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post #1 of 35 Old 06-19-2012, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Since my MFW-15 bit the dust a couple of weeks ago, I am now looking for a new sub, and will probably build my own as I believe that I can get much more bang for my buck. With that being said, I need design idea's. I have read through much of the database here in the DIY forum and while there are lots of designs to choose from, I have no idea which would give me the best bang for my buck in terms of digging down low and having some decent output? I want the sub to go down to a least 18hz, and also be able to have some pretty good output as well. I at least want the sub to equal my MFW-15, if not exceed it.. I also need suggestions on which driver to go with, my budget is $350 for the driver, $300 for the amp. What ever the materials end up costing, is fine. My room is 18 x 14. Suggestions?
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post #2 of 35 Old 06-19-2012, 09:46 AM
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Something like a pair of Dayton dvc385's, each in about 6.5-8 ft3 tuned to 18hz, powered by a behringer nu3000dsp would be pretty nice for your $650 budget.
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post #3 of 35 Old 06-19-2012, 10:04 AM
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TRIO12 kit is $400 with amp/driver/passive radiators/hardware. I got these numbers in a 24" box at 1 meter, corner loaded. Amp has high-pass built into it approx 18.5 Hz which explains the rolloff below 20. At the LP, SPL were about 4 dB lower (ish)
16 Hz -- 104 dB
18 Hz -- 114 dB
20 Hz -- 118 dB
22 Hz -- 119 dB
25 Hz -- 118 dB
28 Hz -- 117 dB
31.5Hz-- 114 dB
35 Hz - - 109 dB
40 Hz - -105 dB
45 Hz - - 107 dB

So with your budget, you should be able to do better!

HT: Yamaha RX-V565 | 3 X Energy Take FPS, 2 X VS Surround, 2 X Take LCR | DIY Subs: SDX12 APR15 & TRIO12 Dual APR 12's | 47" LCD

Music: Yamaha RX-V863 | 2 X Energy RC-70 | MA RXw12 Sub

Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR

Car: Sony Xplod HU, Xplod 6X9s, Kenwood 4"s, Alpine 12" Type-S, Rockford Amp,...

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post #4 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

TRIO12 kit is $400 with amp/driver/passive radiators/hardware. I got these numbers in a 24" box at 1 meter, corner loaded. Amp has high-pass built into it approx 18.5 Hz which explains the rolloff below 20. At the LP, SPL were about 4 dB lower (ish)
16 Hz -- 104 dB
18 Hz -- 114 dB
20 Hz -- 118 dB
22 Hz -- 119 dB
25 Hz -- 118 dB
28 Hz -- 117 dB
31.5Hz-- 114 dB
35 Hz - - 109 dB
40 Hz - -105 dB
45 Hz - - 107 dB
So with your budget, you should be able to do better!

Those are some impressive numbers! Where can I find the info and ordering/pricing info on a TRIO12 kit?
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post #5 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Something like a pair of Dayton dvc385's, each in about 6.5-8 ft3 tuned to 18hz, powered by a behringer nu3000dsp would be pretty nice for your $650 budget.



Thanks for the reply, Jay1!


What about using duel opposed LMS Ultra's in a large box? I am not very familiar with the LMS Ultra's (only know them by name) but they seem to be very well regarded. I could possibly stretch my budget to $800 dollars (not sure if I can get two LMS Ultra's for that?) for the drivers and then put off purchasing the amp for a while. I have absolutely no size or placement limitations for this sub(s) as my significant other doesn't mind a big ugly sub or two in our theater room (actually my man cave!)


What do you guys think of doing perhaps a dual opposed, ported box, with a pair of LMS Ultra's?
What are the advantages of using a dual opposed box instead of a regular (ported, I dislike sealed) box?
Would I get better performance by going with two dual opposed boxes, using a pair of cheaper (perhaps Dayton's?) sub woofer drivers?
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post #6 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 08:48 AM
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If you're referring to the 18" TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400, they are $925 each.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-666

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post #7 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Thanks for the reply, Jay1!
What about using duel opposed LMS Ultra's in a large box? I am not very familiar with the LMS Ultra's (only know them by name) but they seem to be very well regarded. I could possibly stretch my budget to $800 dollars (not sure if I can get two LMS Ultra's for that?) for the drivers and then put off purchasing the amp for a while. I have absolutely no size or placement limitations for this sub(s) as my significant other doesn't mind a big ugly sub or two in our theater room (actually my man cave!)
What do you guys think of doing perhaps a dual opposed, ported box, with a pair of LMS Ultra's?
What are the advantages of using a dual opposed box instead of a regular (ported, I dislike sealed) box?
Would I get better performance by going with two dual opposed boxes, using a pair of cheaper (perhaps Dayton's?) sub woofer drivers?

