Bottoming out my UXL-18. Any help? UPDATE: problem solved! Thanks for the replies :) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Build thread in my sig but the quick and dirty is

3.2 cubic foot sealed box
bridged ep4000 gain all the way up on ch1
audessey calibrated to -15 LFE channel, raised it to -5 after that

Threw in the blu ray demo disc. From the LFE section both cloverfield and black hawk down induced a pretty nasty clanking sound. On BHD it happens even with master vol at -25ish (Onkyo SR608). Based on the simulations I ran in winisd I thought it would be damn near impossible to bottom it. This is my first DIY build so I'm wondering if I'm missing something...
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post #2 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 01:04 PM
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Your other thread mentioned a loud clank, just to be sure this is a metallic clanking correct? When it made the noise did it look like the cone was moving ~2.5"? Assuming it really is bottoming out... Even though the models show it nearly impossible that's where you are now unfortunately. The objective should be to do whatever you can to ensure that it doesn't happen again smile.gif What kind of measurement capabilities do you have? One thing that jumps out at me is you mention Audyssey set the sub to -15 and you turned it back up to -5. Generally if Aud set it to -15 (the lowest setting possible) it indicates the subwoofer was so hot Audyssey couldn't turn the receiver down enough to level it with the mains. I've also heard that when this happens the EQ'ing may not have gotten done correctly. As a quick test I'd turn Audyssey off, recalibrate the sub SPL level and rerun those scenes to see if you still get the clanking. Either way you'll want to turn down the attenuator on the EP4000 and rerun audyssey. You may end up needing a HPF :-\
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post #3 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes a metallic clanking sound and it did appear to be moving a great distance p-p. The duration was short though as I made sure to turn down the volume quickly. I wasn't aware that Audyssey had a maximum limit of attenuation. I was just going by the usual preference of most people(and myself) to run the sub 10dB hot. But even considering all that shouldn't the amp clip before I get into over-excursion? I thought maybe I had a leak around the binding post cup but I checked and couldn't feel any air moving back there.

I have a ratshack meter and could run some basic sweeps on it in req...

edit: my mains are polk rti10 which put out good mid-bass. Audyssey set the xover at 40 Hz. Not sure why the sub would come out so high compared to the mains if that is in fact what happened. Will try out your suggestion when I get home.
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post #4 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Yes a metallic clanking sound and it did appear to be moving a great distance p-p. The duration was short though as I made sure to turn down the volume quickly. I wasn't aware that Audyssey had a maximum limit of attenuation. I was just going by the usual preference of most people(and myself) to run the sub 10dB hot. But even considering all that shouldn't the amp clip before I get into over-excursion? I thought maybe I had a leak around the binding post cup but I checked and couldn't feel any air moving back there.
I have a ratshack meter and could run some basic sweeps on it in req...
edit: my mains are polk rti10 which put out good mid-bass. Audyssey set the xover at 40 Hz. Not sure why the sub would come out so high compared to the mains if that is in fact what happened. Will try out your suggestion when I get home.

It could be different on your AVR but usually -15dB is the lowest trim setting for the subwoofer (I was making an assumption...). Based on the models you should be good but apparently that's not the reality unfortunately redface.gif I know I much prefer to be power limited so I know no matter how crazy I get with the volume I won't break something. My suspicion is that turning Audyssey off will relieve your problem (until you turn it up too loud of course) and if you measure you'll find something similar to this http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412879/holy-crap-audyssey wink.gif
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 01:49 PM
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yep, AND if you have dynamic EQ on, it will boost the low end stuff even more, causing your sub to REALLY go hard in the paint.

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post #6 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 06:51 PM
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Looking at the power available and what your AVR is doing, I'd bet the house that you are clipping.

I'm running my single UXL in a 4000 sq ft room off the FP14k and I've gotten that cone moving a ton but haven't tried those films yet. No clanking sounds...but I know I'm not amp limited.

