2 Dayton Titanic MK III 15s or 1 TC Sounds LMS-R 15 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright here goes nothing. I'll start with graph comparisons (none with SPL calibrated, but since the SPL is not calibrated in either scenario it should be a an equal playingfield), then I"ll throw in some Build photos.

For those that hadn't seen my previous post that I accidently stuck a screwdriver through the surround on one of the V1220 drivers and replaced it with an infinity 1230W....I did, here is the graph of the V1220, F12 and 1230W:

v1220infinity1230f12-1.jpg

Here is the Graph of the Daytons UnEq'd:

daytonfrontcornersnoeq.jpg

Here is the overlay of the two above graphs, colors are the same, red is Daytons green is bics + infinity

daytonvsbicinfinity.jpg

Here are the build pictures up until some shots of the finish mostly dry:

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To finish them, I turned ghetto and turned an old table on its side and sat the cabs one on each leg...white trash? meh...

DSCN2119.jpg

FInish is a Deck Restore product from Home Depot: http://www.amazon.com/SYNTA-INC-49005-Restore-Deck/dp/B002ZH63HA (was only $39.00 at Home Depot)

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I'm a little curious why the SPL levels at 20 Hz are the same for the Bics and the Daytons?? Hmmm

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post #92 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 06:45 PM
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What amp are you using with the Titanics? Are you sure it doesn't have a high pass filter? Your subs should go down 14-10hz or so in room.

Also, 2 sealed Dayton Titanics will not be much more spl then 3 12" ported subs. You should have gotten 4 daytons for a true upgrade.

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post #93 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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inuke 3000DSP, no filters. my graph has set up to not show lower than 20 Hz. it was doing something lower as it was making my screen shake on the TV where the BICs never did that. I would think 2 sealed daytons would be higher SPL at 20 Hz than 3 ported subs with 3rd order highpass filters at 20 Hz....They start rolling off at like 32....

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post #94 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 07:39 PM
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Well, the good thing about DIY is, if you want a different setup all you have to do is build a different box. You started out saying you want a really deep sub 20hz setup, I get the feeling that isnt really the case. Since you got that DSP amp with adjustable filters, you could try building a 20-25hz ported box and comparing it with everything else. I think you would be a little more satisfied.
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post #95 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 07:55 PM
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why don't you try eqing to taste?
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post #96 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I did some EQing, I only had sunday to play and then took the subs back out to put the "finish" on the box. I had it raised at 20 Hz quite a bit, but had ot have it turned way down, I'll play with it more this weekend.

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post #97 of 112 Old 06-26-2012, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Well, the good thing about DIY is, if you want a different setup all you have to do is build a different box. You started out saying you want a really deep sub 20hz setup, I get the feeling that isnt really the case. Since you got that DSP amp with adjustable filters, you could try building a 20-25hz ported box and comparing it with everything else. I think you would be a little more satisfied.

I absolutely want sub 20 Hz...I'm just curious about the results, like I said, I"m pleased that the 15s can shake my TV....and was very pleased with what I heard watching underworld awakening. I am just trying to understand the differences in the two set ups.

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post #98 of 112 Old 06-27-2012, 05:44 AM
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TBH im surprised there isnt a whole lot more peaking at the 40-50hz range with the 12in setup.

Most of the smaller 12inch subs out there heavily favor that range:

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=47&mset=45

This may be what you are missing in the 15's since there is still a bit of an emphasis in that range showing for the 12's in your sweep.
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post #99 of 112 Old 06-27-2012, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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The more I think about it, the more I think there is something WRONG with that Dayton graph....As it was doing things the BICS had never done, so there must have been something more on the low end. I opened the two graphs I posted earlier and looked at them all the way down to 5Hz and they were really close with the BICS actually being higher...This may be a noob mistake on my part...The cabs are dry, so I might go ahead and put the drivers back in tonight and do some more graphs. I have to admit, when I first started I newbed it up with plugging one of the banana plugs in backwards...this graph might just be one that was taken while that was the case, I don't think it is, but its possible. I have the BICS hooked back up right now and they sound different than they had previously. I'm going to play around and try and get them back to what they were set at and do another graph so I have something to compare to.

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post #100 of 112 Old 06-30-2012, 08:04 AM
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I'd like to come over today and help you setup a flat FR using the omnimic and the INuke DSP. You have plans?

