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post #1 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone here designed and/or built a clone of the Seaton Submersive HP subwoofer? If so I am curious of your driver and amp selection. With the help of Jinjuku I am getting ready to begin my first DIY sub build. The Submersive HP (two of them) was my choice when I was planning to purchase a commercial sub.

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #2 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 06:23 AM
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Just an FYI of two of the ideas we have been kicking around (both are within budget):

Anchoring the amplification side of things is the Behringer iNuke 3000 DSP which Behringer has spec'd at 1000 WPC at 2 Ohm.

The first idea which is closest to the Submersive (which I believe is a sealed design?) dual eDesign Audio 190v.2 each in their own 4.5 cubic foot sealed enclosure. The other has two variants: either two Dual opposed Infinity Reference 126Xw in 3.0 cubic foot box (the under budget option) or a total of four dual opposed (putting us back at budget). Figure $1500 tops.

Space is 11K cubic feet.

So there you have it right now either two 18" sealed with 2Kwatt of power or eight 12" drivers with 2Kwatt of power. Entertaining all other possibilities (I am a bit dubious on Mach5 audio as far as consistent availability).

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post #3 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 06:46 AM
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huh

$1500 for driver an amps?

What about 15" drivers?
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post #4 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

huh
$1500 for driver an amps?
What about 15" drivers?

Just looking for any recommendations that will help maximize the budget. I modeled a few about about 3X the cost of the Infinity's to maybe get another 2dB of output. Not a good trade off. The 126Xw's are simply going to be hard to beat.

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post #5 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 08:54 AM
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post #6 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 08:58 AM
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Ricci has recommended the Alpine 12 inch drivers which are selling for $53 each at amazon right now. One bridged EP-4000 and 16 of those would put you under budget!

Yamaha RX-A2030
speakers- 9 Behringer B215XL's
subs- SI 18ht x12 IB powered by Sanway FP14K.
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post #7 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Ricci has recommended the Alpine 12 inch drivers which are selling for $53 each at amazon right now. One bridged EP-4000 and 16 of those would put you under budget!

link?

Ricci recommended the type-R and theyre still $100+ on amazon.
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post #8 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 09:16 AM
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Let me find it, it was in another thread, hang on

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post #9 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 09:19 AM
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oops, never mind, it was the Infinity driver, not Alpine.

http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1260w-1200-watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AVGEO/ref=pd_cp_e_0/190-3323293-3244033

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post #10 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 09:20 AM
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Here's a superbly detailed, dual opposed 15" build, by a great contributor that we don't see much of anymore.

Also, another nice build, utilizing one of my favorite sub 15" drivers, the JBL-GTI-MKI 15's. The magnetic design of these drivers is fascinating, and they incorporate a significant amount of research from the giant of the industry. So many drivers come and go, these on the other hand have been availed to the enthusiast for a while.

Also, examine Bosso's contributions. He feels strongly that the 15" drive unit is the sweet spot for the DIY execution of a subwoofer. Whether you pursue his approaches or not, the contributions he's made to this community's collective knowledge are greatly appreciated.



Best of luck

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #11 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 09:31 AM
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The JBL W15Gti are too expensive imo. Theyre good drivers but they ought to be for the price.. theyre almost as expensive as an LMS-R 15"

The AV15H will prob never be available again.

15" dual opposed are pretty simple, just slap two drivers at either side of a decent cabinet.
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post #12 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 10:33 AM
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Submersive
316

Dual Titanic 15" in 6ft3 total
234


Wire for 2 ohms, use an EP4000 (single channel) and a Mini DSP to apply the EQ shown on the model. The Inuke Behringer amps can not EQ below 20hz. You could build a pair of these subs for under $1500.
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post #13 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 10:54 AM
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Low shelving the bass to extend in room response is usually done above 20 hz right?
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post #14 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:22 AM
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The submersive has a very small enclosure for a pair of 15"s, with extension like the posted graph there is definitely boost being applied below 20hz.
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post #15 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Jay1- Thanks for the information. Could you please explain to me what the graphs represent? Do they show the DIY to be a better performer than the submersive?

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #16 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Jay1- Thanks for the information. Could you please explain to me what the graphs represent? Do they show the DIY to be a better performer than the submersive?

It just shows what I did with EQ to match the response curve of the submersive. One of these should be close to the performance of a single original submersive. The submersive likely has higher quality drivers then the titanic's.
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post #17 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

oops, never mind, it was the Infinity driver, not Alpine.
http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1260w-1200-watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AVGEO/ref=pd_cp_e_0/190-3323293-3244033

LOL. I kinda started the recent 126Xw craze... It's just hard to beat the driver in many an iteration.

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post #18 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Jinjuku- What is your opinion of the dual 15" design, proposed by Jay1, relative to the performance expected with the dual 12" infinity's we are contemplating?

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #19 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Here's a superbly detailed, dual opposed 15" build, by a great contributor that we don't see much of anymore.

I don't believe that driver is available anymore and while it does net another 3dB in output (as it should) what was the cost?

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post #20 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Jinjuku- What is your opinion of the dual 15" design, proposed by Jay1, relative to the performance expected with the dual 12" infinity's we are contemplating?

