Best Budget 15"/18" subs for sealed boxes? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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So I have been with my 4x 15" sealed MFWs for a while, and I've been getting the itch to upgrade (it happens sooner or later). tongue.gif

A few criteria:

1) I like the characteristics of sealed subs, so I am looking for subs that work well in sealed boxes

2) Budget friendly ($300-$400 per woofer). Looking to build 2.

3) Must present a noticeable upgrade over my current 4x MFWs

So, suggest your drivers please.

Btw, I have an EP2500 to power the subs

Thanks!
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post #2 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 01:37 PM
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Just add 4 more MFW's and another ep2500 biggrin.gif IF you can find em

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post #3 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 01:57 PM
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Or Dayton DVC15's which are pretty much the same thing and more widely available. wink.gif

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post #4 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 02:07 PM
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that might be kind of tough.

even if you up your budget and get 2 x 18uxl's, one ep amp doesn't have enough power.
http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html

you are turning into mk... :-) so why not just find a decent driver and build several more subs.

edit: i see that is what beast and scott just mentioned.

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post #5 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I am afraid that would be the answer. So two LMS-R15 won't get the job done? Unless I spend 5x more for the LMS Ultra?
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post #6 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 03:38 PM
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Two LMS-R 15's is a better choice than a single LMS-U so I'd skip that option and save money. if you're expecting two LMS-R 15's to outgun your MFW's you'll need some horsepower greater than that of the budget friendly Behringer. I would skip straight to the LG clones, in my opinion.

What are you goals? Just more SPL?

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post #7 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, more SPL and digs a little deeper. I am quite happy with 4 MFWs for music. But sometimes I find it a little lacking with movies.

So an EP2500 is not adequate to drive a pair of LMS R-15s?

What else is out there that perform as well as the LMS R-15 but cost a little less? Anything?
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post #8 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 04:41 PM
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A ep2500/4000 can drive a pair of LMS-R 15's but it will leave ~6dB worth of output on the table. In the right sized sealed cab a single one of those can take a good 2,000w each. A ep2500/4000 puts out 650w per channel, 1,300w bridged 8ohm.

Also, "perform" is a broad adjective for a subwoofer driver. One could say that a FiCar branded driver could but would it produce the same kind of output, frequency response or distortion? No. Maybe a couple Dayton DVC15's. You can get 3 for the price of an LMS-R15. Would that compare? Sure. Exactly? No.

You say you want more SPL and for them to "dig deeper". You need displacement and power. It's as simple as that. Well, maybe some EQ/DSP capability but anyway.... You can keep the MFW's and add more and more sealed subs with proper power. Any combination will get you that. You don't need and LMS-R or LMS-U to get that. Unless you have limited floorspace and such. Then you might need drivers like that. Although you can do it with all kinds of driver/amp combinations.

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post #9 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 07:41 PM
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i agree with most everything that scott said, but going down another line, have you checked your e.q. (i assume yes, but just asking)?

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post #10 of 27 Old 08-20-2012, 08:21 PM
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I think adding 4 more DVC's to your MFW's is the smartest move. You could also consider adding something like an NU6000DSP, which should be capable of 1500 watts x2 @ 4ohm, with the ability to eq the response for more low end authority. Wire your four MFW's to 4 ohm for one channel and the DVC's for the other channel.
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post #11 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 06:06 AM
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This thread is of interest to me as well. I am considering building two sealed enclosures each with an 18" driver.

If i could afford the price I would simply go for the LMS Ultra, but, sadly I am not a rich man.

I have heard said that if I have the option to go with a big cabinet, that, there are other 18" drivers that will give the ultra a run for its money. It seems part of the reason the Ultra is so expensive is the technology that allows it to perform well in a relatively small enclosure.

So, with no limit on cabinet size, can I get some ideas on some drivers that will perform at the level of the ultra?

My mains are Aerial Acoustics LR5 (LCR) so I want to build two subs with sound quality to match the Aerials as well as provide decent output and extension.

