Wayne Parham's H290C waveguide measurements - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 191 Old 07-27-2012, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I just stumbled over this post on Pi speakers forum

http://audioroundtable.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=73258

To my untrained eye the measurements seem very impressive.
Note that this is not the original Eminence H290 horn. Wayne has this one produced specifically for him to his specs.


What do you guys think? is this indeed a very good performance or I am  misreading the results?


some excerpts:
Quote:
......
Horizontal Contour Chart (Normalized to the on-axis curve)
H290C_Horizontal_Contour_Normalized.jpg

This shows directivity is constant through the passband. The definition of beamwidth is angles where the SPL is -6dB from the on-axis level, which can be seen to be constant at 90° (+/-45°).

It is easier to see the -6dB points if we stratify the contour gradient at 6dB rather than every 1dB. This shows the beamwidth angles very clearly:


Horizontal Contour Chart (Stratified at 6dB increments)
H290C_Horizontal_Contour_Normalized_6dB_strata.jpg

......

Vertical Contour Chart (Normalized to the on-axis curve)
H290C_Vertical_Contour_Normalized.jpg

This shows vertical beamwidth is constant from 3kHz upwards through the passband. Again, the definition of beamwidth is angles where the SPL is -6dB from the on-axis level, which can be seen to be constant around 50° (+/-25°).

It is easier to see the -6dB points if we stratify the contour gradient at 6dB rather than every 1dB. This shows the beamwidth angles very clearly:


Vertical Contour Chart (Stratified at 6dB increments)H290C_Vertical_Contour_Normalized_6dB_strata.jpg
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post #2 of 191 Old 07-27-2012, 08:35 PM
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"Note that this is not the original Eminence H290 horn. Wayne has this one produced specifically for him to his specs."

what horn is that?

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post #3 of 191 Old 07-27-2012, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Note that this is not the original Eminence H290 horn. Wayne has this one produced specifically for him to his specs."
what horn is that?

This is the horn that replaced the original eminence H290 (now out of production) in 3pi and 4pi speakers





I believe for the measurements it was loaded with DE250.
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post #4 of 191 Old 07-27-2012, 10:35 PM
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thanks zheka. it seems to perform very well. props wayne.

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post #5 of 191 Old 07-27-2012, 11:30 PM
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Heh. I was just looking at the thread at Wayne's site a lil bit ago. Looks pretty good!

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post #6 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 10:07 AM
 
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How does this performance compare to SEOS?
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post #7 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aknot5 View Post

How does this performance compare to SEOS?

Sadly, and for whatever reason, he's openly talked down about other waveguides like the SEOS and said none are as good as his. I don't really see any reason for him to do that because as far as I know, no one has talked bad about his products, but whatever floats the boat I guess.







If memory serves me correct, the following one is every 7.5 degrees. No crossover on this. It's hard to see all the curves because they're nearly the same up towards the top of the graph. biggrin.gif Plus, there's a white line in there between the grey and black line that's hard to see. Honestly, things can't get much better and it's pretty difficult to try and bad mouth this waveguide. But it is what it is.


seos12_horizontal_1_4.jpg
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post #8 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 12:14 PM
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They look pretty comparable to me in terms of pattern control, as does the QSC waveguide. The one off-axis picture

Looks like it may use a diffraction slot near the throat to the left and right (Geddes wouldn't approve) but I don't know how much that matters (nor whether Geddes would like the SEOS either, though it doesn't use a diffraction slot).

I think the SEOS has it all over it in terms of appearance (my personal taste)
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post #9 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 12:40 PM
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i don't think wayne would put a diffraction slot in a horn. it is probably just a lighting anomaly.

"Sadly, and for whatever reason, he's openly talked down about other waveguides like the SEOS and said none are as good as his. I don't really see any reason for him to do that because as far as I know, no one has talked bad about his products..."

i suspect that it is a business decision. some guys are not going to like the fact that you have comparable/superior products for lower cost, just as you would not like it if folks decided to provide landscaping as a hobby and undercut you to the point of less than break even.

i suspected something like this would happen and i really don't know how to think about it.

"I think the SEOS has it all over it in terms of appearance (my personal taste)"

yeah...it's not even close.

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post #10 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Sadly, and for whatever reason, he's openly talked down about other waveguides like the SEOS and said none are as good as his. I don't really see any reason for him to do that because as far as I know, no one has talked bad about his products, but whatever floats the boat I guess.

