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post #271 of 353 Old 08-29-2012, 06:05 PM
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you may get a clearer picture if you gate the results, at least on the 1 ft measurements.
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post #272 of 353 Old 08-29-2012, 07:17 PM
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looks like you have a driver polarity swapped? And cd compensation (parallel RC) appears to be out of service (or is mic response rolled off?)
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post #273 of 353 Old 08-29-2012, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

looks like you have a driver polarity swapped? And cd compensation (parallel RC) appears to be out of service (or is mic response rolled off?)

I thought I wired up the polarity correct. I'll switch and retest.

On the mic, I used a Dayton mic with cal file so it should be good. I didn't do anything I know of in REW that I know of to roll off.

On CD compensation, can you point me to the xover on where it is and I'll check the connections.

Thanks, Bill.
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post #274 of 353 Old 08-29-2012, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

you may get a clearer picture if you gate the results, at least on the 1 ft measurements.
Tools->IR Windows

zheka, I'm very new at REW. Do you mean windowing? Maybe 1ms for 1 ft?

Thanks
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post #275 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

you may get a clearer picture if you gate the results, at least on the 1 ft measurements.
Tools->IR Windows

zheka, I'm very new at REW. Do you mean windowing? Maybe 1ms for 1 ft?

Thanks

He means at 1ft you can gate out or cut off specular energy with longer time of flight which may be contaminating your response......  I think :)

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

looks like you have a driver polarity swapped? And cd compensation (parallel RC) appears to be out of service (or is mic response rolled off?)

I thought I wired up the polarity correct. I'll switch and retest.

On the mic, I used a Dayton mic with cal file so it should be good. I didn't do anything I know of in REW that I know of to roll off.

On CD compensation, can you point me to the xover on where it is and I'll check the connections.

Thanks, Bill.

Ya, sharp dippin in da crossova regiun(Austrian Voice).....

 

 

Oh, and maybe pop some smoothin on those puppies?


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post #276 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

He means at 1ft you can gate out or cut off specular energy with longer time of flight which may be contaminating your response......  I think smile.gif

Ya, sharp dippin in da crossova regiun(Austrian Voice).....

How do I gate it out in REW? Shorten the window to 1ms? Sorry, I'm an extreme noob in REW.
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post #277 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 04:43 AM
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Take a look at your ETC graph.  You need to see whats going on with the envelope time curve to see just what you should gate out.  This will show the reflection energy and delay(ms).  Some will prob be too early to gate out.

 

If your not sure about this you might start with 20ms?  What does the jedi masters think?


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post #278 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Parallel RC Circuit?

Bill, is the below what you mean by the CD compensation/parallel RC circuit? Before I start spot checking solder joints, can you please look at how I designed the board to make sure I implemented your schematic correct?

Thanks

Is this the CD Comp Circuit?


Rough Board Layout


Final Board
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post #279 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

zheka, I'm very new at REW. Do you mean windowing? Maybe 1ms for 1 ft?
Thanks

I am by no means an expert so take it FWIW

Yes, I think gating and windowing mean the same in REW

1 ms may be too narrow, you will lose too much info in LF . In general the rule is to set the window as wide as the nearest reflecting boundaries would allow. If your speaker is set at least 1 meter from the nearest wall/floor/ceiling , then 6 ms (1 ms - left, 5 ms - right window) will do. you will lose the measurements below 500Hz or so but everything above should in theory be reflection free.

Here is the good source on the subject


http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/20151-can-someone-explain-gating-response-measurements.html

I hope that the dip is due to the room but chances are Bill is right, something else is in play.

Good luck!

P.S. did you calibrate the sound card?
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post #280 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Noob Testing Part II...

While waiting on BWaslo's input on where I screwed up, I decided to go ahead and test all three speakers. I didn't have a chance to play with the gating, but I wanted to show the "raw" output.

The left channel looks very similar to the center (my first test) in that it has that dip around 1.5k hz. Not as pronounced, but it's there. The right seems to have a slight one around 800 hz. They all seem to trail off after 4k hz. Is that expected?

Again, let me know if you need additional tests/views to diagnose the problem (if there is one).

Setup


All Three Speakers


Left Speaker


Right Speaker
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post #281 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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More...

If it helps, I included the SPL & Phase charts for the Left and Right speakers.

On a related topic, as I go about fixing my out of phase driver issue (I think I have same issue in my left), any tips? Obviously, I'll check the wiring to ensure black-black, etc., but if that doesn't show anything should I just switch one driver?

Left @ 1ft


Right @ 1ft
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post #282 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 09:54 AM
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I can't tell for sure in the photo, but I think the tweeter hot lead goes to the wrong point. It looks like it might be going to the wrong side of the inductor L4?
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post #283 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I am by no means an expert so take it FWIW
Yes, I think gating and windowing mean the same in REW
1 ms may be too narrow, you will lose too much info in LF . In general the rule is to set the window as wide as the nearest reflecting boundaries would allow. If your speaker is set at least 1 meter from the nearest wall/floor/ceiling , then 6 ms (1 ms - left, 5 ms - right window) will do. you will lose the measurements below 500Hz or so but everything above should in theory be reflection free.
Here is the good source on the subject
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/20151-can-someone-explain-gating-response-measurements.html
I hope that the dip is due to the room but chances are Bill is right, something else is in play.
Good luck!
P.S. did you calibrate the sound card?

