DIY Bookshel speaker help or suggestions $500-$1K - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 07-10-2012, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking of building a bookshelf speaker.

I have narrowed to" Vapor Breeze completed already
Statement monitor
Jeff Bagby Continuum(DIY)
Jeff Bagby continuum(salk version)

I want a bookshelf speaker that sounds silky smooth. I would only need it to play low enough so I can x-over at 80hz and am most concerned with mids and highs since it would play with a sub. Does anyone have any suggestions? Remember I'm a beginner. Building a nice box would be easy enough, but I'd like to be able to just hook the wires together and go.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #2 of 43 Old 07-10-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

I was thinking of building a bookshelf speaker with one of the following woofers and tweeter. I just have no idea how to design a box or choose a x-over.

That's like 95% of the work - getting the box and especially the crossover workable/correct is extremely critical to the success of any speaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-woofers-6-7/seas-excel-w18e-001-e0018-7-magnesium-cone-woofer/
or
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/seas-excel-w15cy-001-e0015-5.5-magnesium-cone-woofer/
and
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/raal-70-10d-raal-ribbon-tweeter-with-optional-amorphous-core/
I want a bookshelf speaker that sounds silky smooth. Something like the Paradigm Signature line or Salk Song Tower in a bookshelf version. I would only need it to play low enough so I can x-over at 80hz and am most concerned with mids and highs since it would play with a sub. Does anyone have any suggestions? Remember I'm a beginner. Building a nice box would be easy enough, but I'd like to be able to just hook the wires together and go.

1.) If you're looking to "just hook the wires and go", you probably would do better with a kit from PE or Madisound.
2.) Read and research like crazy, and start small, if only to keep the hit to your ego and wallet at a minimum the first time (should you try your own design).
3.) Try to build an existing design in the DIY universe, not come up with your own model based on several hundred dollars worth of drivers, especially the first time out.
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post #3 of 43 Old 07-10-2012, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by templemaners View Post

That's like 95% of the work - getting the box and especially the crossover workable/correct is extremely critical to the success of any speaker.
1.) If you're looking to "just hook the wires and go", you probably would do better with a kit from PE or Madisound.
2.) Read and research like crazy, and start small, if only to keep the hit to your ego and wallet at a minimum the first time (should you try your own design).
3.) Try to build an existing design in the DIY universe, not come up with your own model based on several hundred dollars worth of drivers, especially the first time out.

Yeah I'm probably oversimplifying it. Do you have a kit that you would recommend in the $500-$1000 range? And what would you have to pay to an internet direct company to get something of similar quality? Are you really saving a lot of money?

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #4 of 43 Old 07-10-2012, 06:58 PM
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Like templemaners was saying, the crossover is far to important to be an after thought. They may not use the exact drivers you were considering, but that isn't really important.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W15_Neo3.htm

http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor.html

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html

http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/ER18DXT/ER18DXT.htm

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=usher2way.html

That's just a fraction of the high quality monitor designs out there. You can email www.madisound.com the crossover schematics, and they will price what it will cost to buy an assembled crossover for any design.
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post #5 of 43 Old 07-10-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Yeah I'm probably oversimplifying it. Do you have a kit that you would recommend in the $500-$1000 range? And what would you have to pay to an internet direct company to get something of similar quality? Are you really saving a lot of money?

I've always wanted to try the ER18DXT or Statement Monitors that Jay linked to above. The Idunn kit at Madisound is also something I'd like to try (same tweeter as the ER18DXT):

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/seas-idunn-2-way-speaker-kit-pair-complete/

Here's another list of some completed designs, in all shapes, sizes, and costs.
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655

I'm not sure if there's a TON of savings compared to an Internet direct supplier, especially if you have to buy tools and measurement equipment (vital to have if you make your own from scratch). Finishing the cabinet is also another cost, unless you like raw MDF or plywood. eek.gif You also have to factor in how much you value your time to spend making them. Being a hobby, most people would say your labor is free in this instance. smile.gif

So, what I'm trying to say is, I wouldn't necessarily go into this as a money saving proposition.
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post #6 of 43 Old 07-11-2012, 08:49 AM
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post #7 of 43 Old 07-11-2012, 08:53 AM
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First off, here's the master list. Yes it's overwhealming, but if you're looking for specific drivers, you need a lot of places to look!
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?211558-Links-to-existing-DIY-speaker-designs

Second, +1 to templemaners suggestion #3 - find a proven design that meets you needs is the most cost- and quality-effective option.

If you are shopping on price alone, you'll do better with low end commercial. DIY can't beat economies of scale until you're into the custom realm, and then DIY is far cheaper unless you count your time.

