Looking for a sub to go with a Behringer EP2000 amp 1300W RMS - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 76 Old 07-05-2012, 01:19 AM
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"lol, its more like I have X engine what car should I put it in."

nope, crazy ivan is correct.

it is more like how big is your room, how loud do you want, how low do you want, and what drivers/enclosures do you plan to use.

answering that might make a 100x or more difference in what kind of amp that you need.

for example if you have a lot of space and don't need much below 20hz, a tht or f20 might work. neither require much power. 100 watts might be fine.

if you want to do small sealed cabs with a bunch of subs and need enormous output at 10hz in a large room. 10,000 watts might not be enough.

edit: this new site is very difficult to work. all the adds are slowing me down like nothing before. just a heads up avs.

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post #62 of 76 Old 07-05-2012, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"lol, its more like I have X engine what car should I put it in."
nope, crazy ivan is correct.
it is more like how big is your room, how loud do you want, how low do you want, and what drivers/enclosures do you plan to use.
answering that might make a 100x or more difference in what kind of amp that you need.
for example if you have a lot of space and don't need much below 20hz, a tht or f20 might work. neither require much power. 100 watts might be fine.
if you want to do small sealed cabs with a bunch of subs and need enormous output at 10hz in a large room. 10,000 watts might not be enough.
edit: this new site is very difficult to work. all the adds are slowing me down like nothing before. just a heads up avs.

yeah, but I picked my amp because I want low rumbling at 15 hz... with a ported sub. I already have a 300 W subwoofer right now so I wouldn't upgrade unless it's a big step. I have the exact type of driver im interested in im just not sure what brand to go with.
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post #63 of 76 Old 07-05-2012, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have a suggestion on the MDF thickness for a single 15" sub enclosure? 3/4" MDF or 1" ? Should the front be like 1.5" thick MDF? I will be putting a 1/4" piece of maple wood veneer around the outside of the MDF.
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post #64 of 76 Old 07-05-2012, 12:20 PM
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3/4" should be fine. I doubled up on my front because I wanted the driver recessed further.

Here's what mine looked like:

2.jpg
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post #65 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WagBoss View Post

yeah, but I picked my amp because I want low rumbling at 15 hz... with a ported sub. I already have a 300 W subwoofer right now so I wouldn't upgrade unless it's a big step. I have the exact type of driver im interested in im just not sure what brand to go with.
But if you choose a speaker with a lower sensitivity-then you will actually have LESS SPL than you now have. Is that what you want? Even though the amp is a larger size.

What is so special about that amp? You have to remember that while it may be "popular" (becasue of price) it is still a cheap amp-and the typical buyer did not buy it because of sound quality-but rather for how many "watts" it says-vs price.

Since you say say you have the "type of driver" selected-but don't knwo which brand-what type of driver is it? Will it give you equal or higher sensitivity than you currently have?

Very often sensitivity (REAL-not just the simple numbers as seen on most spec sheets-look for MEASURED response-not just some numbers) is much more important than power. When you get to the upper end-a couple of dB in sensitivity can make a huge difference-while large "apparent" gains in wattage will not produce larege SPL gains.

Remember that it take TWICE OR HALF the power to produce a 3dB change. And that change is the same as going from 1 to 2 watts as going from 10,000 to 20,000 watts.

Think about the difference that 3dB in sensitivity can make at those wattages.

It just seems funny to me to proclaim "I have decided to buy the cheapest amp I can find-what speaker should I go with it to give me great performance". Does the speaker have to be equally cheap?

Now granted-given x amount of money to spend-I would put more of it towards the speaker than the amp. You will get more "quality per dollar" that way-but there are limits.

Since the speaker is worst reproducer of sound in a system-it makes sense to put most of the money in that direction.

So choose your speaker FIRST-THEN see what amp you should get to power it-based on the money you have left over.

And when choosing a speaker-you need to look at REAL low freq cutoff-REAL sensitivity and REAL power capacity. In many home theatre and stereo markets-the numbers provided are very far from REAL.

