What DIY or store bought towers for mid-bass punch? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 05-16-2012, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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What speakers can you build or buy kick-you-in-the-chest mid-bass punch?
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post #2 of 50 Old 05-16-2012, 10:46 PM
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compared with what?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #3 of 50 Old 05-16-2012, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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compared with what?

Compared to something like BIC FH-6T
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post #4 of 50 Old 05-16-2012, 11:29 PM
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hey brother,

so many options. it really kind of depends on your budget and your constraints.

that bic design is a fail imho.

96db 1w1m with two 6.5's in a small cab with reasonable output to 36hz, baloney.

when folks want real mid-bass (50-300hz is the critical range), they leave the world of gimmicks and go straight for any number of pro audio drivers and then hit them with big amps.

feel free to go to any concert and see how many folks are running the bics. answer: zero.

ask how many are running drivers such as the jbl 2226h, 18sounds 15lw1401, or 18sounds 15nd930 or any similar pro audio driver (which don't just play loud, but have exceptional distortion and power compression characteristics) and all the hands on the sound deck will go up, well except a couple, but the core idea is that this question has been resolved in the pro audio world long ago and it is only gimmicks and marketing that confuses the average guy from getting into the game (line array and horn guys aside).

and if you get the sense that this pisses me off a bit, yeah, i have been fooled in the past and really don't like seeing other folks get fooled similarly.

the klipsch klf30 was a great speaker, but it was blown out of the market by companies that suggested that you could get the same performance out of a 6.5" woof, or less. waf beat dynamics in round one, but now we are in round two. big is back. :-) the cool thing is that about 50% of wives agree and want the big arse sound of the big arse drives.

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post #5 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 01:01 AM
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Klipsch is even worse with the RF-52II, claiming 96db, and 36hz from a pair of 5.25" woofers

OP, are you trying to find something that costs the same as the Bic speakers? If so the Two Pi is probably your best bet at $100ea for a kit. If you can swing more Pi has much larger speakers. There are also numerous designs out there like Econowaves and various large woofer designs.
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post #6 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 05:55 AM
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...a six cu. foot ported cab with a JBL 2242. It's what your neighborhood theater uses.
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post #7 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 06:03 AM
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What's your budget? You don't have to go pro, but it helps. For commercial designs I bought a pair of klipsch rf3II of CL for $200. They were replaced by the rf82 but I think they are better than the new ones. Anyways with two 8 drives they do a darn good job at kicking me.

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post #8 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 06:19 AM
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+1 on the klf-30. I've tried many different speakers in my system and always found myself gravitating back to the klf.

Having owned the RF3, and having heard the rf7 and many of the newer Klipsch designs. I still prefer the klf strongly.

Its unfortunate that Klipsch built the cabinet with no cross bracing. I blew the cabinet apart on a pair I had a couple yrs ago.
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post #9 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the suggestions. Not looking to go pro - just interested in a solid pair of DIY that compare to people's favs, or if not, just buy a pair. The 2 pi look interesting. Something along those lines, preferably with a flat-pack.
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post #10 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 08:12 AM
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I also had a pair of klf10s and klf20s. No doubt that they got louder and "hit harder" than the rf3s. I loved them, but man any of the klf series are quite large! I feel that they can't touch the detail the rf series bring to the table though. In my smallish room I (well my wife) felt the rf3 was a better fit.

Dan
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post #11 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

Thanks for the suggestions. Not looking to go pro - just interested in a solid pair of DIY that compare to people's favs, or if not, just buy a pair. The 2 pi look interesting. Something along those lines, preferably with a flat-pack.

Haven't you been following the SEOS waveguide thread?
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post #12 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Haven't you been following the SEOS waveguide thread?

No. Is that the link in your thread? Is it available as a kit?
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post #13 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

No. Is that the link in your thread? Is it available as a kit?

How can you miss a thread that has one of the best designed waveguide ever made??? And done right here on AVS!


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...91022&page=127


Most of the components will be here by the end of the month.
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post #14 of 50 Old 05-17-2012, 10:57 PM
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post #15 of 50 Old 05-20-2012, 01:18 PM
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if economical with low midbass is your goal take a look at paul carmody's classix II. they are not a tower but a mid size bookself that goes down to 34 hz f3.
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post #16 of 50 Old 05-20-2012, 09:58 PM
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Curt 's Stetonians anyone? 96db sensitivity and f3 flat to low 50s/ high 48s ? Not to mention they are cheap to make!
Thats if you want towers of course...

