Electronics burn in - Can we finally put the myth to rest?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 138 Old 08-21-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

In my experience with electronics most companies perform a burn-in before shipping them. . .
This is true for some products, but many massed-produced products simple go through quick automated-testing, and then out the door. Burn-in can be expensive.

When burn-in is used, it is often for about 96 hours, to get past the "infant-mortality" slope of the bathtub curve, not to allow the components to "work-in".
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post #92 of 138 Old 08-21-2012, 03:36 PM
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(by chance were you working in Indiana during those years)

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post #93 of 138 Old 08-21-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Yes except the engineers don't believe in magic - burn-in simply refers to the act or turning equipment on and stress testing it, to see if a part is faulty.
True but untrue. I think a manufacture who develops a amplifier would know whether or not it needs to be burned in. I remember my dad burned in his flat screen, I noticed know difference! I honestly don't understand how running a image for a certain amount of time makes something look better? Capacitors don't need to be burned in, CCFL lights technically have to warm up before the picture is good, as far as linear power supplies is concerned (which are not even used in tvs) "required" a warm up time before they could handle large current loads. Can someone please give a technical reason why tvs must be burned in?

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post #94 of 138 Old 08-21-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

This is true for some products, but many massed-produced products simple go through quick automated-testing, and then out the door. Burn-in can be expensive.
When burn-in is used, it is often for about 96 hours, to get past the "infant-mortality" slope of the bathtub curve, not to allow the components to "work-in".
I do agree that most companies don't perform a burn-in. I think if it was 100% necessary the companies would perform them, but if only let's 5% of the buyers noticed a difference who the hell cares. I think burn-in is like getting a power conditioner; sure it will be less ware and tear on the caps but most likely the caps will last the lifetime of the product.

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post #95 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Yes except the engineers don't believe in magic - burn-in simply refers to the act or turning equipment on and stress testing it, to see if a part is faulty.
True but untrue. I think a manufacture who develops a amplifier would know whether or not it needs to be burned in. I remember my dad burned in his flat screen, I noticed know difference! I honestly don't understand how running a image for a certain amount of time makes something look better? Capacitors don't need to be burned in, CCFL lights technically have to warm up before the picture is good, as far as linear power supplies is concerned (which are not even used in tvs) "required" a warm up time before they could handle large current loads. Can someone please give a technical reason why tvs must be burned in?

tv's don't "burn in"... it's the phosphors in a plasma display that are changing... they tend to change rather rapidly when new (and at different rates) and then settle into a long slow "wearing out"... the "objective" of people "burning in" (which is the incorrect term for it here, it's really "accelerating the initial wear process") plasmas is to get to a point where the phosphors are stable and the set can be properly calibrated... note that this is also accomplished simply by watching the tv, nothing "special" needs to be done...

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post #96 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

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Originally Posted by MarkHotchkiss View Post

This is true for some products, but many massed-produced products simple go through quick automated-testing, and then out the door. Burn-in can be expensive.
When burn-in is used, it is often for about 96 hours, to get past the "infant-mortality" slope of the bathtub curve, not to allow the components to "work-in".
I do agree that most companies don't perform a burn-in. I think if it was 100% necessary the companies would perform them, but if only let's 5% of the buyers noticed a difference who the hell cares. I think burn-in is like getting a power conditioner; sure it will be less ware and tear on the caps but most likely the caps will last the lifetime of the product.

as mark noted... "burn in" by manufacturers isn't to "make a difference" or to "make stuff last longer"... it's so the weak sisters don't make it out the door... electronics have a well defined failure curve (when taken as a whole)... generally speaking (design flaws aside), if a piece of electronics is going to fail, it's going to do so relatively close to the time when it is first "turned on"... if it survives the first few hours of use, it is likely to last for a good long time...

that is why it's done... and as noted, it's not done by many... take a company like bryston*, for example... one of the reasons they can offer a 20 year warrantee is that they don't let weak sisters get out the door... they ensure there are no "out of the box" failures by beating the crap out of the units and stressing them thus keeping all of the "initial failures" in house...