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post #101 of 112 Old 07-01-2012, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Archaea came over and we spent most of the day re-positioning the subs, we ended up re-arranging my entire living room before we got something that seemed semi ok. We EQed it to fairly flat and it sounds 1000000000 times better than the previous positioning. He has the graphs and will supply the links to me when he gets them uploaded and I'll post them with the EQ settings and explanations as best as I can remember of what they represent. All I can say is it sounds WAY better than it did and I am now confident the upgrade from the BICS was well worth it. Thanks everyone for the help and advice, I think I'll likely stick with getting an inuke 3000DSP, but thats still being debated. THanks.

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post #102 of 112 Old 07-02-2012, 10:32 PM
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I'm sorry I was being a bit lazy about posting the FR graphs we captured. This weekend I really cemented in my mind how much difference EQ makes. If you read between the lines on this thread you can tell that Nelson was a bit disappointed in the way his new subs sounded at first - especially for music. I would agree, they didn't sound good just dropped into the corners of his room. There was a pretty bad dip between 50 and 70hz no matter where we moved or angled the subs it initially seemed. We moved the subs all over the place in his room - trying different walls, different lengths along the walls, different driver orientatoin etc. We actually found out that the closest to perfect FR graph we could find from a reasonable seating position would be if he moved his TV to a opposite wall, and the couch to the other side. So we did. This move alone made the subs sound much better - even without futher EQ. Then we used the FR captured in omnimic to plug into REW and use REW to calculate our DSP filters for the Inuke DSP 3000 amp. This is a cool function and admittedly I haven't figured out all the bells and whistles, but generally speaking the filter calculators worked nicely as you'll see below. You'll note that in my FR graphs there was no smoothing used.

Blue line represents our close close mic measurement of drivers. We probably had the mic about 2 inches from the dustcap on the subwoofer driver. The blue line looks like it should for a generic sealed enclosure and expected roll-off. I measured both enclosures at the same distance and they were for all purposes identical. The lines nearly perfectly overlaid --- so much so that there was no reason to capture both and it was clear that his cabs were sealed correctly and the drivers were working correctly. The red line is the best FR we could get from the subs at the expected listening position. It typically looked much worse than the red line, but after re-arranging the room the red line was then our starting point to have the best listening position frequency response in which to EQ. The green line is what the 3 or 4 filters on the REW EQ filter suggestion loooked like. The sound change to the DSP EQ setting was tame in comparison to the un EQ'ed sound, but the EQ sounded nice and accurate in Nelson's room. Ultimately the non-eq'ed version sound and eq'ed sound both have their positives. It's just nice to have a somewhat decent FR, even if non eq'ed based on placment alone, and that's the real win here! The subs sounded WORLD's better by the end of the setup time. WORLD's better indeed! They went from a initial dissappointment to an enjoyable sound with just a few hours setup and EQ.


DaytonTitanicMKIIIFROverlay.jpg
http://s1191.photobucket.com/albums/z472/jvonengeln/Subwoofer%20Frequency%20Response%20Graphs/?action=view&current=DaytonTitanicMKIIIFROverlay.jpg

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post #103 of 112 Old 07-12-2012, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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This stinks! I've been out of town since Sunday and my lame hotel room doesn't have crap for a home theater frown.gif. They should offer 7.8 surround sound in their rooms!

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post #104 of 112 Old 08-25-2012, 09:21 PM
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For those interested here is a comparison of KCNitro07's DIY project against a couple of retail options

The Klipsch RW-12D and the Jamo sub 650.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426307/klipsch-rw-12d-pair-vs-jamo-650-sub-pair-vs-dayton-audio-titanik-mk-iii-sealed-sub-pair-subwoofer-shootout/0_20

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post #105 of 112 Old 11-12-2012, 10:01 PM
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Nelson and I spent a couple hours today comparing my Crown XLS-5000 amp vs. the Inuke DSP 3000 amp on his pair of Titanik MK3 sealed drivers. Our goal was to see if the Inuke DSP 3000 was limiting his pair of sealed 15" drivers in comparison to an amp that has all the power it could possibly need to push the Titanik MK3 drivers to the ragged edge.

Summary:
It appears that the Inuke DSP 3000 is actually a very solid matchup to the Dayton drivers. We determined that when the Inuke got to the point of steady clipping on a naked, un-equed signal, that there was only about 1dB of headroom left on the table before the Titanik drivers themselves started compressing as tested when they had virtually unlimited power on the XLS5000.