Well my foundational opinion is that $ to dB going down to 25Hz or there about the Infinity is simply not going to be beat. That is taking a budget and regardless of # of cabinet considerations for the price of four 15" Titanics. The $233 that the 15" Titanic cost you can get four Infinities. The four 1260's will simply chop the head off of one 15" Titanic. No other way about it. I would rather spend $250 on the eDesign 190v.2 18".

We put eight 12" drivers in your space with 2KWatt of amp behind them you are going to have plenty of extension into the teens (think 17hz) w/o really any need to EQ. The Achilles heal of the Infinity when going one to one with a more expensive driver is they don't leave much head room for EQ at the envelope. We can still EQ and leave a limiter in place however. One of the reasons going for the Behringer. But since we aren't price bound we can bunch up on the 126Xw's.

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post #21 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:15 PM
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Well that brings up the question of does the OP want a submersive clone, or a custom solution? No doubt stacks of those infinity drivers are impossible to beat on a purely price to displacement ratio.
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post #22 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Well that brings up the question of does the OP want a submersive clone, or a custom solution? No doubt stacks of those infinity drivers are impossible to beat on a purely price to displacement ratio.

Exactly, how did we go from cloning a twin 15" - high output amp model to a budget 12" - budget amp model? The submersive uses custom eminence drivers and a very solid amp (with DSP). If you want to clone it, it is possible - but not cheap.
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post #23 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:22 PM
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That alpine doesn't model smoothly for home use. Not nearly as smooth as the Infinity. The main problem being a high inductance voice coil. It sure has output between 50 and 80hz however. Two of the Alpines only net about another dB at 20hz.

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post #24 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zora View Post

Exactly, how did we go from cloning a twin 15" - high output amp model to a budget 12" - budget amp model? The submersive uses custom eminence drivers and a very solid amp (with DSP). If you want to clone it, it is possible - but not cheap.

We kind of didn't. I have been working with David behind the scenes a bit. My personal feelings are to still stick with four dual opposed Infinity Reference setups since the cabinets are pretty small at roughly 19" cubed. If we are strictly talking about good output and good sound quality I still don't know what is going to beat this when budget is considered.

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post #25 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Exactly, how did we go from cloning a twin 15" - high output amp model to a budget 12" - budget amp model? The submersive uses custom eminence drivers and a very solid amp (with DSP). If you want to clone it, it is possible - but not cheap.

That was due to my indecisiveness on which direction to go. My original plan, before Jinjuku suggested the multiple Infinity 12" array, was to clone the Submersive double 15".

Now that we are about to pull the trigger on the build I just wanted to make sure that ruling out the Submersive build is the right thing for me to do. I hate the thought of regret. Jinjuku for the most part has me convinced that the 12" infinitys are the way to proceed. My only complaint will be the four enclosures to house the eight drivers. This would be in comparison to a two box submersive solution. However, like Jinjuku explained, I can simply stack the infinity cabinets in multiples of two which would basically give me two (very tall) enclosures.

BTW, Thanks to all for the opinions and input.

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #26 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

That alpine doesn't model smoothly for home use. Not nearly as smooth as the Infinity. The main problem being a high inductance voice coil. It sure has output between 50 and 80hz however. Two of the Alpines only net about another dB at 20hz.

How are you modeling this?

Are you trying to fit xmax into the equation? The alpine have a ton of throw, while i doubt the infinity have as much throw. Xmax for all jbl models seems to be (voice coil height x .8) / 2 eek.gif
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post #27 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 01:08 PM
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How are you modeling this?
Are you trying to fit xmax into the equation? The alpine have a ton of throw, while i doubt the infinity have as much throw. Xmax for all jbl models seems to be (voice coil height x .8) / 2 eek.gif

My concern is the high inductance and it shows. As far as the model shows it's not going to extend smoothly in 2nd order harmonics. It makes it especially iffy we we decide on a higher x-over point with steeper slope for integration purposes. I would have to see a sim where it modeled well. I personally wouldn't use the Alpine in a home setup.

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post #28 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 01:11 PM
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If we really want to talk about a Seaton style clone:

Two LMS-R 15's at DVC at $433 / per (so call it $900). $400 for the Behringer again. That is $1300 plus another $200 for cabinet and finish materials. This gets one sub.

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post #29 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

My concern is the high inductance and it shows. As far as the model shows it's not going to extend smoothly in 2nd order harmonics. It makes it especially iffy we we decide on a higher x-over point with steeper slope for integration purposes. I would have to see a sim where it modeled well. I personally wouldn't use the Alpine in a home setup.

Try modeling these

http://www.alpine.de/fileadmin/user_upload/manuals/car_audio_manuals/SWR-1542D/OM_SWR-1542D_EN.pdf

$200 a piece though...

Can you take a screenshot of your model and show how big the inductance hump is. Most people on here are using drivers with pretty big inductance humps.
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post #30 of 59 Old 06-30-2012, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

If we really want to talk about a Seaton style clone:
Two LMS-R 15's at DVC at $433 / per (so call it $900). $400 for the Behringer again. That is $1300 plus another $200 for cabinet and finish materials. This gets one sub.
Ok- This build makes the $$/dB very obvious. For the price of this build I can have eight 12" infinity drivers, in four enclosures, with the inuke dsp3000 amp. I am starting to see the light come on smile.gif

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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