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post #91 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 05:17 PM
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You keyed on the main dilemma, do you maximize the height or keep consistent? Until I get an AT screen (not any time soon), I'll aways have this problem. .

I looked more closely at the AT options and it turns out that there are some I can actually afford. I am buying Seymour Center stage XD fabric and will use my existing frame. For the screen of your size the cost of the material would probably be under $300. JFYI.
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post #92 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 07:12 PM
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doesn't dr. g. use a bedsheet? with success?

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post #93 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 07:34 PM
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doesn't dr. g. use a bedsheet? with success?
i remember reading this in one of his posts but somehow never had the nerve to ask for details. i am intimidated by the guy.

i prefer to take his ideas a la carte though. e.g. i use the multisub technique but i do not always run the mains full range, sometimes I get better results with subs crossed over,and I rely on Audyssey for EQ.
Another diversion is that I like my subs to go low, somehow bandpassed subs with 40Hz hpf do not seem appealing to me.

his bedsheet preference is in the same category. i strongly suspect that I would like the center stage xd much better.
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post #94 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 07:56 PM
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actually since I am going to tear my screen apart any way I can as well try the bedsheet screen first....

thank you for the idea wink.gif
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post #95 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
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"i remember reading this in one of his posts but somehow never had the nerve to ask for details. i am intimidated by the guy."

aw man, that sucks. never be intimidated to ask a question.

my understanding is that bed sheets come in different thread type and thread count. i don't know what works best or how it compares to other options. my gut tells the higher thread count sheets are better for the video and the lower thread count are better for audio, but i don't know how to advise in making the tradeoff. if you find a couple of good links, please post them, as more than the two of us are curious about his one.

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post #96 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 09:15 PM
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post #97 of 353 Old 07-06-2012, 09:48 PM
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thank you.

i also found this post by pjpoes. apparently the recommended thread count is 150 . unfortunately i could not find his test results for the sheets specifically. among commercial products he seem to favor en4k for acoustic properties.
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post #98 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 01:31 AM
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You guys should check out the DIY Screen Section of the forum. I had been using Sheerweave 4500 for a long while but, had a bit of moire because I didn't cut the screen from a diagonal section of the material. I was about to get the Center Stage XD but, I needed to check what was going on on the Diy screen section first. Spandex and Ponte materials (new to me) is what people have been using with good results. I bought some Moleskin matte silver spandex from Spandexworld. I like it so far and around $45 is not bad for new material and shipping.
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post #99 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 06:59 AM - Thread Starter
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ah crap, now we'll probably have half the people going for the 'upgraded resister set' even though it isn't needed.

Damn it, LTD. Quit giving away all my marketing secrets. wink.gif
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post #100 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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I looked more closely at the AT options and it turns out that there are some I can actually afford. I am buying Seymour Center stage XD fabric and will use my existing frame. For the screen of your size the cost of the material would probably be under $300. JFYI.

Cool, Zheka, Where did you find just the material? Any idea what the mounting hardware looks like?

I went the semi-DIY route on the screen and had to upgrade (Carada). I kept having wrinkles with the DIYish approach and it drove me crazy. Absolutely love the Carada. The screen material is semi-elastic so it is very tight against the frame. 0.00% wrinkles!!

Beyond cost (which you solved), my other concerns are light bleed, moire, and sound coloration. The light bleed is that the holes let light through (i.e., don't reflect) and will cut into the brightness. Since I've got a pretty big screen (126"), I want to maximize gain (carada is 1.4). Seymour claims a 1.2 gain, though. Moire also seems to be addressed with their smaller pattern. Last, sound can be address with EQ.

So you knocked down all of my concerns. Damn you. wink.gif

Actually, I'll steal one of the images from Seymour's site and say that I've got plenty of DIY projects (this one, surround, sub, rack, hush box, etc.) to keep me busy.

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post #101 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 10:16 AM
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love the image wink.gif

I'd also be hesitant to dump Carada screen if I had one.

Mine is basic visual apex fixed frame screen. Seymour fabric is likely to be an upgrade in terms of PQ.
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post #102 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Success (I think). One crossover done.

First, thanks much to Zhillsguy for help and motivation on the crossover.

A couple of modifications to the original plan:
  • No L-Pad. Given that BWaslo had already dialed in the HF to the 2512, I figure there is no need to adjust. I can EQ it to my room later.
  • Split up terminals. I was originally going to terminate everything into one block, but figured that it was better to use separate terminals (In, WH, LF).
  • Massive Wattage Upgrade. That was for LTD. wink.gif As mentioned, I grabbed some 10 watt resistors while out.