Danley Sound Labs

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post #66 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

But if you choose a speaker with a lower sensitivity-then you will actually have LESS SPL than you now have. Is that what you want? Even though the amp is a larger size.
What is so special about that amp? You have to remember that while it may be "popular" (becasue of price) it is still a cheap amp-and the typical buyer did not buy it because of sound quality-but rather for how many "watts" it says-vs price.
Since you say say you have the "type of driver" selected-but don't knwo which brand-what type of driver is it? Will it give you equal or higher sensitivity than you currently have?
Very often sensitivity (REAL-not just the simple numbers as seen on most spec sheets-look for MEASURED response-not just some numbers) is much more important than power. When you get to the upper end-a couple of dB in sensitivity can make a huge difference-while large "apparent" gains in wattage will not produce larege SPL gains.
Remember that it take TWICE OR HALF the power to produce a 3dB change. And that change is the same as going from 1 to 2 watts as going from 10,000 to 20,000 watts.
Think about the difference that 3dB in sensitivity can make at those wattages.
It just seems funny to me to proclaim "I have decided to buy the cheapest amp I can find-what speaker should I go with it to give me great performance". Does the speaker have to be equally cheap?
Now granted-given x amount of money to spend-I would put more of it towards the speaker than the amp. You will get more "quality per dollar" that way-but there are limits.
Since the speaker is worst reproducer of sound in a system-it makes sense to put most of the money in that direction.
So choose your speaker FIRST-THEN see what amp you should get to power it-based on the money you have left over.
And when choosing a speaker-you need to look at REAL low freq cutoff-REAL sensitivity and REAL power capacity. In many home theatre and stereo markets-the numbers provided are very far from REAL.

Well I have decided on the TC Sounds LMS-R 15", what amplifier would you recommend with that? One of the main reasons I like the behringer amp is that it is available locally (ontario) for the same price as online in the US, and it comes with a full 1-year hassle-free store warranty and a 3 year manufacturers warranty. If I buy online I basically get no warranty.

The sub I currently have is just a Polk Audio PSW505, if I turn it past half it has like 50% distortion lol. It also drops off hard at 30 hz. It just doesn't hit low, doesn't hit hard, and doesn't sound good compared to what I imagine it is supposed to sound like. It does the job alright but I mean it's only a $200.00 sub.

PSW505:
Frequency SPL THD
20 Hz 65.5 dB 10-12% fluctuating
22 Hz 68.0 dB 10-12% fluctuating
25 Hz 76.0 dB 10.4%
32 Hz 90.2 dB 10.5%
40 Hz 101.5 dB 10.2 %
50 Hz 104.1 dB 9.8%
63 Hz 105.9 dB 10.1%
80 Hz 103.8 dB 10.2%
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post #67 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 09:38 AM
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I don't think it is a huge deal buying amp first as in some cases it can be the higher priced component.. However that being said the DIY community is limited big time on what subs are available to even use... If you don't want 16 drivers.. Options that seem to be available now and in working order seem to be Dayton 15" titanic, JBL w15gti mkII and the 15" tc sounds LMS-R (and the Ultra for 900+ bucks). I bought the 15" LMS-R and have it in a 6 cubic foot box ported at 20 Hz.. I think I'm slightly disappointed with it because it has such a low SPL.. I'm trying to special order the JBL through parts-express right now but not having much luck. There are the 15" apline's out there but the looks of the sub just aren't that pleasing (this is a matter of opinion yes).

The JL audio 12w7 and 13w7 actually seem to model pretty closely but if you want to buy from a "legit" online vendor be prepared to spend 700+ bucks on 1 driver. Not sure when the 18" obsidian drivers are available and while they seem like a good deal they require a decent sized box. From some of the things I've read online the eD drivers seem to have some long term reliability concerns (take this for what is it worth though).

Where is the 15" (or maybe even 18") priced around 300-500 bucks (in the states) that is available now and have an SPL >90 and can work in a 6 to 8 cubic foot box around 20 to 30 Hz? I'd like it to be able to handle around 800 watts if not more.. Maybe I'm just being too picky but I'm trying to find a sub in that sweet spot..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