* using them because they are "honest" about what their burn-in process is for...

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post #97 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by kbeam418 View Post

True but untrue. I think a manufacture who develops a amplifier would know whether or not it needs to be burned in. I remember my dad burned in his flat screen, I noticed know difference! I honestly don't understand how running a image for a certain amount of time makes something look better? Capacitors don't need to be burned in, CCFL lights technically have to warm up before the picture is good, as far as linear power supplies is concerned (which are not even used in tvs) "required" a warm up time before they could handle large current loads. Can someone please give a technical reason why tvs must be burned in?
This gets to the crux of the matter. Speakers require breaking in to give optimum performance, because they are mechanical devices. They literally get better with age, but only to a point, and that point is arrived at within at the most weeks, certainly not months. Electronics do not require a break in to reach optimum performance; they don't get better with age, they only get worse. But unless defective they do so very slowly.

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post #98 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 06:18 AM
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I enjoyed this thread...
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Originally Posted by Danielson99 View Post

I'm just going to ignore that...tongue.gif
Isn't this phenomenon better known as the 'bose effect'?
That is funny right there, I don't care who you are! biggrin.gif

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. there was actually a crazy experiment where a person wore glasses that turned the light coming into the eye upside down. at first, the world was all out of wack and the person could not function, but after a while, the brain adopted and the person could function normally even though technically he was seeing the world upside down. at the end of the experiment, when the glasses were removed, the person was all messed up again and could not function until the brain had relearned which way was in fact up.
Yeah, I play a virtual pinball game where there is a table with a mission that switches your flipper controls (right trigger controls left flipper). At first you mess up but get used to it. Then when the mission ends, you continue to hit the 'wrong' flippers. You actually feel weird inside trying to re-adjust your brain-motor functions biggrin.gif

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"...and spent 300.00 on power cords to plug them into the wall."
you spent $300 on power cords?
at first i was laughing my arse off, but then i felt bad because i don't like seeing people taken advantage of, so i'm sorry to hear that.
remember buddy, you are plugging in three feet of cryogenically frozen super copper to 50 feet of home depot solid 12 gauge cheap china power cord before you even get to your box.
then again, there is that darn placebo effect. how could the $300 power cord not sound better to the guy who purchased it?
Just to add on to this: New Wires of sufficient gauge cannot improve the flow of electrons from wires which they are connected. Insufficient gauge will degrade performance though. Consider the wires inside an amplifier to the speaker out jack, then also the wires inside a speaker from the connectors all throughout the speaker, voice coil, etc. How long and thin are they? But some people think a 2k cable that connect the 2 (amp & speaker) will increase performance. Again, sufficient gauge, connecting the 2 to allow the flow of electrons called upon to do the job, is enough. no more, no less.

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To the OP, performance characteristics of capacitors and transistors are known to change measurably over the time frames we're talking about (10s to 100s of hours) especially when heated.
Yes, but I think the idea here is to have 2 PCBs or pieces of gear, that are brand new. You measure them... then you 'burn one in' by using it for X hours. Then you measure the burned in one, and see if it performs BETTER. I think the flavor of the term 'burn-in' is that something will improve after some use...

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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

I often wonder why the companies that make products that "require" long "burn in" times-don't go ahead and "burn them in" before the customer gets the products???
Why make your customer-who has spent a lot of money on the "special" product-suffer through bad sound for a long period of time?
Why not let them enjoy all the benifits that their money has purchased right away?
I bet they would sell more products if they sounded good right away-rather than sounding bad for weeks or months.
Just sayin'
I think you may be on to something here !! "Our products already sound optimal and fantastic to your ears... RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX!!. No need for hundreds of hours of listening to bad music after you spent hundres or even thousands of dollars on your gear!! You DESERVE outstanding sound as soon as you hook up your new system!!" biggrin.gif

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post #99 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 06:59 AM
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I used to visit "Delco" / Kokomo often smile.gif
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post #100 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

tv's don't "burn in"... it's the phosphors in a plasma display that are changing... they tend to change rather rapidly when new (and at different rates) and then settle into a long slow "wearing out"... the "objective" of people "burning in" (which is the incorrect term for it here, it's really "accelerating the initial wear process") plasmas is to get to a point where the phosphors are stable and the set can be properly calibrated... note that this is also accomplished simply by watching the tv, nothing "special" needs to be done...
So the objective is to get the phosphors stable, that makes sense.

