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post #181 of 235 Old 10-30-2012, 07:28 AM
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Hi Brad,
I don't remember what you have used in the past but I would love to hear your impressions between these, the Pro's, and any other speaker for that matter. I know auditory memory is not good and buying speakers from the past can really show you where you have come. I am still loving my BFM DR arrays and I am getting close to putting ribbons into them just to try. I figure it will sound the same at worse. It is funny how small the Pro-10's look as they are a big bookshelf speaker. Still not as bad as my JBL's compared to the SHO-10's I had. They were actually too big for my room and I could not separate them. Looks great!
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post #182 of 235 Old 10-31-2012, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks MK!

I haven't auditioned nearly as many mains and subs as you have for sure, and even fewer in this room (just the PRO/SHO/PRO combo and these - along with the pair of THT LPs). My previous living room setups were B&W 60x series, and now HTD in-walls for living room and master bedroom (TV watching rooms essentially).

I plan to do some A/B tests between the SEOS LCRs and the PRO/SHO/PRO LCRs, maybe this weekend. Just sit them both on the floor, and then play a scene, swap banana plugs and MCACC memory settings, then replay the same scene; repeat until sick of it. Then maybe I can give a more accurate description than I can now.

My early impressions - the difference is noticeable, but somewhat subtle: a bit more kick in the crossover region (I ran the CHTs with the crossover at 100 Hz for best effect, I didn't notice any difference with the SEOS crossing over at 80 vs. 100, so left at 80 for now); vocals slightly less "boxy" (maybe due to more internal damping?); maybe slightly more detail / nuance - but that and other impressions could well be placebo until I actually do back to back listening.

Re: toe-in - I'm still experimenting, don't take the pictures as my final setup. In the past, I've toed in 45 degrees to cross in front of the LP, to good effect, but it wasn't a huge difference, so I'll try different amounts of toe in and see what I like. I made these coffins so deep that 45 degrees may not be possible anyway, we'll see.
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post #183 of 235 Old 10-31-2012, 05:16 PM
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Would be interesting seeing a measurement of both too. Even if it's in room. Try and keep the amp level and mic distance identical. I don't think the SEOS will be that much more sensitive though, cause yours are 16ohm and the Delta10a used in the Sho are pretty sensitive for a 10". Would be interesting though. And of course, the JBL will go way deeper I imagine.
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post #184 of 235 Old 10-31-2012, 06:26 PM
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[quote name="Brad Horstkotte" url="/t/1422024/seos-12-dna-360-jbl-2226-j-build/180#post_22544661"
My early impressions - the difference is noticeable, but somewhat subtle: a bit more kick in the crossover region (I ran the CHTs with the crossover at 100 Hz for best effect, I didn't notice any difference with the SEOS crossing over at 80 vs. 100, so left at 80 for now); vocals slightly less "boxy" (maybe due to more internal damping?); maybe slightly more detail / nuance - but that and other impressions could well be placebo until I actually do back to back listening.[/quote]

I think you are into the exponential part of the cost vs performance curve. Until you crank it up loud enough to drive the SHO-10 into distortion, there may not be much difference to hear.
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post #185 of 235 Old 10-31-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Just to hear them differently, that's all. I have 2 of the 'economy' designs in my living room only for stereo use. Turning them closer to 45 degrees seems to make the speakers disappear no matter where you are in the room.

It's potentially a lot more than that.

If there's more than just one or two centered listeners, it gives much more even SPL across the listening area.

And if you're satisfied with the phantom center image, you could ditch the center speaker and the related issue of a too high or low center speaker with a big screen.

If you dealt with the latter with an acoustically transparent screen, now you can use a great gain screen like the Hipower.

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post #186 of 235 Old 11-01-2012, 06:38 AM
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Hi Brad,

What kinda power are you using on these? Sounds like your happy with the SQ. As far as SPL do you feel the 16ohm woofs keep up with the CHT speakers? I guess my question is are you satisfied with the SPL?

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post #187 of 235 Old 11-01-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Better late than never ... rolleyes.gif
I have the LCR set up in my HT room, but just sitting on the floor for now, until I figure out how to modify my speaker shelving behind the screen.
in-room%2520001.jpg
Size comparison to a CHT PRO-10:
in-room%2520004.jpg
in-room%2520007.jpg
Listening impressions - well, I'm terrible at putting what I hear into words, but I'm very happy with them! I've spent a few hours listening to music ranging from Disturbed to Jethro Tull to Al DiMeola to Puccini to Chaka Khan, etc.; and hit them hard (well if -10 is considered hard, to some I know this would be 2nd gear) with some action movies - Drive Angry, Transformers 3, Tron Legacy, Skyline, Dark Knight, ... they handled everything I threw at them well, clarity and subtlety for lower level stuff with nuance, and plenty of kick for brute force. I played around with different crossover settings for the subs, and leaving it at 80 Hz for now, since I didn't notice any appreciable difference - may change after I've done more detailed measurements. I did some prelim measurements in the room with REW, but nothing worth publishing since they're not in their final positions yet.

Lookin Great!