IMO, going ported is a waste of the LMS. It is really optimized for a sealed box with a ton of power. If you want to go ported with the LMS, consider using passive radators. This is going to put you way over budget.
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post #8 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so I now realize that the LMS ultra is not do-able due to the price.

What designs should I be looking into in order to get the deep bass and output that I was use to with my stock MFW-15?
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post #9 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 05:54 PM
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what about 2 X TRIO 12 's ?

HT: Yamaha RX-V565 | 3 X Energy Take FPS, 2 X VS Surround, 2 X Take LCR | DIY Subs: SDX12 APR15 & TRIO12 Dual APR 12's | 47" LCD

Music: Yamaha RX-V863 | 2 X Energy RC-70 | MA RXw12 Sub

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post #10 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I could possibly stretch my budget to $800 dollars (not sure if I can get two LMS Ultra's for that?) for the drivers and then put off purchasing the amp for a while.

$800 will get you one of my signature and a Bash 500 amp... the highpass would need to be altered on the amp, though, to get the most out of the design. A little bit of a challenging build for a first time project, though.

How big is the room you're looking to fill, and is it open to others?
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post #11 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

TRIO12 kit is $400 with amp/driver/passive radiators/hardware. I got these numbers in a 24" box at 1 meter, corner loaded. Amp has high-pass built into it approx 18.5 Hz which explains the rolloff below 20. At the LP, SPL were about 4 dB lower (ish)
16 Hz -- 104 dB
18 Hz -- 114 dB
20 Hz -- 118 dB
22 Hz -- 119 dB
25 Hz -- 118 dB
28 Hz -- 117 dB
31.5Hz-- 114 dB
35 Hz - - 109 dB
40 Hz - -105 dB
45 Hz - - 107 dB
So with your budget, you should be able to do better!

Those are estimated room gain #''s (?)

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #12 of 35 Old 06-20-2012, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok so I now realize that the LMS ultra is not do-able due to the price.
What designs should I be looking into in order to get the deep bass and output that I was use to with my stock MFW-15?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Something like a pair of Dayton dvc385's, each in about 6.5-8 ft3 tuned to 18hz, powered by a behringer nu3000dsp would be pretty nice for your $650 budget.

Well, my original recommendation was for a pair of subs that would each be more capable then an MFW (larger enclosure and more power, with a similar woofer). If you want something a little more intense sounding, how about

18 Sound 21LW1400

O Audio 500 watt amp (use 25hz setting on amp)

6" Port

An 11 ft3 enclosure will be tuned to 18hz with that port.

342


These would be some of the cleanest subs you could get up until the amp runs out of steam. The driver is very high quality.
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post #13 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Those are estimated room gain #''s (?)
No estimates. I used a Radio Shack SPL meter at 1 meter on a tripod, on axis. The values are corrected using the proper values for the meter I used.

HT: Yamaha RX-V565 | 3 X Energy Take FPS, 2 X VS Surround, 2 X Take LCR | DIY Subs: SDX12 APR15 & TRIO12 Dual APR 12's | 47" LCD

Music: Yamaha RX-V863 | 2 X Energy RC-70 | MA RXw12 Sub

Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR

Car: Sony Xplod HU, Xplod 6X9s, Kenwood 4"s, Alpine 12" Type-S, Rockford Amp,...

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post #14 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

what about 2 X TRIO 12 's ?


Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the TRIO 12's? Can you tell me a little bit about them?
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post #15 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Well, my original recommendation was for a pair of subs that would each be more capable then an MFW (larger enclosure and more power, with a similar woofer). If you want something a little more intense sounding, how about
18 Sound 21LW1400
O Audio 500 watt amp (use 25hz setting on amp)
6" Port
An 11 ft3 enclosure will be tuned to 18hz with that port.
342
These would be some of the cleanest subs you could get up until the amp runs out of steam. The driver is very high quality.

