Wayne Parham's H290C waveguide measurements - Page 4 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 191 Old 08-11-2012, 05:41 PM
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foam attenuates high frequencies.

most people like that, particularly as the volume gets turned up.

were they eq'd back to the same response during testing?

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post #92 of 191 Old 08-11-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

foam attenuates high frequencies.
There's more to it than that. The shorter wavelengths of the highs are diffracted by the foam, broadening their dispersion in the same fashion as an acoustic lens, while progressively longer wavelengths are less and less affected. That tends to give more uniform dispersion, with less high frequency beaming.

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post #93 of 191 Old 08-11-2012, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

foam attenuates high frequencies.
most people like that, particularly as the volume gets turned up.
were they eq'd back to the same response during testing?
I could not find any more details. But without EQing the test is so obviously meaningless I cannot imagine it was not done.
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post #94 of 191 Old 08-11-2012, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There's more to it than that. The shorter wavelengths of the highs are diffracted by the foam, broadening their dispersion in the same fashion as an acoustic lens, while progressively longer wavelengths are less and less affected. That tends to give more uniform dispersion, with less high frequency beaming.

And even at a given frequency, the high order mode radiation is attenuated more than the non-reflecting radiation because it has a longer path length through the foam.

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post #95 of 191 Old 08-11-2012, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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More details would certainly help. For example if the difference could be only reliably told at higher SPL, only then the test could reasonably be interpreted as supporting the claim that HOMs are audible.
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post #96 of 191 Old 08-13-2012, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update on the measurements confusion.

Based on what I know now, I believe that the jzagaja's measurements posted on Auto-tech SEOS-12 product page are most likely incorrect.
I do not think the chart was mislabeled because that just does not happen by mistake, all the labels are generated by the software.

More likely explanation in my opinion, which jzagaja seem to share, is simply imprecise positioning due to wrongly calculated acoustic center or angles. As MBentz pointed out, even small mistakes at such a short measuring distance can lead to significant measuring errors.

Another reason for my conclusion is that there is a more recent set of measurements that jzagaja performed, this time using B&C drivers and measured at a larger distance. They look very much in line with BWaslo's measurements.

jzagaja kindly allowed me to share the ARTA files, attached.

DE250.zip 3257k .zip file

Here's is my attempt to plot a directivity sonogram using the data.



My ARTA skills are limited at best, I could not figure out how to change the degree axis to a more useful scale. But even at this level of details it seems to be very close to Bill's results, which is to say both measurements show SEOS12 as roughly 100 degree horn, slightly wider than the 90 degree target.

I do not want to overstate the difference 10 degrees make. LTD02 has argued rather convincingly that it does not. My opinion is that it is application depended.
Edit: to expand on my last point, in large rooms or outdoors the wider beam width may be an advantage. In small rooms typical for HT, all else being equal, horns with tighter directivity control are a better choice. A problem with LTDs chart, in my opinion, is that it assumes 45 degree toe in. If my experience is any indicator, 45 degree toe in is rarely an option, most people use less aggressive angles.
Here's Wayne's take on the subject
Attached Files
File Type: zip DE250.zip (3.18 MB, 17 views)
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post #97 of 191 Old 08-13-2012, 01:58 PM
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zheka, good investigative work there.

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post #98 of 191 Old 08-13-2012, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

foam attenuates high frequencies.
most people like that, particularly as the volume gets turned up.
were they eq'd back to the same response during testing?

Of course.
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post #99 of 191 Old 08-13-2012, 07:49 PM
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"Of course."

got a link?

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post #100 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 12:01 PM
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I've been gone for a bit so I just noticed this recent discussion.

First, Zheka, yes those early measurements by Jzagaja were incorrect. I don't recall if the measurements themselves were flawed or simply the chart. We recognized this when he posted them. I assumed they had been corrected. Anyway, Bwaslo's measurements are the reference measurements IMO. They show a 90deg horizontal dispersion over their usable range. That was the original design specification and the achieved measurement.

Second, I've been involved with the SEOS since the first couple of posts. I've built Pi 4's with H290s and Ewave Deluxes. I had many discussions with Zilch before his passing. I've designed crossovers for horn based speakers and used Pi documents as a piece of my reference material each time. I've also pointed people towards Pi3 and PI4 speaker plans and kits, even in the SEOS thread. There is no animosity from the SEOS crowd towards Mr. Parham or Pi Speakers to the best of my knowledge. The only "bone to pick" was an old quote attributed to you that panned the SEOS. I don't know if the quote was accurate and I'm pretty certain we explained it away due to the aforementioned botched measurements.