But if you choose a speaker with a lower sensitivity-then you will actually have LESS SPL than you now have. Is that what you want? Even though the amp is a larger size.
What is so special about that amp? You have to remember that while it may be "popular" (becasue of price) it is still a cheap amp-and the typical buyer did not buy it because of sound quality-but rather for how many "watts" it says-vs price.
Since you say say you have the "type of driver" selected-but don't knwo which brand-what type of driver is it? Will it give you equal or higher sensitivity than you currently have?
Very often sensitivity (REAL-not just the simple numbers as seen on most spec sheets-look for MEASURED response-not just some numbers) is much more important than power. When you get to the upper end-a couple of dB in sensitivity can make a huge difference-while large "apparent" gains in wattage will not produce larege SPL gains.
Remember that it take TWICE OR HALF the power to produce a 3dB change. And that change is the same as going from 1 to 2 watts as going from 10,000 to 20,000 watts.
Think about the difference that 3dB in sensitivity can make at those wattages.
It just seems funny to me to proclaim "I have decided to buy the cheapest amp I can find-what speaker should I go with it to give me great performance". Does the speaker have to be equally cheap?
Now granted-given x amount of money to spend-I would put more of it towards the speaker than the amp. You will get more "quality per dollar" that way-but there are limits.
Since the speaker is worst reproducer of sound in a system-it makes sense to put most of the money in that direction.
So choose your speaker FIRST-THEN see what amp you should get to power it-based on the money you have left over.
And when choosing a speaker-you need to look at REAL low freq cutoff-REAL sensitivity and REAL power capacity. In many home theatre and stereo markets-the numbers provided are very far from REAL.
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post #68 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeciccarelli View Post

I don't think it is a huge deal buying amp first as in some cases it can be the higher priced component.. However that being said the DIY community is limited big time on what subs are available to even use... If you don't want 16 drivers.. Options that seem to be available now and in working order seem to be Dayton 15" titanic, JBL w15gti mkII and the 15" tc sounds LMS-R (and the Ultra for 900+ bucks). I bought the 15" LMS-R and have it in a 6 cubic foot box ported at 20 Hz.. I think I'm slightly disappointed with it because it has such a low SPL.. I'm trying to special order the JBL through parts-express right now but not having much luck. There are the 15" apline's out there but the looks of the sub just aren't that pleasing (this is a matter of opinion yes).
The JL audio 12w7 and 13w7 actually seem to model pretty closely but if you want to buy from a "legit" online vendor be prepared to spend 700+ bucks on 1 driver. Not sure when the 18" obsidian drivers are available and while they seem like a good deal they require a decent sized box. From some of the things I've read online the eD drivers seem to have some long term reliability concerns (take this for what is it worth though).
Where is the 15" (or maybe even 18") priced around 300-500 bucks (in the states) that is available now and have an SPL >90 and can work in a 6 to 8 cubic foot box around 20 to 30 Hz? I'd like it to be able to handle around 800 watts if not more.. Maybe I'm just being too picky but I'm trying to find a sub in that sweet spot..

How big is your room and how close are you to the sub? My room is relatively small and the sub is 2-3 feet away from ideal listening position so I'm not super concerned about SPL. What amp do you use? and what SPL do you get off it?
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post #69 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 09:58 AM
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I bought the ep4000.. my room is in my basement (has drywall all around) and is around 14'x24'x8' but is in an L shape (back of the room goes off to the side a bit).. The sub right now is in the front of the room and is about 8 feet from the listening position. Because of the lower SPL you really need to crank on the amp for the 15" LMS-R.

I should mention I also own a crown xls 1500 powering a JL 10W7 (sealed) and an EPIC 10" (sealed) and it performs just as well as the ep4000 in mono and weighs about 1/4 less. If I were to get the JBL I would buy another xls 1500 and NOT another ep4000. Guitar center has some factory refurbed ones on sale now for 299 (they are a pretty big brick and mortar store in the states).

Overall the LMS-R performs but I think with the wattage you end up throwing at it I would get more out of it.. I don' thave an SPL meter just yet but I might pick one up at Radio Shack. BTW the crown is on my upstairs system hooked up to my normal TV.. the LMS-R is in my basement for the projector setup....
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post #70 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeciccarelli View Post

I bought the ep4000.. my room is in my basement (has drywall all around) and is around 14'x24'x8' but is in an L shape (back of the room goes off to the side a bit).. The sub right now is in the front of the room and is about 8 feet from the listening position. Because of the lower SPL you really need to crank on the amp for the 15" LMS-R.
I should mention I also own a crown xls 1500 powering a JL 10W7 (sealed) and an EPIC 10" (sealed) and it performs just as well as the ep4000 in mono and weighs about 1/4 less. If I were to get the JBL I would buy another xls 1500 and NOT another ep4000. Guitar center has some factory refurbed ones on sale now for 299 (they are a pretty big brick and mortar store in the states).
Overall the LMS-R performs but I think with the wattage you end up throwing at it I would get more out of it.. I don' thave an SPL meter just yet but I might pick one up at Radio Shack. BTW the crown is on my upstairs system hooked up to my normal TV.. the LMS-R is in my basement for the projector setup....