I thought there was something about basing that on jzagaja's incorrect measurements.
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i suspect that it is a business decision. some guys are not going to like the fact that you have comparable/superior products for lower cost

Seems to me he could just use the SEOS himself.

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post #11 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I doubt very much this was a marketing ploy.

Are you really surprised Wayne likes his WG better? How do you think Geddes feels about his?

I think this is just what he says it is - he's proud of this achievement and he really thinks it is better than the competition. He expressed this opinion in a reply to an old post on a low traffic forum. For all we know he may not even be aware of this thread.
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post #12 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 04:26 PM
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"Seems to me he could just use the SEOS himself."

that's the problem. if it was just the seos horn...it would be fine, but erich and folks are putting forward full packs (woofers, c.d.'s, crossovers, flat pack enclosures, etc.) where nothing from wayne would be required.

"I doubt very much this was a marketing ploy."

you are free to your opinion and i am free to mine. i was simply expressing a theory that fits the facts.

"For all we know he may not even be aware of this thread."

who cares about this thread? wayne is well aware of the seos waveguide.

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post #13 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"
"For all we know he may not even be aware of this thread."
who cares about this thread? wayne is well aware of the seos waveguide.
This thread is the only place where the two wave guides are compared by name as far as I know.
If he meant to start a marketing offensive against the SEOS project, the choice of the venue does not make much sense IMHO.

I do agree that Pi kits and SEOS compete for the same crowd. I personally think he could bring some business if he had SEOS based design and have DNA360 as an alternative to DE250. Embrace rather than fight.
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post #14 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 05:14 PM
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I think Erich is going to business mode from the previous groupbuy volunteer mode. Or at least he will if I have any power of persuasion with him. He has way too much invested at this point to rationally do otherwise. He is still filling a market niche for diyers who want to get access to a range of waveguide designs without investing in a carpentry shop or buying into just a single designer's mindset. And also to bring toogether kits from some of the designers who aren't able to put a production chain together like Erich can.

And btw, I do think Wayne likes his waveguide better, why wouldn't he, its made to his spec. And I'm sure it sounds excellent if his other designs are any indication. Wayne is the guy that inspired the whole Econowave thing, he knows what he's doing. But there are other variations that are excellent as well.
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post #15 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 06:03 PM
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"Wayne is the guy that inspired the whole Econowave thing"

zilch was a long time jbl/lansing heritage member and put together lots of designs there. he loved restoring/modifying vintage cabs. the "econowave" was a project to try to bring his love and work to others for a very low price, hence its name, but your information may be better than mine.

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post #16 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 08:22 PM
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Ok so I am new to this whole thing, but can anyone tell me what the difference is between a waveguide and a horn? I am in the process of have someone build me a klipsch based design using Dave Harris' horns with the B&C DE750TN drivers. I wonder how these would compare to the ones referenced in this thread. The ones that I am going to be using are the Eliptrack 400's.
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post #17 of 191 Old 07-28-2012, 10:09 PM
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I follow the Pi forum and did not see Wayne's comments as anti-SEOS. He indicated his crossover would require modification to work with the SEOS. I assume the two waveguides are of different depths. As a 4 Pi owner I am glad he improved upon the performance of the original waveguide, since it has the same cutout and crossover requirements it is a bolt-on upgrade. The SEOS would require both a crossover and front baffle modification.

Just my 2 cents.

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post #18 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 05:36 AM
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IMHO anyone trying to shine a bad light on Wayne is using the wrong flashlight. He has done a lot to support the DIY community without compensation. I mean he gives away his plans, and will answer any question about building his speakers for free on his forum. Doesn't matter if you bought components from him or not.
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post #19 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok so I am new to this whole thing, but can anyone tell me what the difference is between a waveguide and a horn? I am in the process of have someone build me a klipsch based design using Dave Harris' horns with the B&C DE750TN drivers. I wonder how these would compare to the ones referenced in this thread. The ones that I am going to be using are the Eliptrack 400's.




Bump. Anyone?
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post #20 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 07:26 AM
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In a nutshell, all horns are wave guides, but wave guides need not be horns. If you screw a tweeter into a pipe, that's a wave guide, but it's not a horn. The wave guide has to be shaped like a funnel of some sort to qualify as a horn, whether it's folded or not; it needs to be wider at the mouth than at the throat. There's more to it, but mostly people are using the term wave guide because it sounds cool. In the vast majority of cases, when it comes to hifi speakers, when we talk about wave guides, we're dealing with horns.
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Bump. Anyone?