As far as laying the board out, per below, I found out that 10 watt resistors are 2.5x bigger than the 5 watt resistors. I started trying to use a 6x9 board, but I was feeling like the flight engineers from Apollo 13. "All of this has to go into that". So, I wimped out and cut a 6x12 board. Please let me know what you think.

10 watt vs 5 watt resistors [Sorry for blur. Forgot to use macro lens]
323

1st Completed Board
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Update/Edit:

I screwed up the tweeter hook ups in the crossover design. The fix was easy: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417294/seos12-2512-build/270#post_22358387
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post #103 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 03:23 PM
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Success (I think). One crossover done.
First, thanks much to Zhillsguy for help and motivation on the crossover.
A couple of modifications to the original plan:
  • No L-Pad. Given that BWaslo had already dialed in the HF to the 2512, I figure there is no need to adjust. I can EQ it to my room later.
  • Split up terminals. I was originally going to terminate everything into one block, but figured that it was better to use separate terminals (In, WH, LF).
  • Massive Wattage Upgrade. That was for LTD. wink.gif As mentioned, I grabbed some 10 watt resistors while out.
As far as laying the board out, per below, I found out that 10 watt resistors are 2.5x bigger than the 5 watt resistors. I started trying to use a 6x9 board, but I was feeling like the flight engineers from Apollo 13. "All of this has to go into that". So, I wimped out and cut a 6x12 board. Please let me know what you think.
10 watt vs 5 watt resistors [Sorry for blur. Forgot to use macro lens]

1st Completed Board

It's a thing of beauty. Size doesn't matter (in this case). smile.gif
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post #104 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 07:05 PM
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i didn't check the diagram, but overall, it looks like a good layout. inductors are spaced apart and their axes are rotated. there aren't a lot of overlaps where things could short. is this one hot glued?

it is kind of difficult to see the details, did you physically twist the components together before soldering? little details like that might be nice to include in the "instruction set".

the raw network schematics are definitely confusing to the untrained eye. pictures like yours are going to make it a lot easier for more folks to jump in the game at least if/until prefab boards are available.

the first one probably took hours. the second one probably takes 15 minutes. :-)

nice work java!

bw, are there a couple simple tests that folks can perform on their passive networks in order to make sure that they are hooked up properly before "going live"? or are passives the kind of thing that you just hook it up and go? my biggest concern would be shorts. is there a way to test for that without using an ohm meter and just using something simple like a battery?

also, i've seen some boards with tie downs. is that just necessary for the heavy components when they will be mounted vertically?

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post #105 of 353 Old 07-07-2012, 07:45 PM
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I use hot melt glue to hold parts down onto ply boards.

Sorry, I don't have any easy pre-tests. Best to connect to the amps, and start with the volume low, if it sounds reasonable from each driver, turn it up.
Wiring per a schematic isn't hard, just print out the diagram and as you make each connection, highlight it on the diagram so you can tell what has been done and what hasn't and can verify the connections are to the correct parts.

One possible way to simplify is to lay it out on two boards, one for tweeter, one for woofer. You also end up with smaller, easier to place boards that way.

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post #106 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i didn't check the diagram, but overall, it looks like a good layout. inductors are spaced apart and their axes are rotated. there aren't a lot of overlaps where things could short. is this one hot glued?
it is kind of difficult to see the details, did you physically twist the components together before soldering? little details like that might be nice to include in the "instruction set".
the raw network schematics are definitely confusing to the untrained eye. pictures like yours are going to make it a lot easier for more folks to jump in the game at least if/until prefab boards are available.
the first one probably took hours. the second one probably takes 15 minutes. :-)
nice work java!
bw, are there a couple simple tests that folks can perform on their passive networks in order to make sure that they are hooked up properly before "going live"? or are passives the kind of thing that you just hook it up and go? my biggest concern would be shorts. is there a way to test for that without using an ohm meter and just using something simple like a battery?
also, i've seen some boards with tie downs. is that just necessary for the heavy components when they will be mounted vertically?

Thanks much, LTD.

To answer your questions:
  • Hot Glue. Yes. I hot glued down all components. I need to go back and hot glue down the wire connects to keep them from rattling.
  • Wire Twists. Yes. Were I could. In cases like soldering to the negative wire, I could only lay it across and solder. That was actually a bit tricky, since I decided to use 14 gauge romex wire that I had laying around for the negative wire and the connects. The thickness of that wire and fact it would heat up quickly made it a bit tricky.
  • Tie downs. I think the zip ties are for boards (i.e., prefab) that you don't use hot glue. The heaviest piece was the I core inductor and I contemplated using screws to anchor it, but thought the glue would be better. Screws can vibrate loose. In the end, the core is rock solid in the hot glue.

As far as instructional, I found the below videos from PE very helpful in crossover assembly:
As far as testing, I was going to hook up the CD and Woofer to the crossover and check impedance. That should at least show if I made a complete circuit. Correct?