If you want to learn how to design speakers, go here and read the "Using Tools Together" link to see how Roman Bednarek goes about designing speakers. Note that some of the tool links (eg. Unibox) are broken...
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm

Finally, since you mention Salk bookshelf designs, let me point you to one of the sweetest designs out there:
http://www.salksound.com/continuum%20-%20home.htm
and for us DIYers
http://meniscusaudio.com/continuum-pr-p-1324.html
finally a recent discussion of the speaker...
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?229141-Continuum-late-commers-and-questions

It also makes a very nice top to the Anarchy tapped horn sub.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1238398/reed-exodus-anarchy-25hz-tapped-horn/0_100

Have fun,
Frank
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post #8 of 43 Old 07-11-2012, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbov View Post

First off, here's the master list. Yes it's overwhealming, but if you're looking for specific drivers, you need a lot of places to look!
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?211558-Links-to-existing-DIY-speaker-designs
Second, +1 to templemaners suggestion #3 - find a proven design that meets you needs is the most cost- and quality-effective option.
If you are shopping on price alone, you'll do better with low end commercial. DIY can't beat economies of scale until you're into the custom realm, and then DIY is far cheaper unless you count your time.
If you want to learn how to design speakers, go here and read the "Using Tools Together" link to see how Roman Bednarek goes about designing speakers. Note that some of the tool links (eg. Unibox) are broken...
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm
Finally, since you mention Salk bookshelf designs, let me point you to one of the sweetest designs out there:
http://www.salksound.com/continuum%20-%20home.htm
and for us DIYers
http://meniscusaudio.com/continuum-pr-p-1324.html
finally a recent discussion of the speaker...
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?229141-Continuum-late-commers-and-questions
It also makes a very nice top to the Anarchy tapped horn sub.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1238398/reed-exodus-anarchy-25hz-tapped-horn/0_100
Have fun,
Frank

The Jeff Bagbt or the statements look like something I would like to try. Without reading through pages and pages of threads....is there anything out there that would show step by step for how to put them together? How to assemble the crossover and the plans for the box. As you can tell I'm very fresh. I want to give this a shot and I want to make my first attempt at something that is quality. I would be willing to take my time to do it right, but I learn best when I can see it planed out nicely. Do this, this and this. Cut hole here...make box this tall and etc. Maybe wishful thinking but thought I would ask. If not, then I will buckle down and read. But if there is a clear cut guide to either of these designs that would be awesome. Thanks for all of your time answering my questions. I envy those of you with the "know how" and skill to whip something like that up without much guidance.

http://meniscusaudio.com/continuum-pr-p-1324.html

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #9 of 43 Old 07-11-2012, 07:22 PM
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Not DIY, but this liquidation that Danny is doing for another company looked interesting--the little monitors are very reasonable and look very well made

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106334.0
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post #10 of 43 Old 07-11-2012, 09:45 PM
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Again, not DIY but I'd go for the Vapor Audio Breeze, a tad over your budget though well worth it.

http://www.vaporsound.com/#all

Top notch speaker, using too notch drivers. The pair would almost cost that much if you bought the parts yourself, but come in beautiful cabinets.

Dan
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post #11 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

Again, not DIY but I'd go for the Vapor Audio Breeze, a tad over your budget though well worth it.
http://www.vaporsound.com/#all
Top notch speaker, using too notch drivers. The pair would almost cost that much if you bought the parts yourself, but come in beautiful cabinets.
Dan

I'll offer to do a kit version with the same drivers and save you quite a bit of $ over the assembled Breeze. The problem is that the Nomex cone version of the woofer has been delayed due to a change in the cone supplier. A really good alternative would be the Seas U16 which is an excellent driver for the $. In order to use the 70-10D with a 5" woofer you need one with a smooth upper response that can handle a higher crossover point.

Selah Audio

Thinking Inside the Box...
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post #12 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

The Jeff Bagbt or the statements look like something I would like to try.

The Statements Monitors require at least 12" of space behind the rear of the speaker to operate properly, so they would not be appropriate for putting on a shelf.

If you want something to put on a bookshelf, you need to look for a design that has a 'near-wall' crossover design. For example, if you look at Curt's AviaTrix MT design (Curt also designed the Statements Monitors), he provided a crossover alternative for near wall placement. The crossover modification addresses the Baffle Step Compensation (BSC) necessary when the speaker is placed near a wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Without reading through pages and pages of threads....is there anything out there that would show step by step for how to put them together? How to assemble the crossover and the plans for the box.