That is one huge driver! Looks interesting. Do you know of any existing designs using that driver? If so, please let me know.
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post #16 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

$800 will get you one of my signature and a Bash 500 amp... the highpass would need to be altered on the amp, though, to get the most out of the design. A little bit of a challenging build for a first time project, though.
How big is the room you're looking to fill, and is it open to others?


I am highly interested in one of the bigger subs you built. Does that bigger sub perform significantly better than the smaller version that is linked in your signature? I am about to send you a pm with some questions.



Oh and btw- if anyone else has any driver and design ideas, by all means, please post them up!
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post #17 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the TRIO 12's? Can you tell me a little bit about them?
The TRIO is more of a budget driver that performs well.

TRIO12 features:
  • pressed carbon fibre reinforced paper cone
  • NBR surround, Nomex and cotton spider
  • XBL double-gap motor structure
  • high-excursion low-inductance design (20 mm Xmax one-way)
  • high power 2.25” aluminium voice coil on black anodized split aluminum former
  • 350 watts RMS, 700 watts peak
  • brass shorting ring in the top plate, aluminum inside the magnet
  • proven cost effective stamped steel basket
  • designed to match and work with the CSS APR passive radiators

TRIO12 Data Sheet [ LINK ]


Designs: [ Link ]

HT: Yamaha RX-V565 | 3 X Energy Take FPS, 2 X VS Surround, 2 X Take LCR | DIY Subs: SDX12 APR15 & TRIO12 Dual APR 12's | 47" LCD

Music: Yamaha RX-V863 | 2 X Energy RC-70 | MA RXw12 Sub

Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR

Car: Sony Xplod HU, Xplod 6X9s, Kenwood 4"s, Alpine 12" Type-S, Rockford Amp,...

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post #18 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 09:35 AM
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The Dayton DVC 15($129)is a great bang for your buck driver. Is your MFW driver OK? If so the MFW and Dayton DVC model nearly identical and could be used together in a dual build or build independent boxes and spread out to help with room modes.

The Mach 5 drivers get good reviews too for their money.

Hey whats the excursion look like on that 18 sound in that box with 500w? That driver only has like 9mm of excursion its gotta be gettin close...

I like the Behringer DSP amps a lot! They have high passing and Eq built into them and a slick pc interface. Plate amps are much more plug and play but are more expensive per watt after you need more than like 500w.
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post #19 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am highly interested in one of the bigger subs you built. Does that bigger sub perform significantly better than the smaller version that is linked in your signature? I am about to send you a pm with some questions.
Oh and btw- if anyone else has any driver and design ideas, by all means, please post them up!

Responded to your PM smile.gif

There's no bigger or smaller version, just the dual SDX10 design. I do have a few others sitting in Hornresp, but with no way to validate driver parameters properly nothing is in the works right now. There are alternate drivers that should work in the design if the SDX10 isn't your cup of tea.

One thing I should note - if you were to grab a MiniDSP and EP4000, it would cost a bit more but you'd have the amp for a second one of these. Not too many rooms would be a problem for SPL then.
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post #20 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 12:03 PM
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Wait how is your MFW-15 broken?

the amp is broken?

Why let your perfectly good MFW-15 go to waste? Just get a new amp for that sucker
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post #21 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

The Dayton DVC 15($129)is a great bang for your buck driver. Is your MFW driver OK? If so the MFW and Dayton DVC model nearly identical and could be used together in a dual build or build independent boxes and spread out to help with room modes.
The Mach 5 drivers get good reviews too for their money.
Hey whats the excursion look like on that 18 sound in that box with 500w? That driver only has like 9mm of excursion its gotta be gettin close...
I like the Behringer DSP amps a lot! They have high passing and Eq built into them and a slick pc interface. Plate amps are much more plug and play but are more expensive per watt after you need more than like 500w.


http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=42

It's good to go. Barely breaks 10mm. It could actually handle about 1500 watts in this box before reaching the linear limit of 18mm.
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post #22 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

The Dayton DVC 15($129)is a great bang for your buck driver. Is your MFW driver OK? If so the MFW and Dayton DVC model nearly identical and could be used together in a dual build or build independent boxes and spread out to help with room modes.
The Mach 5 drivers get good reviews too for their money.
Hey whats the excursion look like on that 18 sound in that box with 500w? That driver only has like 9mm of excursion its gotta be gettin close...
I like the Behringer DSP amps a lot! They have high passing and Eq built into them and a slick pc interface. Plate amps are much more plug and play but are more expensive per watt after you need more than like 500w.


http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=42

It's good to go. Barely breaks 10mm. It could actually handle about 1500 watts in this box before reaching the linear limit of 18mm.

