Questions regarding 2 tweeter choices` - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I am at a cross roads in terms of my theater system. I am looking to upgrade my current ht and basically have two different options that I have to choose from. My first option is a design kind of like the Klipsch Corn-Scala, but without using any Klipsch drivers. Instead, these will be a 2 way with the B&C DE750TN paired with Dave Harris's Eliptrack 400 horn, and possibly 4 Dayton Pro-10's for the bottom end. First off, I want to get your opinions on that combination of drivers, how do you guys think these would work? Any suggestions on improving them?

My next option is to go with a conventional tower using the RAAL 10D tweets with a Seas mid range driver (not sure of the exact model) and a pair of Dayton Pro-10's for the bottom end.

Of course I realize that these will be two totally different design philosophies and to be honest, I am kind of leaning towards the speakers with the RAAL tweets, mostly because I have always heard that these are some of the most revealing, accurate, perfect tweeter out there. I am not sure if the B&C DE750TN is anywhere close to as good as the RAAL.

So what do you guys think of all this? `
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post #2 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 07:00 AM
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Are you going active, or do you have a means to do xover work?

I dont think pro10's are the best choice for the bottom of a 3-way. You'll need a mid with higher sensitivity as well. My personal opinion of RAAL is extremely overpriced and completely overhyped.
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post #3 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I am going to use an active crossover if I go with the horn based speakers, but, if I go with the conventional speakers I will have someone else do the crossover.

As far as the mid range drivers are concerned, I may go with a Scanspeak Illumntater, but, I am still undecided on the bass drivers. I am trying to keep the price under $1500.00 per speaker.
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post #4 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 08:11 AM
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If you're going active don't worry about the relative sensitivities of the drivers. No need to, since all you'll need to do is change the gain.

Personally, I'd go with the midrange that you like the best. After trying a few designs I decided that since the midrange is where human hearing is most sensitive and accurate (human voice range...) I wanted to have a dedicated mid that covered as much of the vocal range as possible that behaved well at the crossover frequencies. Hard to do with a horn... Usually you end up with a crossover right in the middle of the human voice range.
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post #5 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptomes View Post

If you're going active don't worry about the relative sensitivities of the drivers. No need to, since all you'll need to do is change the gain.
Personally, I'd go with the midrange that you like the best. After trying a few designs I decided that since the midrange is where human hearing is most sensitive and accurate (human voice range...) I wanted to have a dedicated mid that covered as much of the vocal range as possible that behaved well at the crossover frequencies. Hard to do with a horn... Usually you end up with a crossover right in the middle of the human voice range.

That is a good point, and to be honest, when I started out with the idea of building a horn based design, I originally wanted to do a 3 way, but the guys at the Klipsch forum as well as Dave Harris, all seem to think that a 2 way is a major step up in performance compared to a 3 way. It seems to me that a 3 way would be superior to a 2 way in every aspect, but most of the other guys I have spoken with seem to disagree with that.
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post #6 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

That is a good point, and to be honest, when I started out with the idea of building a horn based design, I originally wanted to do a 3 way, but the guys at the Klipsch forum as well as Dave Harris, all seem to think that a 2 way is a major step up in performance compared to a 3 way. It seems to me that a 3 way would be superior to a 2 way in every aspect, but most of the other guys I have spoken with seem to disagree with that.

Everyone has their preferences...

Crossovers are bad. They are a necessary evil. They introduce phase, power, and other frequency dependent problems just to keep the drivers producing their desired frequencies. In that regard, a 2 way will probably have fewer problems than a 3 way.

The problem with a 2 way design is that you usually end up with a crossover in the 1500-2500Hz range. You have to keep the crossover low, if you're using a decent sized bass driver, otherwise you have huge differences in directivity within the bandpass of the woofer. That puts phase, time, and power errors right smack in the upper end of the audible range where human hearing is most sensitive to errors. Harmonics of lower frequencies, space and time cues. Not to mention the directivity issue, which is far worse because unless you're using a very small woofer, the cone is going to be > 1 wavelength, which also means c-c distance to the tweeter is going to be > 1/2 wavelength. So now you've got vertical lobing that's possibly going to be at an angle/frequency to be in the first reflection off the ceiling.