Since my assembly design seems sound, the only other "faults" that would not be apparent in an impedance test would impact the sound, right? So my plans are to do frequency response test via REW on each speaker and compare to Bill's FR plots. Thoughts?

Last, for the fellow newbies, once you layout the comments and start hot gluing them to the board this gets much easier. Obviously, I fretted a lot in the planning phase, but once I had components in hand and started laying them out, it made sense.
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post #107 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 08:21 AM
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"Wayne Parham has a pretty good write up about power handling concerns and the 3pi/4pi crossover designs."
mobeer, bad etiquette. you can't just plop that in a thread and not post a link. :-)
which one were you referring to?

Sorry!

page 62 - http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.pdf
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post #108 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Update.

I finished all three crossovers. I also went back to my first board to double check that I had twisted all wires before I soldered. I was wrong. I had not twisted all of them, so I went back and redid them.

As far as the negative wire, I figured out it was easier to not hot glue it down first. That way I could wrap the leads around them. Image below.

Negative Wire Pre-Solder
640

Another finished board. This one with all wires twisted before soldering.
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post #109 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 12:00 PM
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"page 62"

youch! those are sine wave rms values though. he has 3.3 amps peak going through his tweeter network and even i think that would be ridiculous. "resistors R1 and R2 should each be resistors rated at least 100 watts." that seems a little rich for a tweeter circuit wayne. :-) though he does back that down 75% given spectral content of music and i suppose given his pro audio background, i can understand why he is overshooting in order to make it idiot proof.

java, to my untrained eye, that board looks fantastic! for some reason, it just looks more slick than your first shot. i'd probably use a pair of snips and get rid of some of the extra wire, but damn...that is some good work there.

with just a little help, that is something that folks should easily be able to DIY! another thing is by having all the components pictured, folks can double check against what they get from p.e. just in case there are any fulfillment faux pas even if they don't go for the big resistors. :-)

your soldering looks good too. no big low temps globs. :-)

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post #110 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 12:18 PM
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Update.
I finished all three crossovers. I also went back to my first board to double check that I had twisted all wires before I soldered. I was wrong. I had not twisted all of them, so I went back and redid them.
As far as the negative wire, I figured out it was easier to not hot glue it down first. That way I could wrap the leads around them. Image below.
Negative Wire Pre-Solder
Another finished board. This one with all wires twisted before soldering.

Coming together nicely Java....

bwaslo:

I went and re-visited the out-of-the-box tests of the Delta-12A's. At the time I was focused on Q and Fs which were close to spec. Should I be concerned about the higher Le of these drivers? It is considerably higher than spec (1.3 mh vs. 0.74 mh), and the impedance rises to about 12 ohms or so in the used range (not sure of the xover's cutoff).

Is this significant enough to consider modifying the crossover further? I believe you used the 2512 during design.

Thanks.....

326

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post #111 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 12:24 PM
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No, the crossover was done with an actual driver (not with published specs, which are usually about useless for crossover work). And an actual 12A was used, also, so you should be good. (Measuring is always a good idea, if you can, to check, but I doubt there'll be a problem.

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post #112 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 12:30 PM
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No, the crossover was done with an actual driver (not with published specs, which are usually about useless for crossover work). And an actual 12A was used, also, so you should be good. (Measuring is always a good idea, if you can, to check, but I doubt there'll be a problem.

Thank you sir....I should have known you had all bases covered....... biggrin.gif
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post #113 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Saw Dust Phase

Crossovers are done.

Now it's time to make some saw dust. So, I've got to lock and load on the box design and cut sheets.

I keep bouncing around on the height/depth (width is anchored at 15"). Ideally, I'd like them to be close to 30" so I don't need any stands. I'm thinking my "Option 1" @ 28" and some 1.5" spikes would be the best.

Some question for the veterans (which is basically everyone but me rolleyes.gif):
  • 12" Depth. A 12" depth should give the woofer about 4.5" clearance after accounting for the 3/4 MDF. I know there is concern about the mid bounce, so I will pack that with poly and/or fiberglass.
  • Center Brace. I tried to get the woofer closer to the guide but I need a 1" for the center t-brace. I can't think how else I could get it closer.
  • Insulation and Qtc. I'm right at 2 cu ft assuming .2 cu ft for drivers and bracing. With the 2512 in a sealed 2.038 cu ft box that produces a Qtc of 7.03. So the question is, what impact will adding damping (fiberglass/poly) do to the Qtc?
  • 1.5" Roundovers. I'm going to attempt (after many practice tries) to do roundovers on the sides and top. Is 1.5" enough?
  • Wait for Erich? Should I just wait for Erich's uber-easy flats? Especially the new 3.75 cu ft ported beast he's teasting us with. eek.gif