Third, Wayne, I believe you are making some assumptions about the SEOS design that aren't true regarding its profile. It is true that it does not fit an exact catenary function, it is quite close and we found this was a slightly better compromise. Like with any design process, two different designers will have different priorities and different views of the data.

All in all, the differences between the the SEOS and H290C pale in comparison to their similarities. When I find some time for more speaker projects I'd like to get a few H290Cs to try next the SEOS and QSC waveguides I presently have.
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post #101 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

. Anyway, Bwaslo's measurements are the reference measurements IMO. They show a 90deg horizontal dispersion over their usable range. They show a 90deg horizontal dispersion over their usable range. That was the original design specification and the achieved measurement.

With all due respect BWaslo's directivity sonogram clearly shows that the -6dB contour is over the 45 degree mark for most of the 1.7kHz to 6kHz range, reaching approx 55 degrees around 3kHz.

seos12_large.jpg


This may be of little or no consequence in terms of performance but it does contradict the claim that SEOS is a 90 degree horn.

edit:

it maybe easier to see on this one:

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post #102 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:07 PM
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That sure looks like an average of 45 degrees to me. Youre upset abouta dB of wiggle?

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post #103 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

That sure looks like an average of 45 degrees to me. Youre upset abouta dB of wiggle?

is that how the beam width is measured, by averaging the results?
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post #104 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:22 PM
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Well its about as close to being an 80 degree as it is to a 100 degree width, right? Why do you pick the peak rather than the minimum? 90 is the closest answer. Below 300 Hz its going on to 360 degrees....

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post #105 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Why do you pick the peak rather than the minimum? 90 is the closest answer.

Because that's the convention AFAIK.
to be fully consistent it should be called a 110 degree horn but I felt it would look like I am overstating my case
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post #106 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:33 PM
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convention?? Sez who?

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post #107 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

convention?? Sez who?

That is a good question actually. I honestly do not remember where I got it from. Perhaps LTD02 remembers offhand?
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post #108 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 01:58 PM
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What hasn't been mentioned is that:

1. A cross over may take that "hot spot" out of the 3khz region; and
2. The horn holds that -6db at 45degrees pattern down to 800hz!!!

Gotta think about the forest when in the trees some times.
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post #109 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

What hasn't been mentioned is that:
1. A cross over may take that "hot spot" out of the 3khz region; and
2. The horn holds that -6db at 45degrees pattern down to 800hz!!!
Gotta think about the forest when in the trees some times.

I am not arguing that it measures well or that it is a good performer. not at all.
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post #110 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 03:11 PM
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"That is a good question actually. I honestly do not remember where I got it from. Perhaps LTD02 remembers offhand?"

the convention is based on the -6db point off axis. if a horn is down 6db at 45 degrees to one side and is symmetrical, then it will be called a 90 degree horn.

in the o.p. in the "rallying thread", there is a 12" seos with de250 on it. off axis lines every 7.5 degrees. counting up from the bottom gives a hair over 45 (including the white line that is really tough to see), so 2x a hair over 45 could be called a 90 or a 100. it really doesn't matter and you won't hear any difference.

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post #111 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Quick update on the measurements confusion.
Based on what I know now, I believe that the jzagaja's measurements posted on Auto-tech SEOS-12 product page are most likely incorrect.

We've been saying from the beginning that those measurements were not right. We said it, the guy that measured them said it. You even personally asked him yourself and he said they were not correct. So you're bumping the thread to let us know that you finally believe what has been said many times? You already bought the other design and it seems like you continue to try and convince yourself that you made the right choice. Price didn't matter, looks didn't matter, posted graphs didn't matter. Just go with them and be happy, you surely will be. Wayne builds good speakers, so enjoy them. You're good to go.

When you ordered the compression drivers, you should have asked if I had any catenary style horns for really cheap. I ordered a bunch of different horns from around the world to test and also see how they were manufactured. I have at least 100 different horn models on my shelf (yes, I'm crazy) and about 15 are catenary. 3 look so similar to others that I will no longer consider selling them out of respect. But I would have given them to you for free because I've been giving away a lot of sample stuff that's just sitting around. The main thing I didn't like about most of the different sample designs I got was that the throat angle isn't right. They aren't nice and smooth like we were hoping for and the throat angles don't match the compression driver like the SEOS and probably Wayne's new model were designed to do. Instead they're a bit squared off before they flow into the meat of the horn, so it's a fairly dramatic pattern change that we were trying to avoid for obvious reasons. I'd have to post a picture to explain what I'm saying. But not all of them are like that though, so if you think you could use some for future surround speakers or whatever, just let me know because they're just samples I have sitting around that probably won't get used.