Most designers include details on box construction, so once you find a design you like you'll have that info available. They will also provide a schematic for the crossover - you'll need to look on-line for a tutorial on how to solder if you want to put it together yourself. A lot of the designs have a least one build thread on a forum somewhere; while the build threads aren't exactly 'how-to' info, they do have pictures and information about putting everything together. For example, here are some links to my build threads: my AviaTrix MTM build on HTGuide and my AviaTrix TM build on AVS. A keyword search on the forums would probably turn up a couple of build threads for just about any design you selected.

BTW - I used the AviaTrix as an example because the AviaTrix happens to be the design I built to solve the same problem you have (a high quality DIY design to put on a bookshelf). They are under your budget, but excellent sounding speakers. Just so you know.

Chris

"It hurts to admit when you make mistakes - but when they are big enough, the pain only lasts a second."
--Despair, Inc. "Regret"

My AviaTrix TM Build
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post #13 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerParty View Post

The Statements Monitors require at least 12" of space behind the rear of the speaker to operate properly, so they would not be appropriate for putting on a shelf.
If you want something to put on a bookshelf, you need to look for a design that has a 'near-wall' crossover design. For example, if you look at Curt's AviaTrix MT design (Curt also designed the Statements Monitors), he provided a crossover alternative for near wall placement. The crossover modification addresses the Baffle Step Compensation (BSC) necessary when the speaker is placed near a wall.
Most designers include details on box construction, so once you find a design you like you'll have that info available. They will also provide a schematic for the crossover - you'll need to look on-line for a tutorial on how to solder if you want to put it together yourself. A lot of the designs have a least one build thread on a forum somewhere; while the build threads aren't exactly 'how-to' info, they do have pictures and information about putting everything together. For example, here are some links to my build threads: my AviaTrix MTM build on HTGuide and my AviaTrix TM build on AVS. A keyword search on the forums would probably turn up a couple of build threads for just about any design you selected.
BTW - I used the AviaTrix as an example because the AviaTrix happens to be the design I built to solve the same problem you have (a high quality DIY design to put on a bookshelf). They are under your budget, but excellent sounding speakers. Just so you know.

I don't want to put on a shelf...I just want a "bookshelf" sized speaker. Or monitor or whatever you want to call it. I prefer a book shelf over an actual floor standing design. My room is smaller and I sit relatively close to the speakers(8ft)

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #14 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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If it were you what would you go with of the below? I want something that can x-over at 80hz and just immerses you in sound and I don't need a powerful receiver/amp to get them going. I've gotten a lot of recommendations and have made a list of what looks and sound interesting.

Vapor Breeze
Jeff Bagby Continuum(DIY)
Jeff Bagby Continuum(salk version)
statement monitors
this scan speak kit from madisound compare. These

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/scanspeak-rediscovery-loudspeaker-kit-pair

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #15 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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post #16 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 04:12 PM
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post #17 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightp View Post

You've set the bar pretty high in terms of appearance. Do you have much woodworking experience? How are you set up for tools?

I want to pay someone to build or finish the cabinet. I realize I might not be saving much over buying ID if I do that...but I want it to look good(so, I guess that's a no).
Do you have an opinion on the different set-ups I listed? The Salk WOW1 looks interesting too, but I really want to see what the ribbon tweeter is all about which why I'm leaning toward the statements or vapor breeze. I just need someone to verify what they think would be the best value.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #18 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 04:36 PM
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Your budget is a bit off..

RAAL tweeter - 389.00 x 2 = roughly 800
Sea Woofer - 222.55 x 2 = roughly 450

Tweeters and woofers are already at 1250, No cabs, binding post and crossover yet...
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post #19 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Your budget is a bit off..
RAAL tweeter - 389.00 x 2 = roughly 800
Sea Woofer - 222.55 x 2 = roughly 450
Tweeters and woofers are already at 1250, No cabs, binding post and crossover yet...

The guy above listed them as an option so I thought they were in the ballpark. I was looking at the build he linked, but it doesn't list price. Where would you buy the parts to build these at? I can go a bit over. $1000 is where I would like to be, but if it is worth it go a few hundo over...so be it.

http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor_2.html


EDIT: I see where you are at...looks like you didn't actually read through the entire thread. It has evolved quite a bit from my first post after getting some suggestions. My pricing in the subject line was where I'd prefer to be. I'm super new so I'm trying to get as much direction as I can. Since I have never heard any of these designs I'm trying to pick the best one.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #20 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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This is what I want to build. I want this look with the same driver and ribbon tweeter. I found this at Fritz speakers. I could probably build something like this for around $1500? Any idea what design he's using?

fritz.jpg 127k .jpg file
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File Type: jpg fritz.jpg (126.8 KB, 38 views)

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #21 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 07:09 PM
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None of the speakers you're looking at are high sensitivity, so if you really want something that "don't need a powerful receiver/amp to get them going", you might need to consider something larger then a 7" 2-way. Based on these two quotes: "I want a bookshelf speaker that sounds silky smooth" "just immerses you in sound", and your budget, plus need for a cabinet builder, I really think the previously linked Mark K ER18DXT is your best option.