Man that is a really nice driver.  I remember reading about it over on Riccis stuff.  It has nice sensitivity although I do prefer a pair of DVCs response, and just under half the price......  Not to mention if his MFW driver is in working order he could use it with a DVC15.  I plotted both the 18sound and a pair of Dayton DVCs for comparison.  The upward angle of the 18sound driver response will require EQ to keep from interacting at the crossover.  Its actually gaining 6db of sensitivity per octave above 50Hz which cuts a normal AVRs crossover slope from 12db/octave to 6db.  Maybe not the end of the world but less than ideal. 

 

 

18SoundandDVC.bmp 2,520k .bmp file
Attached Images
File Type: bmp 18SoundandDVC.bmp (2.46 MB, 12 views)
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post #23 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 05:42 PM
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I agree the DVC's would be a better use of his money, just threw this one out there because he sounds like he wants a fancy high end driver. The boost on the o audio amp will bring the low end up like the graph I posted shows.
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post #24 of 35 Old 06-21-2012, 07:01 PM
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well, if you want to be adventurous, give this one a shot:

sound solution audio zcon18 driver.

16 cubic foot enclosure, 6th order bandpass.

1500 watts of power from an inuke nu3000dsp amp.

115db at 12hz before room gain.

if you want to be adventurous. :-)

362

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #25 of 35 Old 06-22-2012, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

The Dayton DVC 15($129)is a great bang for your buck driver. Is your MFW driver OK? If so the MFW and Dayton DVC model nearly identical and could be used together in a dual build or build independent boxes and spread out to help with room modes.
The Mach 5 drivers get good reviews too for their money.
Hey whats the excursion look like on that 18 sound in that box with 500w? That driver only has like 9mm of excursion its gotta be gettin close...
I like the Behringer DSP amps a lot! They have high passing and Eq built into them and a slick pc interface. Plate amps are much more plug and play but are more expensive per watt after you need more than like 500w.


I will look into the Dayton DVC 15, but right now I am mostly trying to find a good design that will help accomplish my goals of having a sub or two that can go down to at least 18hz and have some pretty decent output in my 14 foot by 18 foot room. Oh and yes, the MFW-15 driver is still good, so using that is always a possibility. Right now, I am considering going with Oklahoma Wolf's design that is linked in his signature, but, if you have any suggestions/comments/advise, then I would love to hear them!
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post #26 of 35 Old 06-22-2012, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok guys, thanks for all of you that responded to my questions. But now, lets cut to the chase. I need design ideas that will suit my goals, which are;
1. Equal or Better performance than my single/stock MFW-15.
2. Goes down to at least 18hz or lower.
3. Has some good output.
4. Ported only (do not like sealed subs)

(Note)
1. I already have an MFW-15 driver that I could use in a new build. I like the Dayton DVC idea as well.
2. No size or shape limitations, no WAF.


Please keep in mind that I DO NOT have any WAF restrictions, the box can be as big and ugly as needed, I just want good, low bass! As far as budget goes, I really don't have a set limit. I would like to keep the driver price to be under $350.00 and will budget another $300.00 for the amp. I have browsed a whole lot of the different threads and design database, only problems are that there are sooo many designs and so few actual recorded results as to the frequency response and output levels, so I don't know which ones to go with. I would love to possibly build a really good sub using my existing MFW-15 driver, then I might possibly look into purchasing 2 or 3 more MFW-15 drivers or perhaps 2 or 3 Dayton DVC drivers to use in multiple subs. Some of the designs I am considering are:

1. Oklahoma Wolf's SDx10
2. LiL MIkes F-20


Like I said above, I am in need of design recommendations that will suit my list of priorities listed above.
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post #27 of 35 Old 06-22-2012, 10:12 AM
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Tapped horn ?

