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-   -   SEOS12/2512 Build (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1417294-seos12-2512-build.html)

Java 06-24-2012 01:10 PM

Greetings,

I am starting out on my first DIY speaker build. I would love any input you could give me and hope along the way, I can share some learnings.

As background, I am looking to upgrade my aging 15 year old Paradigm 5.1 HT system. My upgrade options went from Axiom to Klipsch to BIC to SEOS DIY. Basically, I am looking for a "bigger and more detailed" system and a great bang for buck. While exploring the "store bought" path, I came across Erich's SEOS thread and then the Econowave thread. I got hooked. I debated on which DIY path to go (PI, E-Wave, SEOS), but Erich, BWaslo, and the other helpful "SEOS crew" swayed me to SEOS. In addition to SEOS being the "State of the art" for waveguides, Erich also secured some great compression drivers at a great price.

Background Details
  • Listening Mix. Movies 70%, Gaming 20%, Music 10%
  • Room. Fully enclosed. 2560 ft3. 16x20x8
  • Budget. As low as possible wink.gif. I really don't have a set budget, but would like to get the LCRs under $1k and possibly include a sub DIY in that.
  • Skill. 1st time build. I have decent woodworking skills, and have more skilled help, if needed. Decent electronics understanding, but it's been a while since I pulled out the soldering iron. Should be interesting...

Future Plans
  • SEOS Surrounds. I currently have dipoles on my sides and hate them. I'm very interested in wide dispersion, and monopole design of SEOS surround.
  • Sub DIY. Currently have a Paradigm PDR12 (12" 350watt). Early plans are for 2x 15" subs. Maybe Titanic Mark III.
  • Rear/Height Speakers. Depending on all the above plans, I'd like to continue the SEOS wave with rears and height speakers.

Build Decision to Date
  • SEOS12/Denovo DNA-360. No brainer. Ordered 3x
  • BWaslo's Designs. BWaslo has put a lot of thought and sweat into SEOS designs. More designers are coming on line, but Bill has had the most time in planing with the SEOS12's.
  • Eminence 2125. This one was tough. Bill really like the sound quality of the Designer 12, but given this is for a home theater, I feel I need the loudness/efficiency of the Eminence Pro design. My rationale is that while Bill thought the Designer 12's sound better, all of his designs will sound substantially better than my current set up.

That's probably enough background. I'll leave followup posts on the progress and build questions.

Thanks all for your input and inspiration.

Java 06-24-2012 01:10 PM

Final Outcome

Here are the details for the final build and photos of the finished products.

Thanks to all that helped me with the build. I could not have done it without you.

A word to fellow noobs: you can do it.

I would recommend getting Erich's kits/flat packs. This build is definitely doable without, but why do through the hassle if Erich has already put it together for you. Kit link: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seos-speaker-kits/seos-deltalite-kit.html

As far as opinion on the final outcome, phenominal. Night and Day difference from my Paradigms. My goal was to get "bigger and better detail" and boy did I get them. They take everything I throw at them without breaking a sweat. The detail is there. The "bigness" is there. Also, something that is hard to describe, but it all tied together seamlessly. You soon forget about the speakers and just enjoy a seamless stage of music/sound.

Hats of to BWaslo for a fabulous design. Thank you, Bill!!

Last, LTD02 summed up this design far better than I could:

+1...the seos12/dna360/2512/bwaslo crossover network is a really great bang for the buck performer. heck there are even flat packs available for that build from erich's diysoundgroup. speakers of this caliber with three famous little letters in their logo have sold for $1500-$2000 each, so diy it and get far more performance than the average guy can afford to. put the money saved into the subs and the screen and enjoy. :-)

Drivers
  • Waveguide. SEOS12
  • Compression Driver. Denovo DNA-360
  • Woofer. Eminence 2512

Design Source: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=9.0

Part Sources: DIY Sound Group and Parts Express

Final Product [excuse the dust prints...]


Final Box Layout


Box Part


Cut List. Using 1/2 MDF Boards


Crossover-Old. Final Board with Tweeter lead problem


Cossover-Fixed. I had to move the positive tweeter lead. Sorry, I forgot to take a full shot of the fixed board.

Java 06-24-2012 01:14 PM

It may be worthwhile, to readdress one of my decision points. Deltalite II 2512 vs Delta 12.

I couldn't find much background on the Delta 12's, but found a lot of the 2512. Seems to be a tried and true value favorite. Below is my first try at WinISD. My noob eyes see a similar curve between the two, but the 2512 seem to have a 1db lift overall. Given this and what I see as a "safer bet" (given the numerous 2512 builds), I chose the 2512.