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post #101 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

This gets to the crux of the matter. Speakers require breaking in to give optimum performance, because they are mechanical devices. They literally get better with age, but only to a point, and that point is arrived at within at the most weeks, certainly not months. Electronics do not require a break in to reach optimum performance; they don't get better with age, they only get worse. But unless defective they do so very slowly.
So speakers do require a burn-in? Learned something new.

"Then one day you find ten years have got behind you no one told when to run you missed the starting gun."
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post #102 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Few if any say that speaker burn in isn't something that occurs. The surrounds and spider in the drivers flex and give with time. I believe most spiders are hardened with some sort of epoxy that can slowly start to fleck apart which makes the suspension more loose. The question I had was for non moving electronics. I just don't give in to the notion that 50 hours after buying a DAC that its going to sound better.


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post #103 of 138 Old 08-22-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

tv's don't "burn in"... it's the phosphors in a plasma display that are changing... they tend to change rather rapidly when new (and at different rates) and then settle into a long slow "wearing out"... the "objective" of people "burning in" (which is the incorrect term for it here, it's really "accelerating the initial wear process") plasmas is to get to a point where the phosphors are stable and the set can be properly calibrated... note that this is also accomplished simply by watching the tv, nothing "special" needs to be done...

blah, I already said that on the last page.....tongue.gif

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post #104 of 138 Old 08-26-2012, 04:30 AM
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For certain transistors, yes "burn in" does happen. But not in the way in which many people expect:

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ece477/Homework/CommonRefs/CMOS_failure_modes.pdf

That is, as transistors in your stereo equipment age with use, their ability to work as originally manufactured does not improve, it deteriorates.

Also:
http://soe.stanford.edu/research/profiles/infotech_dutton.html
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post #105 of 138 Old 08-26-2012, 11:07 AM
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right, so there is no imaginary 'burn in'.

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post #106 of 138 Old 08-27-2012, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by caper_1 View Post

right, so there is no imaginary 'burn in'.

I would put it this way:

There is no electronic burn-in.

There is apparently tons of imaginary burn-in.
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post #107 of 138 Old 08-27-2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rakosnicek View Post

For certain transistors, yes "burn in" does happen. But not in the way in which many people expect:
https://engineering.purdue.edu/ece477/Homework/CommonRefs/CMOS_failure_modes.pdf
That is, as transistors in your stereo equipment age with use, their ability to work as originally manufactured does not improve, it deteriorates.
Also:
http://soe.stanford.edu/research/profiles/infotech_dutton.html

Don't confuse transistors acting as switches in digital circuits with transistors operating as amplifiers in analog ones. The links you posted deal with the former, which is less interesting for audio because degradation manifests only as slower switching or complete circuit failure.

Transistor amplifier circuits rely on characteristics of transistors that do degrade over time. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread it happens over relatively long periods and is accelerated somewhat by heating or operating way outside of spec.

Hypothetically if the transistors in an amplifier circuit were over spec'd then the amplifier could improve with age, assuming the round cow that everything else stayed constant. The circuit performance would improve as the component degrades. Even given all that, at normal operating temperatures it wouldn't happen in the time periods usually recommended for burn-in.
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post #108 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 01:40 PM
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assuming the round cow

Great old engineering joke, though I though the cow was a sphere.
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post #109 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 03:45 PM
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I'm a firm believer of burn-in for electronics, speakers, cables, you name it. Any time I purchase something knew I ensure I burn them in by throwing on my favorite CD and then indulging in whatever form of alcohol suits my fancy at the time. For hours on end. Make no mistake about it, after an hour or so of burn-in, the speakers, cables, electronics, whatever, sound much warmer, more spacious/airy, better dynamics, you name it. After several hours of burn in however, generally all sounds dissipate into nothingness until I wake up at 2am having to go take a leak. Interestingly, when I do, the sound suddenly takes on this harsh, headache inducing tone. Almost never fails. So don't burn them in for too long at once.