The way we tested this was to begin charting the frequency response of Nelson's pair of subwoofers on the omnimic and continue to increase the volume until the subs FR stopped raising linearly. During these tests, the mains were always disconnected, and we were only listening to subs. The omnimic was placed in Nelson's main seating position. We never encountered compressing on the drivers when powered by the Inuke with no EQ applied. What we encountered as the limit was actually a steady clip light on the Inuke amp. This level of full clip while still raining linearly in frequency response is indicated by the black line in the graphic that follows. We switched over the Crown XLS-5000 and increased the volume until we hit the same general SPL based FR curve and recorded that which is the red line in the graphic that follows. On the Crown amp of course there was no clip light indicated, and plenty of power left in the tank. You'll note that FR's are basically in line between the two amps with the exception of a somewhat negligable difference between 50 and 60hz. I don't have an answer as to why this difference was encountered, but it is a small enough descrepancy not to be concerned with --- so it appear that to the point right before full clipping on the Inuke DSP 3000 amp you are getting a nominal output and similar frequency response to a full heavy duty battletank 5000 watt Crown amplifier.

InukeVsCrown-InukeVsCrownbothwithnoEQ-rightbeforeclippingonInuke.jpg

Unfortunately, I didn't catch a graph of what happened next, when we decided to push the Crown. We turned the AVR volume up just a bit to see if the sub drivers had anything left when powered by the more capable Crown amp and the subs started making a bit of bad sound, almost immediately after raising the volume from this point. The clip lights never flashed on the mighty Crown amp all night, but you could tell the Titanik drivers were at this limit as the FR graphs stopped raising linearly when pushed harder by the Crown amp. Summary - The INuke DSP 3000 is a good matchup to the Dayton pair, and you don't leave much, if anything, on the table by forgoing an upgrade to a more powerful amp.



Round 2 of testing. We began testing with the MIC2200 providing EQ. Using the analog dial we were stripping down spl at 65-70hz, and adding juice at maybe around 15hz - 20hz according to the mic2200 dial settings. This allowed a fairly flat EQ line down to about 17hz as you'll see in the blue line in the following chart. This graphed blue line was about the most we could get out of the drivers before compression or some sort of unwelcome, and non linear change to frequency response occurred. How did this 'compression' or non linear frequency response change reveal itself as we upped the volume? We'll oddly enough, it didn't seem to occur at the lower frequencies, but at the higher frequencies instead. Both amps started showing a null at around 65hz, when pushed about 5dB beyond what the last linear increase in SPL was recorded at. You can see in this instance that once again, the amps aren't at fault for the change in frequency response, but rather that drivers were hitting some sort of limit. As to why this occurred at 65hz instead of 10 or 15hz? I don't know. Perhaps someone can offer some insight.

InukeVsCrown-InukeVsCrowninCompression.jpg




Finally here is a graph with all five captures together
InukeVsCrown-AllInfoPlotted.jpg

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post #106 of 112 Old 11-13-2012, 01:49 PM
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Nice work! How did the Daytons sound to your ear when fully/properly powered?

Also good news is that the Crown does not appear to be rolling off the ~10hz signals!
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post #107 of 112 Old 11-13-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Both amps started showing a null at around 65hz, when pushed about 5dB beyond what the last linear increase in SPL was recorded at. You can see in this instance that once again, the amps aren't at fault for the change in frequency response, but rather that drivers were hitting some sort of limit. As to why this occurred at 65hz instead of 10 or 15hz? I don't know. Perhaps someone can offer some insight.