Will want to know what you find out.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I think you nailed it. I just played the black hawk down "Irene" scene again and gingerly increased the volume until I got a quiet clank and the red clip lights did come on on the EP. The odd thing is I swear I checked that before when I first noticed it and didn't see any clip lights.

What do you think is the best way to deal with this? Ideally more power I know, but until then... attenuate the ep? Just turn down the LFE level? I do have a BFD I haven't even messed with yet, maybe an HPF is needed. I'm pretty sure it is like sub 10 Hz frequencies causing it.

I checked and dynamic EQ is off BTW. I don't think I've ever had it on.
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post #8 of 25 Old 06-07-2012, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

Looking at the power available and what your AVR is doing, I'd bet the house that you are clipping.

I'm running my single UXL in a 4000 sq ft room off the FP14k and I've gotten that cone moving a ton but haven't tried those films yet. No clanking sounds...but I know I'm not amp limited.

Will want to know what you find out.

Are you running the FP14k bridged into the UXL?
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Will try out your suggestion when I get home.

What did you find out with turning Audyssey off? Did you rerun it with the sub turned down some?
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post #10 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Well yeah turning it down obviously stops it. I don't really consider that a solution though. biggrin.gif
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 07:11 AM
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How about learning to use Audessey correctly:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1

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post #12 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Well yeah turning it down obviously stops it. I don't really consider that a solution though. biggrin.gif

Lol. That's not the point actually. Did you try with Audyssey off but still calibrated to the same levelto see if Audyssey is just boosting the low end like in my setup where it has 7hz +23dB as compared to 30hz? Did you rerun Audyssey with the sub turned down to allow it to properly set the level and avoid it messing up the EQ entirely? Kinda' a big deal... kinda why I suggested it in the first response wink.gif

Since Audyssey set your sub to -15 there's no way to know how hot you're running it currently. If this was my setup, even if I just had been running the sub 10dB hotter than the mains my ULF content (the specific content you're experiencing issues on) would be running +33dB as compared to the rest of the subwoofer eek.gif Clipping comes VERY early in this scenario which I quickly found out when I clipped my EP2500 with the MV at only -20dB during Bass, I Love you wink.gif

Ideally I'd setup a loop through measurement of the subwoofer out on your AVR to see exactly what Audyssey is doing to the sub signal. Pretty simple actually just setup REW and instead of connecting your Rat Shack SPL meter to the input on your sound card connect the subwoofer output on the AVR to the sound card input.
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Well thanks for explaining it further. I didn't really have time to read through your other thread before so I didn't understand what audyssey was doing, but that makes sense. I turned audyssey off and calibrated the sub to the same level as the other speakers. No more clipping. smile.gif So thanks.

I will definitely get around to measuring it and trying to flatten out the response when I have more time. I wish there was a way to use audyssey for just the mains and turn it off for the sub so I could just start with a clean signal into the BFD.
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post #14 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Well thanks for explaining it further. I didn't really have time to read through your other thread before so I didn't understand what audyssey was doing, but that makes sense. I turned audyssey off and calibrated the sub to the same level as the other speakers. No more clipping. smile.gif So thanks.
I will definitely get around to measuring it and trying to flatten out the response when I have more time. I wish there was a way to use audyssey for just the mains and turn it off for the sub so I could just start with a clean signal into the BFD.

No worries smile.gif I'm not sure if it works on the newer AVR's but I know my older PR-SC885 will allow me to run Audyssey with the sub turned off then turn the sub on and set the crossover after. I can't remember if I ever measured the L, R, and sub preouts to ensure the Audyssey EQ stayed intact for the L&R though and that it sent a clean un-EQ'd signal to the sub...