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post #17 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Curt 's Stetonians anyone? 96db sensitivity and f3 flat to low 50s/ high 48s ? Not to mention they are cheap to make!
Thats if you want towers of course...

Those look good! Do you know if they cabinets come in a flat pack?

I learned while making my first DIY sub that I suck at cabinet-making.
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post #18 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 02:00 PM
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I had the CNC company cut some trial baffles a couple weeks ago. Just haven't had time to post them yet. The rest of the cabinet is pretty easy to cut with a regular saw. The hardest part is obviously the baffle.

Maybe I could get them to make the rear panel as well just to make sure everything lines up. Sides, top, and bottom are easy.

The baffles were going to be under $15 each if I could find the correct shipping box. I believe they're over 40" tall.
LL
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post #19 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

What speakers can you build or buy kick-you-in-the-chest mid-bass punch?

First make sure your room isn't full of excited high frequencies that are keeping you from turning the volume up past a certain level to let that the elusive and never agreed upon midbass (40-60hz? 70-100hz?) region to shine. You can search and buy speakers forever and not fix a broken room. Not that speakers don't matter...

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #20 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I had the CNC company cut some trial baffles a couple weeks ago. Just haven't had time to post them yet. The rest of the cabinet is pretty easy to cut with a regular saw. The hardest part is obviously the baffle.

Maybe I could get them to make the rear panel as well just to make sure everything lines up. Sides, top, and bottom are easy.

The baffles were going to be under $15 each if I could find the correct shipping box. I believe they're over 40" tall.

That would be awesome! What about the internals? If I read it correctly every pair of woofers is in it's own sealed compartment.
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post #21 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

First make sure your room isn't full of excited high frequencies that are keeping you from turning the volume up past a certain level to let that the elusive and never agreed upon midbass (40-60hz? 70-100hz?) region to shine. You can search and buy speakers forever and not fix a broken room. Not that speakers don't matter...

I'm sure you're right on both counts. How do you check the excitable high frequencies? Audyssey seems to get things right in my untreated room.
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post #22 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

That would be awesome! What about the internals? If I read it correctly every pair of woofers is in it's own sealed compartment.

I don't think that's correct.
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post #23 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I don't think that's correct.

It's true, I just checked. Here's the link:
http://speakerdesignworks.com/NS6project_3.html

Edit:
Looks like they don't have to be separate, it's a choice.
Either way, it would be nice to have those shelf braces with the rabbet joints, cut on cnc machinery for a perfect fit.
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post #24 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subjga View Post

It's true, I just checked. Here's the link:
http://speakerdesignworks.com/NS6project_3.html

Edit:
Looks like they don't have to be separate, it's a choice.
Either way, it would be nice to have those shelf braces with the rabbet joints, cut on cnc machinery for a perfect fit.



The problem is that each cabinet would weigh over 60lbs and I'm not sure there are many people that would want to spend that much shipping for these. The cabinets would likely be around $60 each. No doubt they're decent speakers, but not sure how much interest there is for the whole speaker.
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post #25 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 10:02 PM
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"Curt 's Stetonians anyone? 96db sensitivity..."

bullsh_t.

the tweeter is 96db @2.83v/1m, but the tweet is a 4 ohm drive, and since the speaker is equalized flat what you are really looking at is a 93db 1w/1m speaker, which is okay, but let's try to keep it real.

i have no respect for folks who "fake out" people who don't know any better. shame on you curt for playing along.

mr. c. has a good speaker there, no reason to get into the "fake out" game.

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post #26 of 50 Old 05-21-2012, 10:05 PM
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Players looking for real midbass impact should pay attention to post #4 and follow.

Just sayin'.

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post #27 of 50 Old 05-22-2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
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Players looking for real midbass impact should pay attention to post #4 and follow.

Just sayin'.

Im with you on this one Scott, but for a few reasons, I DO understand what the OP is saying.

Upon purchasing my JTR triple 12's, I anticipated "knock me on the floor" midbass impact compared to the swan diva 6.1's which I was coming from. I was actually quite surprised when Jeff suggested a pair of 12 inch midbasses should still be crossed at 80hz, no lower. I was even more surprised when I listened and measured for the first time where I saw I may even need to cross at 100hz for better performance. While the clarity and dynamic sound of the JTR's make them BY FAR the best speakers ive ever owned, my one concern is still that "impact" in the midbass region. I would have though a pair of 12's would have been more than capable down to 40hz or so. Maybe I should pull them off the tops of the subs or something, maybe get some more gain from floor bounce?