Zheka,

Thanks much for the insight and link. I'll play around with it.

To answer your question on the soundcard, yes. I calibrated the soundcard (Tascam 122mkII) and used the calibration file for my Dayton EMM-6 mic.
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post #284 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

I can't tell for sure in the photo, but I think the tweeter hot lead goes to the wrong point. It looks like it might be going to the wrong side of the inductor L4?

See if these photo's help. I clipped the loose wires after the photo...

Sorry for my ignorance, but are you talking out which lead (under or side) on the coil? I didn't think it mattered.





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post #285 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 11:13 AM
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the tweeter out is supposed to be at the junction of the two coils at top left in the photo.
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post #286 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 11:21 AM
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Just skimmed the last page so I may not have the information correct, but are you measuring at 1 foot and getting a null? Likely not the polarity rather driver integration. You need to be back around 4 or 5' with speakers this big. Judging by the picture your much closer to the woofer relative to the tweeter at that distance. That would account for the high frequency losses as well.

Set the gate time to 3 or 4 ms with the default windowing.

Edit for driver confusion.
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post #287 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

the tweeter out is supposed to be at the junction of the two coils at top left in the photo.

Bill,

Thank you for your ongoing patience with me. I know I must be very frustrating to you.

So I'm clear on your direction, below are the schematic and board images with the lead location change. Can you please verify I got it correct?

I will rerun the REW test per Tuxedocivic's advice, but I'm assuming this is an assembly goof on my part that needs to be correct, right?

Thanks, again



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post #288 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 11:43 AM
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Yep, wrong side of that coil.
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post #289 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Yep, wrong side of that coil.

To be clear, you agree with my above layout?

Seems odd. I know I'm looking at the schematic too literal (left-right), but it looks like pick up the lead after L4.

Thanks
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post #290 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Just skimmed the last page so I may not have the information correct, but are you measuring at 1 foot and getting a null? Likely not the polarity rather driver integration. You need to be back around 4 or 5' with speakers this big. Judging by the picture your much closer to the woofer relative to the tweeter at that distance. That would account for the high frequency losses as well.
Set the gate time to 3 or 4 ms with the default windowing.
Edit for driver confusion.

Thanks, Tuxedocivic

I redid the three test at 5 feet back, but I'm lost on the gating.

Is gating changing the left and right windows? If so, I set the left to 1ms and right to 5ms?

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post #291 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 12:45 PM
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Oh ya, there you go. Looking at you pictures now that I'm not on my phone, the tweeter out has a coil in front of it. That would knock out quite a bit of high frequency. Change that, but still rerun the sweep for completeness.
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post #292 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 12:46 PM
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No set the left to what ever, like 500. Then the right to 4ms. Keep the mic and speaker away from the floor if you can. Maybe do 3ms just to be sure.
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post #293 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Oh ya, there you go. Looking at you pictures now that I'm not on my phone, the tweeter out has a coil in front of it. That would knock out quite a bit of high frequency. Change that, but still rerun the sweep for completeness.

Thanks. Sorry for my thickness, but can you please verify my above images showing the new position of the positive tweeter lead? It's a PITA to open up the boxes (pink wonderland) and I don't want to have to repeat.
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post #294 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 12:57 PM
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I don't know much about schematics but that also looks weird to me. Why would it go in between the coils when it shows in the schematic its after? Unless the schematic is wrong...?

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post #295 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 01:03 PM
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It can go in between the coils, or after the coils. Electricity will do the same thing either way. What he has wrong is that it's between the coil and the cap in notch.

Open it up and move the lead to the other side of the coil and you'll be ok. Just as you have shown. Solder it right where the parallel RC and the coils for the notches all come together.
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post #296 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 01:07 PM
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Oh ok, now I see the problem. Thanks.

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350x700px-LL-a3441c8d_NewTweeterLeadBoard.png

You are currently here
seos12eminencexowrong.png
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post #299 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Got it! Thanks, all!!
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post #300 of 353 Old 08-30-2012, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Minor Surgery - Success

Ok. It wan't as bad as I though it would be. A little itchy from the pink stuff, but the fix was pretty easy.

I retested using Tuxedocivic REW advice (thanks!) and had much better graphs. I used 3 ms for right window. I couldn't get up off the floor, so its the same for now.

Across the board, you'll see much improvement after the tweeter lead fix. Left and Right look spot on. The Center speaker looks a bit wonky, though. I'm thinking it looks more like a REW issue than real performance. Thoughts?

Now time to reEQ the system and listen to the improvements...

Thanks all again for helping me through this!!

Quick Fix


Left @ 5ft


Center @ 5ft


Right @ 5ft
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