I like the intro in Transformers 1 to show the depth and clarity these big woofer boxes can do. When I upgraded my LCR's to the 4pi (with 2226h jbl woof) it was the center where I could hear a difference. Not all the time, but stood out on more powerful, deeper content - at least for movie stuff.

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post #188 of 235 Old 11-03-2012, 07:02 AM
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Brad-looks great! Thanks for the link to this thread. Had no idea you were doing this.

Im trying to decide whether to build out a pair of GR Research LS-9s (and center) with a friend locally or do something like this.

I'm like 90% HT use like you so I'm not sure which route to go. (He is a woodworking nut like you, so I'm in good hands there).
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post #189 of 235 Old 11-03-2012, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Greg - how much do the parts / kits for the LS-9s run, they look killer (and killer expensive with all the ribbons!)
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post #190 of 235 Old 11-03-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Thanks Greg - how much do the parts / kits for the LS-9s run, they look killer (and killer expensive with all the ribbons!)

I think I would have $3.5k in them including the wood. I think that was the center too. Then add the veneer if we go that route-most likely just flat black though.

My brain says horns are better than those for HT...though. Thoughts?
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post #191 of 235 Old 11-03-2012, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I was going to say the arrays for music (stereo), and waveguides for movies - but that was asssuming matching LCR waveguide speakers behind an AT screen -how much vertical room do you have for the center?

Cuzed is going to build a Malcolm SEOS for his center, will be interesting to see how it works for him.

For 3.5K you could build high end SEOS LCRs and have a lot of money left over. I've never actually heard an LS-9 in person though. Did av123 make them before or I'm mistaken? If so, could maybe pick up used for less coin.
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post #192 of 235 Old 11-04-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

I was going to say the arrays for music (stereo), and waveguides for movies - but that was asssuming matching LCR waveguide speakers behind an AT screen -how much vertical room do you have for the center?
Cuzed is going to build a Malcolm SEOS for his center, will be interesting to see how it works for him.
For 3.5K you could build high end SEOS LCRs and have a lot of money left over. I've never actually heard an LS-9 in person though. Did av123 make them before or I'm mistaken? If so, could maybe pick up used for less coin.

I heard the LS-6 last weekend at the GTG and they are by far the best speaker(s) for music I've ever heard. I don't have a long list though. smile.gif
AV123 did make them, and now you can buy the parts and plans and do them as a kit.

How tall are your cabinets? Last time I measured a JBL 3677 would fit right under my screen vertically I think.
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post #193 of 235 Old 11-04-2012, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

I heard the LS-6 last weekend at the GTG and they are by far the best speaker(s) for music I've ever heard. I don't have a long list though. smile.gif
AV123 did make them, and now you can buy the parts and plans and do them as a kit.
How tall are your cabinets? Last time I measured a JBL 3677 would fit right under my screen vertically I think.

If the arrays can play at reference in your room without compression I would go with them.
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post #194 of 235 Old 11-04-2012, 10:45 AM
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fantastic workmanship brad. really, first class.

i'm going to steal one of your pics for the seos "rallying" thread. :-)

as for listening, that woofer is well engineered for low distortion. so in addition to playing at very high levels, it also produces very little "listener fatique" which apparently arises as our brains try to filter out all the various forms of distortion.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #195 of 235 Old 11-05-2012, 12:07 PM
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Brad,

Thanks to your excellent thread and result And Encouragement:

I just joined the DIY club. Ordered 3-SEOS 12 s today, and 3-350CDs. smile.gif

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post #196 of 235 Old 11-05-2012, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

fantastic workmanship brad. really, first class.
i'm going to steal one of your pics for the seos "rallying" thread. :-)
as for listening, that woofer is well engineered for low distortion. so in addition to playing at very high levels, it also produces very little "listener fatique" which apparently arises as our brains try to filter out all the various forms of distortion.

Thanks LTD02, steal away =) I need to take some pictures in better lighting at some point, they came out pretty dark, since the room is dark and I just had on the usual ambient lighting that I use for pre-movie.
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Brad,
Thanks to your excellent thread and result And Encouragement:
I just joined the DIY club. Ordered 3-SEOS 12 s today, and 3-350CDs. smile.gif

Great, looking forward to watching your build - Malcolm for center I believe, what about the L/R, what design did you settle on?
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post #197 of 235 Old 11-05-2012, 02:33 PM
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Brad,

I believe the Malcolm, or a sealed version of the Malcolm using 6.5" mid-bass drivers.
It would be a blend of Bill Waslo's "Malcolm", and a new center he has nicknamed the "Daniel" .

As for the mains undecided; will probably use a 12" driver, JBL or perhaps one of the other 12" "value" options...?

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post #198 of 235 Old 11-05-2012, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Hadn't seen that Daniel design - the 4 woofer version you were asking about sounds interesting - bummer that the Auras are apparently running out, although I was able to add 2500 to my cart at parts express, so doesn't sound like the situation is imminent just yet.
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post #199 of 235 Old 11-06-2012, 07:13 AM
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I ordered only 6 of those Auras. Maybe use the extra 2 to throw together some bookshelves for my shop...

