Which pa subwoofer driver should I choose and why? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I currently have 2 different pa subwoofer drivers, that I want to make a vented subwoofer with for private parties(where you like, hire a hall out and blast out whatever music you like with your friends),and very occassional disco use, 4 times a year.

The mid/tops will be either the 8 or 10 inch B&C plans. And with top hat mounting on stands,small sized to fit everything into a car, as can't afford to hire out a van. Yeah life kinda sucks being unemployed.

But can't decide which driver to use for the sub drivers that I already got....

I got a Fane colossus 15XB (800w AES continous) new version:
Specs here: http://www.fane-acoustics.com/downloads/FANE_Colossus_15XB_Specs.pdf

Beyma 15K200 (300w rms) ..
Specs here: http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2015K200-1.htm
Seems to have an very heavy magnet for some reason,more than double the weight of the Fane 15XB's magnet.

Fane 15XB frequency response goes down to 40hz
Beyma 15K200 frequency response goes down to 25hz.
Both have 4 inch voice coils, and the same 7.5mm xmax.
Beyma 15k200 has an Fs of 27hz, whereas the Fane 15XB has an Fs of 38hz.
Beyma 15K200 has a qts of 0.26(suitable more for horns,might be able to be used for reflex) wheras the Fane 15XB has a qts of 0.32( suitable for horns and reflex).
Beyma 15k200 has a BL of 20.5
Fane 15XB has a BL of 22.28 (meaning a slightly stronger motor system)

Now the main question is which one to use?

Fane 15XB has much better power handling, but the Beyma 15K200 goes much lower.

The music played will be a mixture of styles such as reggae,dub, dnb,electro house, dubstep, pop, techno, trance, hiphop.
So it needs to cope with all types of music at high volume levels.

Also there is a plan for the Fane 15XB on the Fane website and also heard that the Fane 15XB would work in the B&C Sub15 plans if that is correct?

There are a few Beyma 15k200 plans floating around the internet but they are horn based plans and I'm not confident with cutting complex angles as I've only made reflex enclosures,bandpass enclosures and sealed enclosures before.
And I've only got very limited tools as I'm on a tight budget(no table saw or router or circular saw), just a jigsaw, drill, and belt sander as the main tools.
A few clamps, a work bench,set square,metal ruler, spirit level, a few hand saws etc for the rest of the things.
I could with a circular saw for cutting the pieces though, but will probably have to make do with hand saws and/or the jigsaw.
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post #2 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 01:40 PM
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What is your budget?

Take a look at:

Peavey Low Rider 18 - Best Bang for the buck.
FaitalPRO 18HP1030 - Most displacement for the dollar.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #3 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 01:41 PM
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a single ported 15" cab isn't going to blast some of the genres of music that you like to the level that you want. it just doesn't move enough air.

ignore the "frequency response" nonsense in the manufacturer's specs. the cabinet (along with the excursion and power limitations) will determine how low vs. how loud the driver will play.

for example, look at the silliness in the fane spec sheet. the marketing team calls the driver a "sub bass", but the engineering guys put it in a cabinet that begins to rolloff at 100hz and that is in a cabinet tuned to 55hz! that won't even get you bass, much less "sub bass".

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post #4 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 01:57 PM
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"FaitalPRO 18HP1030 - Most displacement for the dollar."

how do you figure?

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post #5 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 02:14 PM
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How much Xmax does the Faital have and for how much?

The AE TD18h+ has 14mm of rated Xmax and it retails for ~$400. Unfortunately at this given time...it's hard to get. wink.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #6 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

How much Xmax does the Faital have and for how much?
The AE TD18h+ has 14mm of rated Xmax and it retails for ~$400. Unfortunately at this given time...it's hard to get. wink.gif

he has them in stock atm. also 2 in the for sale section. $500 for 2 is good deal imo.
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post #7 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 02:49 PM
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I didn't know they had any TD18's in stock. I was under the impression that they had nothing in stock and that the chinese order was holding everything up.

Btw, I almost bought those two in the classified section. frown.gif I want them....sooooo bad. And yes, that is a fantastic deal.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #8 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 02:54 PM
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^^^^^
He has some 8ohm TD 18 available
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post #9 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 02:56 PM
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Just looked at their forum. You're right. smile.gif

Anyone have about $3,000 that I can... have? tongue.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #10 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"FaitalPRO 18HP1030 - Most displacement for the dollar."
how do you figure?

I made a spreadsheet comparing approx 30 drivers. That FaitalPRO model had the best $/Vd ratio.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #11 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 06:44 PM
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what was your input price for the driver? this is what i was looking at:


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post #12 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 06:54 PM
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No love for 21" subs?

Id recommend a 21LW1400. The xmax rating on it is actually higher than what is stated under testing.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=42

I got one at home powered off a single channel from a FP10000Q clone. It really hammers hard (sorry don't know the scientific explanation for that).