Updated Box
466


Box Part List

453


Cut List

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post #114 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 04:38 PM
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Saw Dust Phase
Crossovers are done.
Now it's time to make some saw dust. So, I've got to lock and load on the box design and cut sheets.
I keep bouncing around on the height/depth (width is anchored at 15"). Ideally, I'd like them to be close to 30" so I don't need any stands. I'm thinking my "Option 1" @ 28" and some 1.5" spikes would be the best.
Some question for the veterans (which is basically everyone but me rolleyes.gif):
  • 12" Depth. A 12" depth should give the woofer about 4.5" clearance after accounting for the 3/4 MDF. I know there is concern about the mid bounce, so I will pack that with poly and/or fiberglass.
  • Center Brace. I tried to get the woofer closer to the guide but I need a 1" for the center t-brace. I can't think how else I could get it closer.
  • Insulation and Qtc. I'm right at 2 cu ft assuming .2 cu ft for drivers and bracing. With the 2512 in a sealed 2.038 cu ft box that produces a Qtc of 7.03. So the question is, what impact will adding damping (fiberglass/poly) do to the Qtc?
  • 1.5" Roundovers. I'm going to attempt (after many practice tries) to do roundovers on the sides and top. Is 1.5" enough?
  • Wait for Erich? Should I just wait for Erich's uber-easy flats? Especially the new 3.75 cu ft ported beast he's teasting us with. eek.gif

Java, my only comment: for the center brace you can move them closer together. The space between the cutouts for the drivers is a little over an inch for the drivers to be close to touching. I have about 1/4" between mine due to someone's mismeasurement.
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post #115 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Java, my only comment: for the center brace you can move them closer together. The space between the cutouts for the drivers is a little over an inch for the drivers to be close to touching. I have about 1/4" between mine due to someone's mismeasurement.

As always, great input. Thanks, Zhillsguy.

I wasn't thinking about the smaller cutout size.

I played around with a template, and butted the guide and woofer together and it looks like 1" will work. I have to a little careful with the thinner material due to recessed area.

Thanks, again!!

Guide and Woofer touching
400

1" wide board
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post #116 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 05:58 PM
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Looks like your tweeter height will be about 22 inches -- do you usually listen kneeling on the floor smile.gif ? Unless you're on stands, these should be a lot higher (which with give better box volume, too, if you're going for ported). Get them up to ear level if you can, no sense in having all that carefully arranged directivity just to play sound into nearby furniture!

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post #117 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like your tweeter height will be about 22 inches -- do you usually listen kneeling on the floor smile.gif ? Unless you're on stands, these should be a lot higher (which with give better box volume, too, if you're going for ported). Get them up to ear level if you can, no sense in having all that carefully arranged directivity just to play sound into nearby furniture!

Of course I'll be kneeling listening to a BWaslo design. wink.gif

138

Kidding aside, I have a 30" limit for my center channel due to a fixed projector screen. I can take the sides up as high as needed. Obviously my answer is an AT screen, but that's not in the cards for quite some time.

My plan/hope is to get the center as high as possible and angle it back ~ 5 degrees. Again, the sides can be on stands, so I can adjust those.
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post #118 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 06:23 PM
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Need the sides be the same boxes as the center?
Quote:
Of course I'll be kneeling listening to a BWaslo design. wink.gif
dang right!
(I hear the boxes sound better if anointed with Erich blood, too)

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post #119 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

(I hear the boxes sound better if anointed with Erich blood, too)

^ Agreed. Erich, I'd like to change my flat pack finish from 'regular mdf' to 'blood drenched', please. Thanks. tongue.gif

Good work, Java! I think future builders will find your build thread quite valuable. There is also a great soldering series on YouTube, it's kinda antiquated, but very informative. Basic Soldering Lesson 1-9
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post #120 of 353 Old 07-08-2012, 09:12 PM
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re roundovers. noah and i were talking about that in the seos thread a couple of pages back. it is unclear if/how much they matter for a controlled directivity design. for an omni, they matter a ton, hence the funny bubble shape of the top end on the b&w's or the custom shaping around the revel tweets. i suspect that with the seos horn and its nice big native radius inside the horn, you wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the cabinets are radiused. jbl's top of the line synthesis cabs have hard edges at the sides. if rounding them over would improve the sound, i suspect that they would be rounded over. the synthesis cabs aren't the end all be all of cabs, but they have been thought about and improved over the years by some of the best audio minds with carte blanche. they use crazy materials like berylium in their compression drivers, and batteries in their crossover networks to balance out the last bit of i don't know what. point being, they are VERY refined and yet don't use any roundovers at the cab edges. http://elitechoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/jbl-k21.jpg

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