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post #21 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 08:51 AM
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I don't think anyone has ever tried to shine a bad light on Wayne. I certainly haven't, nor have I seen anyone else do that. I've talked to Wayne back and forth through email a few times when the SEOS project was being worked on and he seems like a great guy. I just thought it was unusual for him to say that his waveguide is "far superior" to the SEOS, which it's not.

These nicer waveguides all test pretty close. I have some that blend the QSC and the Eminence model in similar fashion. They test good and were priced really good too. But there were forums members much.....much smarter than I am steer the project towards the elliptical shape. Testing proved it to be a wise choice by the brains.
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post #22 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 12:04 PM
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I too had several email exchanges with Wayne when I was looking into the 4pi speakers. I ended building a pair of 1pi for surrounds. Wayne seems like a great guy, always willing to help and not pushing his kits on you.

Instead of arguing/debating, I think the DIY community is very fortunate to have 2 very nice waveguides available to them.

One should be very happy with either a SEOS or H290C build.

I did see where Wayne stated that his H290C is far superior to other waveguides. I think he honestly feel that, and perhaps it is based on his personal preferences.
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post #23 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 01:00 PM
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"Ok so I am new to this whole thing, but can anyone tell me what the difference is between a waveguide and a horn"

i'll take a stab at this one. others may have differing opinions.

historically, the distinction was one of intention, but are often similar in design.

a horn was used to increase spl by efficiently coupling the radiator to the air and the initial designs arose from the wind instruments, such as the trumpet.

a waveguide is used to control the focus/beam of the sound for some purpose other than just maximizing spl. dr. g. claims to have coined the term. i can't confirm that.

these days, many people use the terms to mean the same thing as a set of compression driver-based top ends as generally distinguished from ribbons or dome tweeters (though there are some waveguides designed for dome tweeters).

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post #24 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok so I am new to this whole thing, but can anyone tell me what the difference is between a waveguide and a horn?.
A horn has gain. That requires the throat to be less than 1 wavelength in dimension. The vast majority of waveguides, including most of those discussed here, are horns. If it's using a compression driver it's a horn. The main reason they're called waveguides by their manufacturers/sellers is marketing, as horns have an unfounded reputation for adding coloration.

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post #25 of 191 Old 07-29-2012, 04:14 PM
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Thanks for the clarification guys. Now my next, and most important question is:

I am building a pair of Klipsch based Corn-Scala's but am not using any Klipsch drivers or horns, instead I will be using the B&C DE750TN with Dave Harris' Eliptrack 400 horn. How do you guys think that combo would compare to Waynes horns and what ever drivers folks have been using with his? Speaking of which, what drivers have you guys been using with Waynes waveguides? Is the B&C DE750TN a pretty good driver? What would be considered a step up from the DE750TN?
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post #26 of 191 Old 08-01-2012, 04:56 PM
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I think the reason Wayne is "against" the SEOS is simply because he's misread the measurements and assumed it is a 120 degree guide.

The H290C AFAIK is a 60 x 40 guide which is closer to his preference for directivity pattern. A 120 degree guide certainly has a higher reflected-to-direct ratio.

The reality is though that the SEOS is closer to 90 deg than 120 deg.
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post #27 of 191 Old 08-01-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I think the reason Wayne is "against" the SEOS is simply because he's misread the measurements and assumed it is a 120 degree guide.
The H290C AFAIK is a 60 x 40 guide which is closer to his preference for directivity pattern. A 120 degree guide certainly has a higher reflected-to-direct ratio.
The reality is though that the SEOS is closer to 90 deg than 120 deg.

are these incorrect measurements?


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post #28 of 191 Old 08-01-2012, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I found bwaslo's measurements that look much better
.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1369780/at-last-the-seos12-measurements

could it be the driver that makes so much difference?
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post #29 of 191 Old 08-02-2012, 05:53 AM
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Sorry for asking again, but I am just wondering how Wayne s Waveguides compare to Dave Harris' horns? Does Wayne offer a horn that can mate well with a 2 inch driver in a 2-way configuration? I have been searching for the answers to this but haven't been able to find much info on how the two compare.
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post #30 of 191 Old 08-02-2012, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Sorry for asking again, but I am just wondering how Wayne s Waveguides compare to Dave Harris' horns? Does Wayne offer a horn that can mate well with a 2 inch driver in a 2-way configuration? I have been searching for the answers to this but haven't been able to find much info on how the two compare.

I am fairly certain none of the Wayne's waveguides are suitable for 2 inch compression drivers.
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