438

It doesnt get much smoother or immersive then that. The green curve is 90 degrees off axis.
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post #22 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

None of the speakers you're looking at are high sensitivity, so if you really want something that "don't need a powerful receiver/amp to get them going", you might need to consider something larger then a 7" 2-way. Based on these two quotes: "I want a bookshelf speaker that sounds silky smooth" "just immerses you in sound", and your budget, plus need for a cabinet builder, I really think the previously linked Mark K ER18DXT is your best option.
438
It doesnt get much smoother or immersive then that. The green curve is 90 degrees off axis.

I do like the price on that and the link you provided gives clear instructions for a beginner like me. Do you know if it is possible to upgrade the tweeter or woofer without changing the box design since I'm a little under budget? Or does that throw the whole design off? I really do like this suggestion, I must have skimmed over it. I don't like the cabinet pictures but that can be adjusted. I might put this at the top of the list.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
.
My humble entertainment room
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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post #23 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 07:59 PM
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If I were going to have someone build a cabinet for me it'd be PassingInterest. Shoot him a PM and see if he would be willing to build and finish one for the right price. Like every other PI thread It would be great for the community as well
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post #24 of 43 Old 07-12-2012, 08:08 PM
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I do like the price on that and the link you provided gives clear instructions for a beginner like me. Do you know if it is possible to upgrade the tweeter or woofer without changing the box design since I'm a little under budget? Or does that throw the whole design off? I really do like this suggestion, I must have skimmed over it. I don't like the cabinet pictures but that can be adjusted. I might put this at the top of the list.

No you cant change the drivers, that is part of what makes a high quality design high quality, the crossover is completely specific to the drivers being used. These drivers are very good performing units, so you aren't really losing much, if any fidelity with them vs higher priced alternatives.
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post #25 of 43 Old 07-13-2012, 02:52 AM
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***I really want to see what the ribbon tweeter is all about***.

That doesn't require a purchase, merely an audition.

Indeed, I think buying something that's likely to sound different from what one's used to without auditioning it first is a recipe for dissatisfaction.

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post #26 of 43 Old 07-13-2012, 06:32 AM
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I think buying something that's likely to sound different from what one's used to without auditioning it first is a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Good advice, not everyone likes ribbons
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post #27 of 43 Old 07-13-2012, 11:42 AM
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If it were you what would you go with of the below? I want something that can x-over at 80hz and just immerses you in sound and I don't need a powerful receiver/amp to get them going.

I think you need to be a bit more specific by what you mean by "powerful receiver/amp". I run my Statement Monitors via my Denon AVR, which is less powerful than the Yamaha RX-V467 in your signature block. If you plan to use the Yamaha for these new speakers, you should be able to drive any of these designs to ear-splitting levels without any trouble. I'm not saying that Jay's suggestion isn't any good, just that you don't need to abandon your previous choices.

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post #28 of 43 Old 07-13-2012, 11:58 AM
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I want to pay someone to build or finish the cabinet. I realize I might not be saving much over buying ID if I do that...but I want it to look good(so, I guess that's a no).

What I have read online - people that aren't building the cabinets themselves would take the plans for the cabinet and some pictures of finished designs to a local cabinet maker and ask for an estimate. That should give you an idea of what it will cost in your area.
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post #29 of 43 Old 07-13-2012, 12:29 PM
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This is what I want to build. I want this look with the same driver and ribbon tweeter. I found this at Fritz speakers. I could probably build something like this for around $1500? Any idea what design he's using?
fritz.jpg 127k .jpg file

Since he is selling it, he is almost certainly using his own design. If he were using a DIY design, it would be mentioned somewhere on his web site. His site doesn't show the drivers he used, but if I were to guess I'd say that the speaker with the ribbon tweeter in that picture was using a Fountek Neo3.0 ribbon tweeter and a Seas Excel w22ex 8" woofer. For two speakers, you are looking at ~$700 in drivers.

The only two DIY designs that I know of that use that ribbon are the Statements and the Lineup R4 series.

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post #30 of 43 Old 07-13-2012, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

That doesn't require a purchase, merely an audition.
Indeed, I think buying something that's likely to sound different from what one's used to without auditioning it first is a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Do you see where I live? There are 900,000 people in the entire state....maybe 3 others that are interested in audio. smile.gif From everything I've read people seem to love the ribbon tweeter, I'd be willing to gamble.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1417652/midwest...
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