342

Java 06-24-2012 01:26 PM

Sealed vs Ported

Given I am building this for HT, I've always assumed I'd be porting the LCRs and subs, but now I don't know. After going through numerous (countless?) DIY Speaker and DIY Sub threads, I started picking up a trend of warnings about porting. Basically, it's fairly easy to design but hard to implement. This is both on a box level and then trying to blend the mains with a sub. Thoughts?

I thought I'd go the "easy/safe route" and go sealed all around, until I played around in WinISD. Am I reading this correct? I understood that the much lower end was extended vs sealed, but that a sub(s) would offset that. But looking at the below, it looks like there is a big gap before sub crossover (80 hz). I realize that the crossover will smooth some of the gap (i.e., blend up from 80hz), but 3.5db seems like a lot to overcome. Seems like porting may need to be added back to plans. Thoughts?

350

So, if I go ported, what should I tune the box at? WinISD set it at ~45hz. Is that a could target? What about future blending with the sub(s).

Thanks!!

cookieattk 06-24-2012 01:37 PM

at the point where u cross the sub and woofer it doubles the output b/c they are cohabiting like in a line array assuming your sub is within 3 feet of the woofer if its not then u wont get the gain but u will also have a few db of room gain. imo i wouldn't worry about it b/c if u have any room correction on your receiver it will smooth it out correctly for you.

LTD02 06-24-2012 01:49 PM

you have chosen good components so are well on your way to a good build.

if you plan to crossover from the mains to the sub at 80hz, then the sealed will work great.

technically your receiver will apply a 2nd order high pass on the mains and a 4th order low pass on the subs.

in order to get them to play the same through the crossover point, both sources need to be down 6db.

a 4th order will be down 6db. a 2nd order will only be down down 3db. so where does the other -3db come from? the natural rolloff of the sealed mains.

so when designing a thx style main (they call them sattelites), you want to use a sealed enclosure that has a -3db point of 80hz. guess what. that is exactly what you have plopped yourself into. nice planning! :-)

mobeer4don 06-24-2012 02:25 PM

No doubt sealed will work. If you go ported, you can move the crossover to the sub to say 60 Hz and use more of the 2512's capability. I like the idea of letting the mains deliver a little more punch/slam (whatever you want to call it) when they are capable of doing it....and the the 2512 is quite capable if you don't try to push it too low. You would need to dig a little deeper into the power/excursion/tuning parts of the model to see what you can (or can't) take advantage of.

I'll admit I'm biased for this type of setup since I'm running ported JBL 2226's for mains crossed to the sub at 60 Hz. I'll also be following closely since I have a pair of the 2510 that should make for some nice surrounds.

Java 06-24-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

at the point where u cross the sub and woofer it doubles the output b/c they are cohabiting like in a line array assuming your sub is within 3 feet of the woofer if its not then u wont get the gain but u will also have a few db of room gain. imo i wouldn't worry about it b/c if u have any room correction on your receiver it will smooth it out correctly for you.

Thanks. I didn't think about the additive effects. Makes sense.

Yes. Future plans are to have 2 15" subs "flanking" the mains (L-S-C-S-R). Short term, I can move my single sub to front stage.

Java 06-24-2012 02:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you have chosen good components so are well on your way to a good build.
if you plan to crossover from the mains to the sub at 80hz, then the sealed will work great.
technically your receiver will apply a 2nd order high pass on the mains and a 4th order low pass on the subs.
in order to get them to play the same through the crossover point, both sources need to be down 6db.
a 4th order will be down 6db. a 2nd order will only be down down 3db. so where does the other -3db come from? the natural rolloff of the sealed mains.
so when designing a thx style main (they call them sattelites), you want to use a sealed enclosure that has a -3db point of 80hz. guess what. that is exactly what you have plopped yourself into. nice planning! :-)

Thanks, LTD02

I guess I did absorb a little (80hz) from all my thread readings. wink.gif

Seriously, I've tracked a lot of your post through DIY Speaker and DIY Sub threads. Always informative and helpful. Thank you.

To that note, as I start planning the sub(s) build, stay sealed? I'm assuming that twin 15" subs should have still have quite a low end kick versus my current since 12" ported (PDR12). Also, from an "ease of use" perspective, Erich's flat packs would make this "stupid easy".

Thoughts?

Java 06-24-2012 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

No doubt sealed will work. If you go ported, you can move the crossover to the sub to say 60 Hz and use more of the 2512's capability. I like the idea of letting the mains deliver a little more punch/slam (whatever you want to call it) when they are capable of doing it....and the the 2512 is quite capable if you don't try to push it too low. You would need to dig a little deeper into the power/excursion/tuning parts of the model to see what you can (or can't) take advantage of.
I'll admit I'm biased for this type of setup since I'm running ported JBL 2226's for mains crossed to the sub at 60 Hz. I'll also be following closely since I have a pair of the 2510 that should make for some nice surrounds.