Before getting too far ahead of yourself be sure to rerun Audyssey with the sub turned down some, the problem might not come back. If that doesn't solve the issue and you can measure the sub signal coming out of the AVR you can try to do what I'm doing now. I ran Audyssey then measured what filters it set and set those in my EQ then reran Audyssey. I was trying to get it to stop boosting the low end so much - figured if I put in the same filters it's going to it won't have to add any and won't mess with my signal smile.gif. I got it a bit closer but didn't quite get there and just did something else instead. Looking at the last graphs I posted in my thread it looks like if I put that boost around 80hz into my EQ Audyssey probably wouldn't be boosting the low end any more. I'd definitely pursue that route if I were in your situation. I'm using a DCX2496 so was able to setup an HPF to basically undo the craziness that Audyssey did to my signal, that won't be possible with the BFD unfortunately.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-08-2012, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Are you running the FP14k bridged into the UXL?

Nope, just one of the 2 channels.

You are probably just getting way too hot a signal like Lennon is talking about in those lower octaves. I'd try EQ'n without Audyssey and see what the sound is like. Some people prefer the sound overall.

It has been shown that Audyssey adds a ton of boost <15/10 hz what have you on many setups. Some have shown the comparison to a CSL calibrated or better mics re: Audyssey on the low end.
Maybe it is the Audyssey mic not reading as well as you would want that low, maybe the software...whatever.

Anyways, sounds like you are on the track to figuring it out.
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post #16 of 25 Old 06-09-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

bridged ep4000 gain all the way up on ch1
.

^^^This has caused me problems in the past with gains on other amps/pre-amps (not specifically with the ep). In my experience, gains turned all the way up has introduced early distortion.

I've found a sweet spot between 1/2 to 3/4. Trying turning the gain down on the ep, and increasing it on the AVR.
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post #17 of 25 Old 06-11-2012, 10:27 AM
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More than likely a HPF will cure the problem 9 times out of 10. A HPF should also help with the amp clipping and if clipping still occurs then turn on the clip limiter on the EP4K. Usually the best solution to this problem is not just a new amp but also another sub as you only have so much excursion with a single driver. Another solution would be to move the sub closer to your listening position or right next to it so you can turn the volume down.

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post #18 of 25 Old 06-11-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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The problem was already solved by turning off Audyssey. Thanks for the reply though.
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-11-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

The problem was already solved by turning off Audyssey. Thanks for the reply though.

To me, that's a workaround not a solution. smile.gif But if you're happy, then that's all that matters.

If you ever decide that you want to run Audyssey, try experimenting with the ep gain and AVR level. It might allow you to run Audyssey without clipping...

To me its sounds like a setup issue as opposed to a limitation of the driver or amp. I wouldn't think the UXL in that enclosure should be bottoming out.
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post #20 of 25 Old 06-11-2012, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Well it's not a permanent solution. I plan to try the previously proposed solution of running Audyssey without the sub and then turning the sub on and eq'ing with the BFD. If that doesn't work then I will look into other solutions. However from everything I've read, reducing the gain on the amplifier is not the way to go. You're just robbing yourself of headroom. Besides, I already tried reducing the ep4000 gain just for kicks. With Audyssey on, it still clipped.
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post #21 of 25 Old 06-11-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Well it's not a permanent solution. I plan to try the previously proposed solution of running Audyssey without the sub and then turning the sub on and eq'ing with the BFD. If that doesn't work then I will look into other solutions. However from everything I've read, reducing the gain on the amplifier is not the way to go. You're just robbing yourself of headroom. Besides, I already tried reducing the ep4000 gain just for kicks. With Audyssey on, it still clipped.

I've read that Chris Kyriakakis stated that if you run Audyssey with sub=No, and then change to sub=Yes, it erases all of the Audyssey EQ. He also stated that you can't add speakers without re-running audyssey.

Curious about your headroom comment: I'm a recent new owner of 2 EP4000s and hadn't heard this. Could you explain a little more? How do you lose headroom if the gain is not max'd out on the EP? I may have to change my setting...

BTW, I'm running the 21in variant to your UXL. smile.gif
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post #22 of 25 Old 06-11-2012, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Well it's not a permanent solution. I plan to try the previously proposed solution of running Audyssey without the sub and then turning the sub on and eq'ing with the BFD. If that doesn't work then I will look into other solutions. However from everything I've read, reducing the gain on the amplifier is not the way to go. You're just robbing yourself of headroom. Besides, I already tried reducing the ep4000 gain just for kicks. With Audyssey on, it still clipped.