Edit: Please stay away from power cords during this form of burn-in.

 

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post #110 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 04:02 PM
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:-) lots of people have been known to use that method. not sure if that method should be called pbc or pbr.

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post #111 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 04:31 PM
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I'm a firm believer of burn-in for electronics, speakers, cables, you name it. Any time I purchase something knew I ensure I burn them in by throwing on my favorite CD and then indulging in whatever form of alcohol suits my fancy at the time. For hours on end. Make no mistake about it, after an hour or so of burn-in, the speakers, cables, electronics, whatever, sound much warmer, more spacious/airy, better dynamics, you name it. After several hours of burn in however, generally all sounds dissipate into nothingness until I wake up at 2am having to go take a leak. Interestingly, when I do, the sound suddenly takes on this harsh, headache inducing tone. Almost never fails. So don't burn them in for too long at once.
Edit: Please stay away from power cords during this form of burn-in.

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post #112 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I'm a firm believer of burn-in for electronics, speakers, cables, you name it. Any time I purchase something knew I ensure I burn them in by throwing on my favorite CD and then indulging in whatever form of alcohol suits my fancy at the time. For hours on end. Make no mistake about it, after an hour or so of burn-in, the speakers, cables, electronics, whatever, sound much warmer, more spacious/airy, better dynamics, you name it. After several hours of burn in however, generally all sounds dissipate into nothingness until I wake up at 2am having to go take a leak. Interestingly, when I do, the sound suddenly takes on this harsh, headache inducing tone. Almost never fails. So don't burn them in for too long at once.
Edit: Please stay away from power cords during this form of burn-in.

I know of even faster way to burn-in but for no good reasons it's illegal in Illinois frown.gif
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post #113 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 08:16 PM
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If someone thinks they need to 'burn in' anything digital, or cables, I have a bridge I can sell them.
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post #114 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 09:11 PM
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Great old engineering joke, though I though the cow was a sphere.

Yes, I think that's the classic joke, and he's either frictionless or in a vacuum. biggrin.gif But "round cow" just flows much better.
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post #115 of 138 Old 08-28-2012, 09:16 PM
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Yes, I think that's the classic joke, and he's either frictionless or in a vacuum.

Sadly, it has been too many beers and too many years since I heard the joke. But frictionless or in a vacuum works either way for me.
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post #116 of 138 Old 08-29-2012, 01:23 PM
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One way to speed up burn-in - which works particularly well on $300+ cables - is to throw them on the grill for 10-15 minutes, works better than hours of doing it the old-fashioned way.

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post #117 of 138 Old 08-29-2012, 02:58 PM
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Now that there's funny !!
Be aware that the "oxygen free" cables will take more time
Would you also suspend those cables over the grill surface with those fancy little tripod cable elevators ?

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post #118 of 138 Old 08-29-2012, 06:09 PM
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So this

through this

through this

through this

through this

through this

through this



inside a room, with this much echo......




is that about right? biggrin.gifeek.gifrolleyes.gif

"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."


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post #119 of 138 Old 08-30-2012, 05:56 AM
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OMG!!!!!! I have never seen a post with so little said and so spot on!!!!!! You my friend, are a genious. Imagine traveling all that way and a four foot power cord makes it all better.

Thank you for the pics and the most comprehensive post to date.....


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< Garage Audio !!!
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post #120 of 138 Old 08-30-2012, 06:21 PM
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Yeah but you are missing the point... only a BURNED IN power cord makes all the difference. Preferably extra crispy. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

OMG!!!!!! I have never seen a post with so little said and so spot on!!!!!! You my friend, are a genious. Imagine traveling all that way and a four foot power cord makes it all better.
Thank you for the pics and the most comprehensive post to date.....

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