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post #13 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 07:10 PM
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probably just picking up the sensitivity difference, which gives it a lack of power compression at your listening level and a higher max spl.

le/re in that driver is nothing special.

in a ported cab, that 21 is 7+db more sensitive than something like the w15gti in a sealed cab in the passband.

an interesting comparo would be something like 4Xw15gti's against one 21lw1400. yeah, i know, not even close in price, but that would help reveal what is being heard.

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post #14 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 10:25 PM
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I rechecked my spread and had the wrong model number. The Peavey Low Rider has the best $/Vd, the Faital 18FH510 is second in $/Vd. The overall displacement of the 18HP1030 is ~200cc more, and it is third on the $/Vd list. The Ciare 18.00sw is fourth in $/Vd and has the highest displacement of the 18s but at the sacrifice of efficiency, to the tune of 5db lower than the Faital driver. I had eminence drivers on the list, but their displacement across the board is so low in comparison that I don't consider them an option even with high $/Vd ratios.


As for 21s, that is a TOUGH market right now. The RCF LF21N451 is my favorite, followed by the B&C 21SW152 but not on virtue of price. The 21lw1400 leaves a bit to be desired as it requires larger cabinets, and the sound quality I have observed has proven inferior to the RCF and B&C. Most notably in pitch definition, it has a smeared one-notey quality in comparison to the other models.

My problem with current 21s is that you can get a pair of Low Rider 18s and displace the same amount, but save quite a bit of money. If you compare 1 18" and 1 21" in 10 cubes, the 21" wins. But if you have a pair of 18s in 14 cubes, the difference diminishes. For the dollar savings afforded by the pair of 18s, the 21s really start to lose their appeal.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

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post #15 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 10:46 PM
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no worries wi...listen to wi!

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post #16 of 21 Old 07-23-2012, 11:56 PM
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I would look at this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCF-ART-310A-Speaker-Value-Packages-art310a-Powered-ART310-Authorized-Dealer-NEW-/271021888385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1a29d381

I own a pair ant they are awesome. Have built in amps saving space and only weigh 30 pounds. I picked up a used Yorkville LS 720 15 inch powered sub used for $600 to go with it.
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post #17 of 21 Old 07-24-2012, 01:04 AM
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Hi ItchyTasty,

I'm not sure what happened with this thread, by reading your original post, I am lead to believe that you are looking for advice on which of 2 drivers, already owned, you should use, and perhaps some advice on what sort of box to get them into. Either driver will work fine in a properly sized and tuned reflex enclosure that would be portable via sedan, though there may be other more sophisticated options. Unfortunately, in either case you'll probably have to plan on a bottom end limit of ~40hz give or take. You WILL need to set up a high pass filter to protect them if you're going to try to get as much SPL as possible. As far as which driver to pick, I think that will depend on how much amplification you have available and what box dimensions will fit into your car for transport, or, how large you are "willing" to go. There's a good chance that your best bet will just be to stick with a simple small reflex box. I'm sure dozens of folks here will be more than happy to throw out some volume and tuning suggestions once we have more information about the amplification limitations.

Regards,
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post #18 of 21 Old 07-24-2012, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I already own both the Fane 15XB and the Beyma 15K200.

But being currently unemployed I'd like to try and make use of the drivers I already got, due to the pretty limited funds.

If it helps the amp I got already is Crest Vs650, pretty nice reliable amp rated for substained loads into 2 ohms but it's not that powerful unfortunally for today's high power drivers, but I can use it for the tops, I'll build at a later stage.
As even bridge mode into 8 ohms would only give 650w rms, which would probably burn out the 300w rms Beyma 15K200(unless I had the gains turned really down), but be not enough for the Fane 15XB which is rated 800w AES continous.
I need an amp of AT LEAST 900w rms or a bit more for the Fane 15XB in order to reduce clipping. I'd rather turn down the gains on an amp with more headroom than run it full steam and deliver clipping into the driver.

Haven't at the moment bought an amp for the bass bin('subwoofer) yet. Also need to get an active crossover of some sort. Behringer Super X Pro 3400 stereo 2/3 way or 4 way mono active xover.
The only low cut on it is a 25hz subsonic filter. So I'll buy a 15 a stereo 31 band graphic EQ, and put all the faders below say 35hz to -10db.
Amp for the bass bin I can't decide on yet. The Behringer EP2000 or EP4000 amp seems powerful and good value, or I might just get a better quality used amp like I did with the Crest Vs650.