Since both amps are similar, it looks like the signal might have clipped.The MIC2200 converts from analog to digital and then back to analog and it could clip at some point depending on the input/output level. Did the original, no EQ graph include the MIC2200 in the signal chain? If it didn't you could try it with the MIC2200 with no EQ and see if the same thing happens. If it did, then the addition of EQ will change the internal gain structure of the MIC2200 depending on how its DSP works.
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post #108 of 112 Old 11-15-2012, 04:31 AM
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I am happy to hear that the iNuke 3000dsp is a capable subwoofer amp. It is nice to have something with plenty of power and also built in Dsp as well! I wonder how the iNuke series of Amps would work for powering and eq'ing mains, (LCR's), in a home theater setting?
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post #109 of 112 Old 11-19-2012, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought the Daytons sounded pretty good. I don't like using the DSP in the inuke though because it doesn't allow you to do anything below 20 Hz. With the Mic2200 we could boost a few DB below 20 Hz and get relatively flat response to 17 where as I had a hefty roll off below 20 Hz before . I was able to feel some shaking I hadn't felt before biggrin.gif As a result I ordered an iNuke 6000 (non DSP) and will be getting a miniDSP for EQing purposes. Unfortunately, the AMP is on backorder, but should be shipped at the end of the month. I went with the 6000 over the 3000 so I can add more and not have to buy another amp. $100 more now vs $300 later... My ultimate goal is 4 x MKIIIs 2 off each channel. According to an article I read on HTS the other day, the inuke 6000 puts out about 1800 watts x 2 @ 4 Ohms and 1100 watts x2 @ 8 ohms. Now I'm not so sure that was a wise choice as they are 4 Ohm speakers so with 2 I'd either be at 8 Ohms or 2 Ohms. With 1100 into 2 (550 each?) would I still be better off than a 3000 into 2? Hmmmm


As for the RS18 I'm hearing about, maybe my next 2 will be those biggrin.gif.

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post #110 of 112 Old 11-19-2012, 12:54 PM
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"Now I'm not so sure that was a wise choice as they are 4 Ohm speakers so with 2 I'd either be at 8 Ohms or 2 Ohms. With 1100 into 2 (550 each?) would I still be better off than a 3000 into 2? Hmmmm"

yeah, that is the only thing that sucks about the inuke 6000, it is essentially two 3000 bridged per channel and is not 2 ohm stable per channel so the only way to wire up a quad set of daytons is 8 ohms per channel and that leaves a lot of power on the table.

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post #111 of 112 Old 11-21-2012, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Since both amps are similar, it looks like the signal might have clipped.The MIC2200 converts from analog to digital and then back to analog and it could clip at some point depending on the input/output level. Did the original, no EQ graph include the MIC2200 in the signal chain? If it didn't you could try it with the MIC2200 with no EQ and see if the same thing happens. If it did, then the addition of EQ will change the internal gain structure of the MIC2200 depending on how its DSP works.

The original graph with the iNuke did not have the MIC2200, I believe the crown did, but it was turned off. I have used the DSP on the iNuke quite a bit to EQ and never had it dip like that, however, I also wasn't boosting down low with the DSP like we were with the MIC2200. The iNuke 6000 I ordered won't ship until the end of November, maybe Jonathan will loan me that MIC2200 for a bit more testing.

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post #112 of 112 Old 12-20-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcnitro07 View Post

I thought the Daytons sounded pretty good. I don't like using the DSP in the inuke though because it doesn't allow you to do anything below 20 Hz. With the Mic2200 we could boost a few DB below 20 Hz and get relatively flat response to 17 where as I had a hefty roll off below 20 Hz before . I was able to feel some shaking I hadn't felt before biggrin.gif As a result I ordered an iNuke 6000 (non DSP) and will be getting a miniDSP for EQing purposes. Unfortunately, the AMP is on backorder, but should be shipped at the end of the month. I went with the 6000 over the 3000 so I can add more and not have to buy another amp. $100 more now vs $300 later... My ultimate goal is 4 x MKIIIs 2 off each channel. According to an article I read on HTS the other day, the inuke 6000 puts out about 1800 watts x 2 @ 4 Ohms and 1100 watts x2 @ 8 ohms. Now I'm not so sure that was a wise choice as they are 4 Ohm speakers so with 2 I'd either be at 8 Ohms or 2 Ohms. With 1100 into 2 (550 each?) would I still be better off than a 3000 into 2? Hmmmm
As for the RS18 I'm hearing about, maybe my next 2 will be those biggrin.gif.

Were the two Daytons in one box or were they set up as two seperate subwoofers? I have 4 Tempest X 15" woofers that I plan to mount in two 6 cf sealed boxes. If I hook these up in a series configuration they will measure at 2 ohms. The other choice is to hook them up in series/parallel configuration (they are dual voice coils) which will give me 8 ohms. So which amp would work better, the inuke 3000DSP or the 6000. If I go with the 6000 i will have to set up the woofers for 8 ohms, but if I go with the 3000 I can go with a 2 ohm setup. Any thoughts on this?
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