Ive noticed this same thing with a lot of other high efficiency builds. The speakers all in all are spectacular, but just as one of the other OP's that built the 3pi's who is also looking for a little more, I have to believe there is something better out there. My next objective is to build a pair of MBM's as Scott I think you know, to make up for the 40-100hz-ish region where my Subs are too inefficient and my mains cant quite make the cut. Do the builds with the 2226h or the like not have these issues? Are the JBL cinema speakers that utilize these subs in pairs etc. not having these issues?

Now to completely contradict myself, I also understand that many designs dont intentionally dig deeper than 80hz since the mids typically have to cover a good amount of the midrange where additional bass freq's might muddy it all up. Am I correct here? Another reason is that that typical sub shines in the 40-80hz range and doesnt go for huge displacement from 40 down to 10hz like Im going for. Perhaps it is just, if you want the whole gambit, a requirement to have a pair of killer pro 18's to get you that chest punching midbass. All I am saying is I see both sides of the coin here

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post #28 of 50 Old 05-22-2012, 08:49 AM
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Firstly, if you want that kick you in the chest midbass punch, you have to think a little differently to convention, because that kind of performance isn't conventional! Normally it is associated with a live setup, which is a very different system, in a very different context. So you have a different source - it is live, without all the horrendous compression that happens in a studio, loudness wars and all that. So you start with a more dynamic source. Then you have raw amp power - lots of it. And you also have pro speakers with very high efficiency and the ability to get a system house curve. And to top it all off, you probably have acoustics that doesn't kill the experience in the bass.

Now contrast that to a home system with an already compressed music source going into a wimpy amp and low sensitivity speakers with very limited output. Add that to ugly modal ringing and you have an underwhelming result.

You can't do much about the source, except perhaps choosing more dynamic music, but we'll consider the music a given.

You can improve the acoustics of your listening room, and I've found that bass traps actually can let you get closer to that midbass punch experience, since you can get better decay without the bass becoming over the top.

But the key I'll focus on here is two things:

1. Getting enough oomph where it counts
2. Being able to shape the response into a house curve

Power is cheap and you can use a lot of power to get there, but this is working against physics, and things certainly don't get better as you use more power. So it makes a lot of sense, especially for music to go for higher sensitivity. As power goes up, so does compression, and various mechanical and thermal effects.

With this goal in mind it makes sense to let your mains go down to say 80 Hz and no more with decent efficiency ~95 db. Then say some active pro 15" or 18" woofers 40 - 80 Hz, with a good pro amp behind them.

TD18H is my favourite.

In the new system I'm building, 15 - 40 Hz tapped horn monster for LFE, 40 - 250 Hz 18" pro sealed woofer with 450w, then a Synergy horn above. I dial in a house curve for the bass.

The problem with slim towers when you are trying to get the kind of raw midbass punch you get in a live system - they just can't handle the bass level required. The bass has to run at a higher level. If it measures flat in the listening position then it will sound lean, it won't have punch.

Of course, what some people do is put a tower in their room that measures flat anechoic. In the room it might have 15 db peaks. That is where someone might say "hey where is the sub?!" It might impress some, but peaks coming from modal ringing don't fool those who have heard bass done right. Add bass traps to damp the ringing and EQ to pull down the peaks and then you have what sounds like not enough bass, but the bass that is there is accurate and tight. Add in a room curve until it sounds balanced. That is when you find bass bliss. It's very addictive. Start with clean low distortion bass with good time domain performance, low compression, well integrated in a well treated room with the right room curve and it's a revelation. The surprise for me in adding bass traps for the first time was that I had the sense of it being an outdoor system.
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post #29 of 50 Old 05-22-2012, 09:44 AM
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Great writeup Paul, you stated what I was aiming for but ever so much more eloquently. If you dont mind a few questions, how big of a house curve are you running? Are you doing the traditional bass-only house curve or a whole-freq band house curve as some folks are starting to incorporate?

Im 3/4's of the way there as you are right now. but im using a multi sealed bass pump setup down low, and looking for good ideas in the MBM area such as a dual 2226H, td18H, or similar BC driver setup which will take me from 40hz up to around 100-120hz where I can really get some good kick, and let the triple 12's go from there

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post #30 of 50 Old 05-22-2012, 09:54 AM
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Check out the Selenium 18SW800 for a decent and affordable 18" midbass driver. Last I saw they were selling for <$250 on PE. Even consider several of the Eminence drive units, especially if they are just doing midbass. Plenty of good choice out there for midbass, thankfully.

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