Anyway as for plans I've found these:

http://www.fane-international.com/downloads/Cabinets15inch125Lres.pdf That would work perfectly with my Fane 15XB and the frequency response is 35hz

Or the B&C Sub15 design which is rumoured to work(from a few people on speakerplans) with the Fane 15XB which has easier to make ports: http://www.bcspeakers.com/suggested.php?id=0000000007
The B&C Sub15 design also goes to 35hz, but after the port tuning frequency of 40hz it starts very rapidly rolling off shown on the graph on the left.

As for the Beyma 15K200 the plans I found were these:
http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~ilkorur/speaker/beyma.htm Unfortunally they only give a horn design.
Hope the driver works in a reflex design, I think I'll download WINISD PRO and see if the Beyma 15K200 can be used in any reflex designs.
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post #19 of 21 Old 07-24-2012, 02:22 PM
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the beyma will work just fine in several bass reflex designs from a larger lower tuned to a smaller higher tuned cab.

the problem is that it just isn't going to produce enough spl for LOUD dubstep in a rented out hall. for something like that you need a sub that can pound out 35hz or even lower with the authority of something in the upper 120's db or even higher. that is about a 4x18" sub rig.

here is the beyma, 300w, 6 cubic footer tuned to 33hz with two 4" ports that are 7.4" long. it would be a decent compromise cab between going really low and going really loud.


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post #20 of 21 Old 07-25-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItchyTasty42 View Post

...Crest Vs650, pretty nice reliable amp rated for substained loads into 2 ohms but it's not that powerful unfortunally for today's high power drivers,

You're focusing too much on power ratings, and not paying attention to in-box response, efficiency, and excursion.... That amp has plenty of power for many sub designs, including any practical reflex design for either of the drivers you own
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As even bridge mode into 8 ohms would only give 650w rms, which would probably burn out the 300w rms Beyma 15K200(unless I had the gains turned really down)

Blowing drivers is never an amplifiers fault, it is an operators fault. You wouldn't have to have gains turned "way down" or anything, just set the gain appropriately for the driver. For a typical 8 ohm 300W RMS rated driver, around 50V is probably a good ballpark maximum if you want to keep from frying the coil. However, this doesn't take into account displacement limitations (Xlim) and mechanical damage that could occur at a fraction of this input if fed the right frequency in the right box. Thermal limits are only one piece of the puzzle.
Quote:
but be not enough for the Fane 15XB which is rated 800w AES continous.

Wrong, The FANE will hit Xmax at ~300-500W in most typical vented alignments that you might be interested in. Thermal limits and mechanical limits are separate issues but must both be considered. The amp you have would be great for either driver in a reflex box.
Quote:
I need an amp of AT LEAST 900w rms or a bit more for the Fane 15XB in order to reduce clipping. I'd rather turn down the gains on an amp with more headroom than run it full steam and deliver clipping into the driver.

Having amplification overhead is a good idea especially with more thermally sensitive drivers like high frequency transducers that don't have the benefit of acting like an air pump to help cool themselves. When it comes to bass bin amplification, overhead is less necessary as the drivers are less sensitive to distortion. Assuming you were to set-up the 15XB in a box that hit's Xmax at 400W, any amplifier rated from ~400-800W RMS would be considered reasonable for the application. Again, if you use the 800W on a box that hits Xmax at 400W, it's the operators responsibility to figure out what gain or voltage level is going to keep the driver operating within linearity. (USE SIMULATION TO ESTIMATE THESE LIMITS)


Regarding the box design. It seems like you are convinced that these drivers need some perfectly sized and dimensioned box in order to work correctly. Like if the box isn't built from "plans" it somehow isn't going to work. Take a tape measure out to your car and see what size is going to work to fit your portability needs, then get back with us for box design advice. The box can be anything from 1ft^3 to the size of a train car. Larger will buy more gain. Sometimes, larger will buy gain in unnecessary places where amplification could be used to achieve the same ends. A well designed box makes the best use of the available space that YOU have.

If box size is a factor, my suggestion is to use the FANE driver. The increased thermal limits of the FANE 15XB will allow you to size down the box, but still hit the same SPL as the Beyma by simply feeding it more watts.

Regards,
Eric
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post #21 of 21 Old 07-25-2012, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItchyTasty42 View Post

As even bridge mode into 8 ohms would only give 650w rms, which would probably burn out the 300w rms Beyma 15K200(unless I had the gains turned really down), but be not enough for the Fane 15XB which is rated 800w AES continous.
.
First of all-"turning the gains doesn" does NOTHING to limite the amplifer power. Most amplifiers can put out full power-even when turned down to "1".

The exception is when the input signal has to be larger than the power supply for the low voltage stage.

It is generally recommended to have an amp in the range of twice the wattage of the continuous rating of the loudspeaker. Some people recommend 4 times-AS LONG AS the signal has a wide dynamic range. Highly compress dance music or low bit rate MP3 do not qualify.

Of course with music that has sustained bass notes- an amp that is HALF of the rated continuous rating is not a bad idea.

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