I am about to pull the trigger on the 4722's and have been reading all the information on the Crown DSI amps. Based on how my system is setup, the easiest to integrate these amps would be to keep them up front near the speakers. Since you have them, can you comment on how loud the fans are on these?
THANKS..
Keep the room cool the fans don't even turn on
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post #111 of 114 Old Yesterday, 10:30 AM
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Keep the room cool the fans don't even turn on
That is good news. I might be able to make them work in the front of my room then.
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Did JBL ever make a speaker that used the 2447 and the 2226 together in one speaker?
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post #113 of 114 Old Today, 07:00 AM
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Yes but it had 4 2226's and a giant midrange horn.

NanoAvr to Outlaw 975
amps-5 Adcom GFA-555's mono's, Sanway FP14K
5 JBL 2447 CD, 5 2352 horns, 3 15 inch 2035 for fronts, 2 15 inch 2032 for surrounds
subs-IB SI 18ht x12
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post #114 of 114 Old Today, 08:34 AM
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Did JBL ever make a speaker that used the 2447 and the 2226 together in one speaker?
4x2226 + midrange horn + 2447 = You gonna die.

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