Rock on man, start building, start enjoying. There's a lot of people on these forums that are very willing to help out if you have any build questions. Check out some of the threads by PassingInterest, that guy can build a speaker!

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post #112 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I am not arguing that it measures well or that it is a good performer. not at all.


Then what are you arguing?

This thread is starting to sound like you want to find every possible way to put down the SEOS. Why don't you just buy one, measure it and let us know what you find. Listen to it and see how you like it.

It's not for everybody. Certainly, even a quarter million dollar Ferrarri is not for everyone's likings.
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post #113 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"That is a good question actually. I honestly do not remember where I got it from. Perhaps LTD02 remembers offhand?"
the convention is based on the -6db point off axis. if a horn is down 6db at 45 degrees to one side and is symmetrical, then it will be called a 90 degree horn.
in the o.p. in the "rallying thread", there is a 12" seos with de250 on it. off axis lines every 7.5 degrees. counting up from the bottom gives a hair over 45 (including the white line that is really tough to see), so 2x a hair over 45 could be called a 90 or a 100. it really doesn't matter and you won't hear any difference.

I am glad that the convention does not mention any averaging. There are probably many bloomy horns with severe waistbending and HF beaming that,when averaged, could claim to be 90 degree.

Calling the beamwidth from the widest -6dB mark is a good and objective way to gauge directivity control. All the relevant averaging is already done in the form of smoothing and on-axis normalization.

And I'd appreciate if you agree that SEOS is a 100 degree horn simply call it such.
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post #114 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Then what are you arguing?
.

I am arguing that SEOS is not a 90 degree horn
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post #115 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Erich

I have not exactly come over to the "rallying" thread to poo over the SEOS and push the competing design. Come to think of it, quite the opposite has happened.

Whatever claims I made were always modest and, I like to think, well supported.
You on the other hand failed to dispute any of them on merit and instead accused me of bad faith, incompetence and ungratefulness .
There is something very disappointing in seeing somebody of your fame and stature trying to roll over a nobody like me with a lawn aerator.
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post #116 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

All in all, the differences between the the SEOS and H290C pale in comparison to their similarities.

The biggest difference is the elliptical vs. rectangular profiles.

Besides the former looking nicer, I've always wondered whether the internal corner formed by the intersection of latter's horizontal and vertical profiles create acoustical warts like reflections or irregularity in the radiation at the "corners" of the wavefront.

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post #117 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

Calling the beamwidth from the widest -6dB mark is a good and objective way to gauge directivity control. All the relevant averaging is already done in the form of smoothing and on-axis normalization.
And I'd appreciate if you agree that SEOS is a 100 degree horn simply call it such.

It's a nominally 90 degree horn by design. It measures pretty damn close to a 90 degree beamwidth over a wide bandwidth - nothing to do with "averaging". There are narrow peaks and dips between 100 and 80 degrees.

If you want to call it a 100 degree horn, go for it! It's however rather abnormal for horns to be called anything but 120 / 90 / 60 / 50 / 40 and sounds like someone trying to downplay its effectiveness in order to push whatever agenda they have. what it isn't, is a 120 degree horn like Wayne has suggested in the past. Nor is it a < 60 degree horn like some prefer. You'd "appreciate" people calling it a 100 degree horn? Why is that? In what way does it affect you?

I hate to say it, but I too am getting the sense that you're trying to justify your purchase by putting down the other choice. In reality, the most important thing is that the directivity is matched in the crossover region, and for a speaker like this, that it is sufficiently narrow to reduce side wall reflections. Beyond that you're splitting hairs, and this is a bit annoying coming from someone not using the SEOS to design a speaker, but rather someone who didn't buy a SEOS in the first place.
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post #118 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 05:42 PM
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thirty minutes later......

uVPl5.jpg

Unless im reading it wrong then i dont see much of a difference in degrees.
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post #119 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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wrong 50 degree mark of H290C chart. your line is about 40 degree or so. please correct it.
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post #120 of 191 Old 08-14-2012, 06:06 PM
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I did it again and its the same thing..... the black ticks mark 0, 20, 40, 60.

My white lines are indicating 45 deg and 50deg
MLqyZ.png

My lines are correct

Lets have an overlay

ZWWsX.png
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