All the best sounding speakers (to my ears) have been 3-way (or more). My top 3 were Dunlavy speakers. Too bad the new owners closed up shop when they didn't make enough money off it after he retired.
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post #7 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

I am going to use an active crossover if I go with the horn based speakers, but, if I go with the conventional speakers I will have someone else do the crossover.
As far as the mid range drivers are concerned, I may go with a Scanspeak Illumntater, but, I am still undecided on the bass drivers. I am trying to keep the price under $1500.00 per speaker.

Wow, you can get something pretty serious without even touching the limits of that budget. For example

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-d3004/6020-10-1-tweeter-deep-chamber/

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-4-midrange/scanspeak-illuminator-12mu/4731t-00-4.5-midrange-4-ohm/

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-woofers/vifa-ne265w-10-woofer-4-ohm/ x2
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post #8 of 14 Old 08-16-2012, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

...I am trying to keep the price under $1500.00 per speaker.

Does that include the crossover and amps for the active version?
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post #9 of 14 Old 08-17-2012, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptomes View Post

Everyone has their preferences...
Crossovers are bad. They are a necessary evil. They introduce phase, power, and other frequency dependent problems just to keep the drivers producing their desired frequencies. In that regard, a 2 way will probably have fewer problems than a 3 way.
The problem with a 2 way design is that you usually end up with a crossover in the 1500-2500Hz range. You have to keep the crossover low, if you're using a decent sized bass driver, otherwise you have huge differences in directivity within the bandpass of the woofer. That puts phase, time, and power errors right smack in the upper end of the audible range where human hearing is most sensitive to errors. Harmonics of lower frequencies, space and time cues. Not to mention the directivity issue, which is far worse because unless you're using a very small woofer, the cone is going to be > 1 wavelength, which also means c-c distance to the tweeter is going to be > 1/2 wavelength. So now you've got vertical lobing that's possibly going to be at an angle/frequency to be in the first reflection off the ceiling.
All the best sounding speakers (to my ears) have been 3-way (or more). My top 3 were Dunlavy speakers. Too bad the new owners closed up shop when they didn't make enough money off it after he retired.


Ok, so I am really starting to think about going with a 3 way speaker instead of a 2 way. If I do end up going with a 3 way configuration, and if I use the 2 inch B&C DE750TN as the tweeter with Dave Harris' 2 inch Eliptrack 400 horns, which mid range and woofer drivers would you recommend? If I go with a 3 way, I will definitely go with an active crossover.
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post #10 of 14 Old 08-17-2012, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you think there are other drivers and horns that I should be considering, as opposed to the B&C DE750TN driver used as a tweeter with Dave Harris' Elip-Track horn, or RAAL, ect...??
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post #11 of 14 Old 08-17-2012, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cptomes View Post

Does that include the crossover and amps for the active version?


No, I already have a separate budget put back from those.
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post #12 of 14 Old 08-19-2012, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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RAAL versus B&C DE750TN how do they compare?


Of course I know that these are two totally different drivers and that they will sound very different, but, what I want to know, is what type of differences will they project? Is the B&C DE750TN anywhere close to as revealing and clear as the RAAL.? Is the B&C a pretty good choice as far as 2 inch CD drivers go?
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post #13 of 14 Old 08-19-2012, 10:34 AM
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My take on the horn tweeter...

Read cptomes' excellent post above again, noting the part about c-c distance and his mention of keeping it under 1/2 wavelength. If you use a horn, you are forced to in tease c-c spacing. When you do that, crossover frequency must lower to avoid excessive spacing relative to wavelength at the crossover frequency.

Thus, IMO, horns make sense when the xo is lower, ie 1khz or less. A three way horn is fine if the lower part is really just a basshorn. Otherwise, stick to two ways or hybrid two ways ala geddes.

The primary benefit of three way (not including sub) is allowing a midrange to help maintain c-c spacing in order to preserve lobing, as well as minimizing xo artifacts in the sensitive frequency range (of which lobing is a serious artifact).

ie, if comparing a compression driver and a scanspeak tweet, you are comparing two entirely different ideas of speaker building.

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post #14 of 14 Old 08-19-2012, 10:50 AM
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Agreed, the philosophy's are completely different. The idea behind a small mid and small face tweeter is to allow the mid to cover say 300hz - 3000hz without off axis issues at the TM xover point, while taking the xover above the critical region. The woofers can then be as serious as one needs for the desired bass capabilities.

A xover point that high makes the tweeter less of an issue, as your ears become less sensitive. The RAAL just doesn't make sense IMO.
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