HT: Yamaha RX-V565 | 3 X Energy Take FPS, 2 X VS Surround, 2 X Take LCR | DIY Subs: SDX12 APR15 & TRIO12 Dual APR 12's | 47" LCD

Music: Yamaha RX-V863 | 2 X Energy RC-70 | MA RXw12 Sub

Bathroom: 2 X Energy Take LCR

Car: Sony Xplod HU, Xplod 6X9s, Kenwood 4"s, Alpine 12" Type-S, Rockford Amp,...

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post #28 of 35 Old 06-22-2012, 10:36 AM
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Mine's tapped, Mike's is front loaded with a sealed chamber behind the driver. The F-20 is perfect for re-using that MFW driver, though.
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post #29 of 35 Old 06-22-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok guys, thanks for all of you that responded to my questions. But now, lets cut to the chase. I need design ideas that will suit my goals, which are;
1. Equal or Better performance than my single/stock MFW-15.
2. Goes down to at least 18hz or lower.
3. Has some good output.
4. Ported only (do not like sealed subs)

(Note)
1. I already have an MFW-15 driver that I could use in a new build. I like the Dayton DVC idea as well.
2. No size or shape limitations, no WAF.


Please keep in mind that I DO NOT have any WAF restrictions, the box can be as big and ugly as needed, I just want good, low bass! As far as budget goes, I really don't have a set limit. I would like to keep the driver price to be under $350.00 and will budget another $300.00 for the amp. I have browsed a whole lot of the different threads and design database, only problems are that there are sooo many designs and so few actual recorded results as to the frequency response and output levels, so I don't know which ones to go with. I would love to possibly build a really good sub using my existing MFW-15 driver, then I might possibly look into purchasing 2 or 3 more MFW-15 drivers or perhaps 2 or 3 Dayton DVC drivers to use in multiple subs. Some of the designs I am considering are:

1. Oklahoma Wolf's SDx10
2. LiL MIkes F-20


Like I said above, I am in need of design recommendations that will suit my list of priorities listed above.

If you don't buy the DVC best to sell the MFW and use the funds toward more of whatever you buy, or upgrade quality IMO.  The MFW and DVC are both made by Eminence and for the most part are identical except for slightly different voice coil configurations.  They model identical and would be simple to integrate together.  If you start mixing your results your results may vary.

 

You won't find any MFW drivers for sale, if you do let me know. ;)

 

With your driver budget you can almost get three more DVCs. 

 

OPTIONS:

 

Sealed:

Now, not to derail you off your ported/horn quest, but I will testify that those drivers perform admirably into the single digits in a sealed alignment.  With four your could make it work and would be quite adequate.  Think of it this way.  It takes two sealed to equal the output of a single ported all other things considered equal.  However, sealed does not drop off a cliff below the tuning point so you'll get the bottom ocatave you've never heard.  Four sealed DVCs(or MFWs) would equal roughly two original MFWs above tuning(~19Hz).  Below tuning the original MFWs have virtually no output and the sealed MFWs are typically flat to 10Hz or lower in-room.  I built a pair of dual opposed towers of these here.

 

Ported:

There are many designs out there for the DVC or MFW in a ported alignment.  I cloned the original MFW and its cut sheet and writeup is available here.  The original MFW is a bit complex and on the small side for the driver but since you already have one you might want to use it, might not.

 

Horn:

Lilmike's F-20 horns are very nice.  They are easy to build and have incredible output for the amount of investment.  They do take up a lot of realestate.  Think the size of a standup regrigerator apiece.  I recently helped a buddy integrate a pair of these and they are incredible performers for the money.  Having said all that, they don't do anything below 20......  They require a bit more eq than the other aforementioned options too.

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post #30 of 35 Old 06-23-2012, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

Tapped horn ?


Yes, I would be interested in a Tapped Horn. Can you recommend any designs that will dig down to sub 18hz and have a good amount of output? I am considering LiL Mikes F-20, but, it apparently doesn't go below 20hz. I am not sure how low my single, stock, MFW-15 would go, but I believe that it would go down to at least 18hz. Let me know of any designs you can think of!
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