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post #200 of 235 Old 11-06-2012, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Hadn't seen that Daniel design - the 4 woofer version you were asking about sounds interesting - bummer that the Auras are apparently running out, although I was able to add 2500 to my cart at parts express, so doesn't sound like the situation is imminent just yet.

So I can't get any 2226Js anymore right? What are the best options? Aura 12s?
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post #201 of 235 Old 11-06-2012, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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So I can't get any 2226Js anymore right? What are the best options? Aura 12s?

Not sure if Erich has any more of the steal of a deal 2226Js, but 2226Js and 2226Hs come up often used on eBay. I went for the 2226Js because they were such a good deal. If not for that, I would probably have dug around for 2226Hs on eBay. There are also quite a few designs that are ready or almost ready, that if I was starting today, I'd probably research those first.
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post #202 of 235 Old 11-06-2012, 12:56 PM
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/swap-meet/222663-jbl-2226h-400-pair.html

Not sure what the going rate is, but $400 for a pair of 2226H seems like a good deal.
Just to remind though, this xo I helped Brad with is not confirmed for the H model. The 16ohm J model changes things. Someone may do a H model design, or if you want I can make adjustments. I just don't want someone to take it as is, and end up with something that would sound obviously wrong.

Speaking of Brad... anymore thoughts on voicing? Have you had much listening time? If you think anything needs improvement, lets talk. Wish I could hear them biggrin.gif

EDIT - oops, mixing J and H. Corrected, I think.
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post #203 of 235 Old 11-06-2012, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Still enjoying them - I've been going through my music library the last few days, re-listening to a lot of old favorites - they are still out in the room, on the floor, so curious how things change once they're in their final positions - they'll get more boundary reinforcement, but once MCACC has been re-run, not sure that would net out to the same result? We'll see.

As I crank them higher for music, I'm also rediscovering that my next priority should be finally getting around to adding broadband absorption, as the room is too live - feel some listener fatigue after extended periods at higher levels - I suspect the room, but could also partially be interaction with my wonderful tinnitus (I get a similar effect after listening to the terrible radio in my Mini Cooper, it hits just the right frequency to irritate my ears).
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post #204 of 235 Old 11-06-2012, 03:22 PM
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Well lets do better than your mini cooper eek.gif

Could be the tweeter level. I find adjusting tweeter level is one of the most often required changes after a simulation. If you have some spare resistors you could try swapping them around. Unless you've put it all together, then that could be a pain.

Have you tried the cross fire? That might take more room out. As well bring the direct sound from the tweeter down a couple db. At higher levels, this becomes essential to avoiding fatigue. The room will wear on you if they're not setup well.

Have fun listening!
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post #205 of 235 Old 11-07-2012, 08:19 AM
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Since I'm selling my SHO-10s and rolling with these, was it worth the switch for you? smile.gif

If you send me your plans as a file I'll promise to attempt to stop swearing during COD and Halo multiplayer matches.
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post #206 of 235 Old 11-07-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

I was going to say the arrays for music (stereo), and waveguides for movies - but that was asssuming matching LCR waveguide speakers behind an AT screen -how much vertical room do you have for the center?
Cuzed is going to build a Malcolm SEOS for his center, will be interesting to see how it works for him.
For 3.5K you could build high end SEOS LCRs and have a lot of money left over. I've never actually heard an LS-9 in person though. Did av123 make them before or I'm mistaken? If so, could maybe pick up used for less coin.

Husker,

Just moved from a set of Triple12's to the LS6's. I still have yet to watch a good action movie on them as I have just been too dang stoked listening to music on them every night. WITH NO EQ!!! They are just insane for music listening. I plan on doing SEOS12/dna360/ae td12x LCR's as well as keep the LS6's for the time being. Not sure how I feel about having all that fit right, but whatever, I'll make the best of it smile.gif

AV123 did build them but now there are several other shops that are building them out. Angel City does some IIRC, Selah is about to offer a kit right down the road from me, and then you can assemble all the parts and get the plans straight from Danny with GR Research

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If the arrays can play at reference in your room without compression I would go with them.

They should. With ample power. As I'm sure you know but as many don't, the LineArray design loses half the dB per doubling in distance than a traditional point source. The sound carries wonderfully.

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post #207 of 235 Old 11-07-2012, 11:41 AM
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Husker,

Just moved from a set of Triple12's to the LS6's. I still have yet to watch a good action movie on them as I have just been too dang stoked listening to music on them every night.

 

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post #208 of 235 Old 11-07-2012, 11:44 AM
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Man you gotta lug those beasts to an area meet, if we ever have one..... 

yea this is getting ridiculous that we have not gotten something together. Hauling these guys around will be a task, they dont even fit all the way in a truck bed once packed...haha

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post #209 of 235 Old 11-07-2012, 11:49 AM
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Just moved from a set of Triple12's to the LS6's.

Pics or it didn't happen. wink.gif
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post #210 of 235 Old 11-07-2012, 11:56 AM
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Fine biggrin.gif As O's new plan would say: Ask and ye shall receive!

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