A big difference between your set-ups is that the LMS-R is on a cement floor and the JL and EPIC aren't so you get way more floor vibration/rumble? can anyone comment on this? So are you saying that you would turn your LMS-R up more if you could? Or you're just saying that you have to turn it up a lot to get it where you want it?

Have you ever heard just standard 300W store-bought subs like the PSW505 or similar? How does the LMS-R and ep4000 combo compare to one of those? a bit better, or night and day difference?
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post #71 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 10:57 AM
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well I have carpet down in the basement so keep that in mind.. Not sure why I'm not getting the most out of the LMS-R..

I'm saying
1) I have it near clipping, the lights dim a bit (yes, I am thinking of getting a separate line installed just for the amp, 20 amp)
2) I wish It was a bit louder..

Perhaps because it is tuned to 20 Hz and I'm looking for a bit higher? Not sure.. On Blu-ray movies I can feel the air the sub is moving sometimes (yes that much air) but I don't really feel the bass too much.. To me it seems like I need another sub in the room (which because of the size of the room i probably do). So I'm leaning towards getting a different sub and adding another amp.

I should also probably get an EQ in the near future as the very low end stuff (on blu-ray) seems to really take the sub to its limits...
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post #72 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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well I have carpet down in the basement so keep that in mind.. Not sure why I'm not getting the most out of the LMS-R..
I'm saying
1) I have it near clipping, the lights dim a bit (yes, I am thinking of getting a separate line installed just for the amp, 20 amp)
2) I wish It was a bit louder..
Perhaps because it is tuned to 20 Hz and I'm looking for a bit higher? Not sure.. On Blu-ray movies I can feel the air the sub is moving sometimes (yes that much air) but I don't really feel the bass too much.. To me it seems like I need another sub in the room (which because of the size of the room i probably do). So I'm leaning towards getting a different sub and adding another amp.
I should also probably get an EQ in the near future as the very low end stuff (on blu-ray) seems to really take the sub to its limits...

2 ohm stereo or 4 ohm bridged?

you've got me thinking of going to 2 daytons....
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post #73 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know how 2 Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm would hold up in 4 ohm stereo off a ep4000 in a 6 cubic foot ported box tuned at like 18?
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post #74 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 11:28 AM
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I have the ep4000 bridged mono going to 4 ohms.. I dont really know if I would want do 2 ohm stereo.. I guess I could try but I would have to rewire the sub internally and add another terminal outside. Unfortunately I have no first hand experience with the dayton's but for the price and how well they model it seems like it would be better than 1 LMS-R... I'm not a big fan of the dustcap otherwise I think I would have went with them to start (course I'd probably be kicking myself thinking the LMS-R would have been better, yada yada yada, grass is never greener ... ) Course I am really thinking of getting the JBL and the dustcap on that looks like it is from a kickbutt 1980's boombox, HECK YEAH!

That's why I said above about what a poor choice of options for subs we have as DIY's right now...
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post #75 of 76 Old 07-06-2012, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeciccarelli View Post

I have the ep4000 bridged mono going to 4 ohms.. I dont really know if I would want do 2 ohm stereo.. I guess I could try but I would have to rewire the sub internally and add another terminal outside. Unfortunately I have no first hand experience with the dayton's but for the price and how well they model it seems like it would be better than 1 LMS-R... I'm not a big fan of the dustcap otherwise I think I would have went with them to start (course I'd probably be kicking myself thinking the LMS-R would have been better, yada yada yada, grass is never greener ... ) Course I am really thinking of getting the JBL and the dustcap on that looks like it is from a kickbutt 1980's boombox, HECK YEAH!
That's why I said above about what a poor choice of options for subs we have as DIY's right now...

what size is the box your LMS-R is in? ported or sealed and whats it tuned at?
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post #76 of 76 Old 07-08-2012, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have ordered both the Behringer ep4000 and LMS-R 15" smile.gif
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