While I like the thought of pushing the mains, since this is my first build I think sealed will be a safer approach all around. There is always the next build...

To that, I've been eying the 2510 also for the surround. I think the 2510 mated with the SEOS12 would do well. Below is my "model". It is from stgdz' build: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1265019/stgdzs-qscinema-build#post_18951194

450

Also, BWaslo designed an interesting center channel called Malcolm: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=11.0. The lower profile could be a better fit on walls.

335

drewmc 06-24-2012 03:41 PM

May I recommend looking at the Dayton PA310-8 or PA380-8. These both are quite reasonably priced, model will in 2-3 cu/ft boxes, and are very reasonably priced. The few T/S parameter measurements I could find showed good or better than the Dayton specs. I was looking at the MCM pro units, but some of the measurements found on the web were off by a factor of two or three, making them effectively unusable. I have not seen any independent measurements, but the plots by Dayton look honest (not overly smoothed).

zhillsguy 06-24-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Sealed vs Ported

I chose the Delta-12A for the cost savings (the $140 saved can go into the next build) and efficiency. I wanted small boxes for portability and modeled them accordingly.

1.7 cu. ft. modeled at 150 watts with 100Hz 4th order HP, the 12A ported bests the 2512 sealed by about 2 db. It also edges the 2512 ported, but not by as much from 100-200 Hz. Above 200 Hz the 2 db lead remains. Be careful with these drivers, their Xmax and Xlim can be reached easily without filters. At first I was leaning toward very small sealed, but then the Fsc comes into play and I'm not sure how close to the passband it can be.

I really think this is splitting hairs, and other factors are likely more significant for overall SQ.

435

zhillsguy 06-24-2012 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmc View Post

May I recommend looking at the Dayton PA310-8 or PA380-8.

I suggested the PA310-8 here. Hopefully someone can design crossovers for one or both of these drivers, if practical.

LTD02 06-24-2012 04:55 PM

zh, in a sealed application the 12a gives up 6db to the 2512 because of the 1/2 xmax. 106db vs. 112db at 80hz is a pretty big difference.

java, ported or sealed are fine for subs. it really comes down to tradeoffs. big horn > ported > sealed. it really depends on your own goals and constraints as to what is best.

Java 06-25-2012 03:04 PM

Thanks for all the input.

My SEOS12's and DNA-360's have shipped.

Now I have my finger on the trigger to order 3x 2512's, but one thing is bugging me. What about the surrounds? I know I need match the "voice" of the mains to surrounds, but is the "voice" defined by the tweeter or woofer? Or both?

The reason for my question is that BWaslo's 10" design is with a Designer 10 not a 2510.

Ideally, BWaslo will say that the 2510 is interchangeable with that XO design or will create one for the 2510. If not, what would be the impact of going with a Designer 10 for surrounds? I was planning on using the SEOS12/DNA-350, so that should match the voice of mains well. But what about the woofer? There is also a good 7db difference in sensitivity. Will that be an issue?

If this is a show stopper on the surrounds, I may need to go the Designer 12 route...

mayhem13 06-25-2012 04:58 PM

No need To timbre match surrounds. The 2512 sealed is the right choice for the mains. I've mocked mine in 2cuft sealed each and I plan on not high passing them at all, rather letting them overlapp the subwoofers as per Geddes.

Wanna build some budget saving subs?.....check out the Infinity reference series 1260's or 1262's if you want to do 2 drivers per box. Great power handling, excursion and extension at a price that's hard to beat.

Java 06-25-2012 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

No need To timbre match surrounds. The 2512 sealed is the right choice for the mains. I've mocked mine in 2cuft sealed each and I plan on not high passing them at all, rather letting them overlapp the subwoofers as per Geddes.
Wanna build some budget saving subs?.....check out the Infinity reference series 1260's or 1262's if you want to do 2 drivers per box. Great power handling, excursion and extension at a price that's hard to beat.

Thanks, Mayhem. I researched a bit on the Geddeis' overlap and couldn't find anything. Could you please point me to the concept?

On the Infinities, huge deal: http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1260w-1200-watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AVGEO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340670071&sr=8-1&keywords=Infinity+reference+series+1260. Thanks for heads up.

Did you build them as a dual? Opposing?

zheka 06-25-2012 06:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

I researched a bit on the Geddeis' overlap and couldn't find anything. Could you please point me to the concept?

http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/two-great-articles-on-multiple.html

Java 06-25-2012 07:29 PM


Thanks much!!

Java 06-26-2012 05:33 PM

Update. Ordered 3x 2512's, so the driver chapter is done.