How far down did you turn it? If the goal for the sub channel is to get it between -3 and zero dbs as per the Audyssey setup guide, you'd have to turn it way down to get Aud to calculate it as it should. Fact is, even if you turned it down, Aud can add up to 10dbs of boost. Using the principle of trying the simple things first, you would be well served to take the advise of other posters about turning down the gains and re-running it. What you can do is run it using just one position, calculate it, then check the level the sub is set to before adjusting if necessary. Trust me, I've had PLENTY of experience with what Audyssey can do to your sub channel if not done correctly.
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post #23 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I turned it down to about 3/4. If I have to turn it "way down" then why, with the EP at max gain, did I need to set the LFE channel to only -8dB to level match it with the rest of my speakers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Curious about your headroom comment: I'm a recent new owner of 2 EP4000s and hadn't heard this. Could you explain a little more? How do you lose headroom if the gain is not max'd out on the EP? I may have to change my setting...

BTW, I'm running the 21in variant to your UXL. smile.gif

There is quite a lengthy discussion about amplifier gain here. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1313520/pro-amp-gain/0_100

I admit I do not fully understand it yet. I have read from more than a few people on here that turning the amp all the way up and calibrating the signal via your receiver/processor is the way to go. I've yet to hear a convincing argument against doing that. (I'm talking about in the absence of using Audyssey here, obviously).

edit: as I've been reading the thread I linked it sounds like turning down the gain on the amp doesn't actually limit the amp's power, whereas I've definitely gotten the impression around here that it does.
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post #24 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

bridged ep4000 gain all the way up on ch1
.

^^^This has caused me problems in the past with gains on other amps/pre-amps (not specifically with the ep). In my experience, gains turned all the way up has introduced early distortion.

I've found a sweet spot between 1/2 to 3/4. Trying turning the gain down on the ep, and increasing it on the AVR.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by halo0 View Post

Well it's not a permanent solution. I plan to try the previously proposed solution of running Audyssey without the sub and then turning the sub on and eq'ing with the BFD. If that doesn't work then I will look into other solutions. However from everything I've read, reducing the gain on the amplifier is not the way to go. You're just robbing yourself of headroom. Besides, I already tried reducing the ep4000 gain just for kicks. With Audyssey on, it still clipped.

I've read that Chris Kyriakakis stated that if you run Audyssey with sub=No, and then change to sub=Yes, it erases all of the Audyssey EQ. He also stated that you can't add speakers without re-running audyssey.

Curious about your headroom comment: I'm a recent new owner of 2 EP4000s and hadn't heard this. Could you explain a little more? How do you lose headroom if the gain is not max'd out on the EP? I may have to change my setting...

BTW, I'm running the 21in variant to your UXL. smile.gif

 

My BFD output voltage is pretty closely matched to the input sensitivity of my EP4000.  When set properly they clip intermittently and interchangeably at their respective limits.  I back it down from this setting so that neither the EQ or Amp ever clip......  If I were to turn down the knobs on the amp I would never reach full output on my amp since the output voltage of the BFD is static and close to the input sensitivity of the EP4000.

 

OP, If you haven't already read up on setting gain structure.

 

The EP4000 needs approx 1.15V for full rated power and the BFD only puts out 1.26V on its outputs.  So if you attenuate your inputs on the EP4000 by turning down knobs you'll never reach power, assuming you don't clip the EQ and that your using the -10dbV position.  A conservative setting on the AVR which doesn't clip the BFD should drive a EP4000 to approximate maximum with knobs set all the way to the right......


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post #25 of 25 Old 06-12-2012, 03:27 PM
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When I run audyssey pro, I have to turn my amps down to almost nothing to get the 75dB's it wants to start. I just go in manually and adjust the trim and speaker levels (JTR's) later once it's done. I run all my amps 7/8 full and adjust with my DCX and 80.3. Works perfect.

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