Now it's time to design the box. I'm on a steep learning curve with all the software available, so any input is greatly appreciated.

First, I need to determine the volume. Mayhem, you are using 2.0 cuft, right? That looks what I will use too, but wanted to verify assumptions.

The goal is to get Qtc close to .707 for a flat response, right? If I read below correct, a 2.0 cuft box nails that.

514

Using the box calculator at DIYAudioandVideo, and my goal to be about 30" tall and keeping the baffle at 15" wide (per BWaslo), I get the below options. I'm guessing that the first box (28h x 15w x 12d) is the better bet than the 2nd option (30h x 15w x 10d). The second seem to thin. What is the min "clearance" for drivers? Last, are folks using any floor spikes? I have thick padded carpet over concrete. These spikes add 1 1/2", so that get's me close to my desired 30" with option 1.

Option 1
428

Option 2
398

LTD02 06-26-2012 06:48 PM

2 cubic feet is fine for that driver sealed.

be sure to build a rock solid enclosure and line it with fiberglass or equivalent.

Java 06-27-2012 09:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

2 cubic feet is fine for that driver sealed.
be sure to build a rock solid enclosure and line it with fiberglass or equivalent.

Thanks, LTD.

As far a "rock solid", I'm planning on using 3/4 MDF and some simple bracing like Digital_Chris did in his E-Wave Build. Given feedback from BWaslo that I don't need to rear mount the woofer (he designed the drivers to be on same plane), I'm think Chris' first models (before he rear mounted) should work for me. Pictures of Chris' build below.

Is the T-bracing enough with 3/4" MDF? Need battens?

Also, he surfaced mounted vs flush mounted the WG/Woofer. BWaslo also did this in his "test mule". Safe to go surface mount?

Thanks!

Digital_Chris' E-Wave Build
400

Digital_Chris' E-Wave Build
700

Digital_Chris' E-Wave Build
400

bwaslo 06-27-2012 09:54 AM

Mine were flush mount. But it shouldnt matter much. If you can manage large roundovers on the sides and top, do it

Java 06-27-2012 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Mine were flush mount. But it shouldnt matter much. If you can manage large roundovers on the sides and top, do it

Hey, Bill

Sorry. I guess I misinterpreted your cabinet shot. It looked surface mount to me. Do you remember how deep the recess was? Thanks

SEOS12 with Eminence 12 Pro Woofers
446

bwaslo 06-27-2012 11:52 AM

Nominally 0.35"

Java 06-27-2012 02:45 PM

Thanks, Bill.

Ok. Now for dumb newbie question # 3,291. In your crossover schematic, you have a box around two resistors for the Lpad. I'm assuming that the resistors are for your "permanent" attenuation vs a "variable" attenuation of an Lpad. Right? So, I replace the resistors with an Lpad?

300

As far as LPad, I didn't see an Lpad part # listed in this build, but picked up options in your Designer 10 build: R3: 8 ohm L-Pad (PE# 260-248 or 260-250). I'm assuming either should be cool for this design. Correct. 15watts sufficient?

Thanks, again!!

bwaslo 06-27-2012 03:50 PM

Quote:
So, I replace the resistors with an Lpad?
Yup, if you want the level adjustable (a good idea should anyone try a different woofer). Or you can use fixed resistors.
15W should be ok on the L-Pad unless you plan to really blast it.

Java 06-27-2012 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Quote:
So, I replace the resistors with an Lpad?
Yup, if you want the level adjustable (a good idea should anyone try a different woofer). Or you can use fixed resistors.
15W should be ok on the L-Pad unless you plan to really blast it.

It goes up to 11, right? wink.gif

Ah. I forgot you dialed the tweeter in to woofer already. Did you use the 2512? Any reason not to use that level? Dial into my room with Lpad or just do a general room EQ?

Thanks again for your patience.

Java 06-27-2012 04:32 PM

The eagle has landed!!

I got my SEOS12 and CD shipment from Erich at DIY Sound Group. All I can say is WOW!! eek.gif

The build quality far exceeds my expectation. Both the WG and CD are far heavier and more solid than I expected.

As info, I got Matte finished WGs to limit glare from front projector. They look really nice!!

Here are some shots...

389
389
389
583

LTD02 06-27-2012 05:07 PM

congrats java.

the bracing strategy is fine. ideally the side bracing should meet close to the middle of the sides where the panel is weakest. taking a little extra care to reduce internal reflections and the backwave will give a nice clean midrange.

----

bill, parham mentioned that he couldn't tell any difference in sound with roundovers, so ended up leaving them out of his designs.

on the other hand, geddes and that guy on diyaudio with the call sign patrick bateman swear by them.

have you ever done a "wit/witout" comparo?


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