I have not yet purchased an amp so that too is wide open for options. I prefer something like the inuke6000 with a built in eq.

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz AV8801, Proceed HPA3, Parasound HCA-1206, Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #12 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 06:39 AM
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Check out the new HT drivers from Stereo Integrity. They may release soon, and if they model well for your situation, they may be worth the wait.

bg
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post #13 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

I have heard said that if I have the option to go with a big cabinet, that, there are other 18" drivers that will give the ultra a run for its money. It seems part of the reason the Ultra is so expensive is the technology that allows it to perform well in a relatively small enclosure.

Not necessarily. There is the UXL-18 from Mach5 Audio that goes for ~$500 and performs identically in small sealed boxes.

http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=37

But if you want something that will produce even more bass for less than the price of an LMS-Ultra and use a slightly larger enclosure....

...check out Mach5's FTW-21 21" subwoofer for ~$700 shipped to US.

http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_ftw_21.html

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post #14 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 10:05 AM
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I keep messing with winisd for when I start my purchase of subs for my media room. I was kicking around the idea of 4 Dayton RS 15 inch subs in sealed boxes, but recently have been looking at 2 FiCar Audio Infinite Baffle 18s (IB318) in two very large (60-70 cu ft) sealed boxes. They give about 4dB more output at just about anything under 50 Hz than the 4 daytons, for less money and the same power input. Might be an option.
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post #15 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 10:09 AM
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Do you plan on building two 60-70cuft boxes? eek.gif Hopefully you just mean IB use.

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post #16 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Yes, more SPL and digs a little deeper. I am quite happy with 4 MFWs for music. But sometimes I find it a little lacking with movies.
So an EP2500 is not adequate to drive a pair of LMS R-15s?
What else is out there that perform as well as the LMS R-15 but cost a little less? Anything?

smokarz,

I'm in the same boat as you.
I have 4x MFW15's and it's not enough for me anymore.
I ordered 2x FTW21's and will let you know how much of a difference that will make.

My setup right now is 1 cab per corner in my room.
when I get the FTW21's, I'll be putting them in the back corners and will have the 4x MFW15's in the front.

I totally understand you wanting more cause I feel the same way.
Good luck with what you decide
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post #17 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

I see a very consistent response to my question.

I will keep my 4x MFW-15, and add 2-4 more subs (either 15 or 18) for the additional extension/displacement I am looking.



Fatshaft,

Good luck with your 18"s subs. Keep us posted. Would love to hear your feeback once you got those up and running.
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post #18 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 02:19 PM
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Smokarz and anyone else in the same boat....

I made this comparison sim for you. This is a simulation of 1, 4 and 8 MFW15's (or equivalent). The simulation is run at 300w per driver which in this particular system hits Xmax with no overshoot, giving the owner safe extension down to the bottom single digits if the electronics signal chain allows for it. This should show you why you may feel that there isn't enough output. The bottom line is just a single and if you have quad 15's, one each in the corner you may not see a ton more output than the single. It depends. Same with the middle line which is four. You very may get this kind of output of they are all co-located. The last sim suggests eight of these drivers.

4xMFW15sFR.gif

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post #19 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 03:07 PM
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"I have heard [it] said that if I have the option to go with a big cabinet, that, there are other 18" drivers that will give the ultra a run for its money. It seems part of the reason the Ultra is so expensive is the technology that allows it to perform well in a relatively small enclosure.
So, with no limit on cabinet size, can I get some ideas on some drivers that will perform at the level of the ultra?"

jd, that's not quite all right. you could build a really good system around 4 dayton rss390ho's or -hf's sealed, with one in each corner or each center of the walls (the-hf like larger cabs). an alternative "upgrade" would be the -ho's in 7-8 cubic footers tuned to around 16hz will give you a tremendous amount of spl (>120db) all the way down to 15hz or so and you wouldn't need but about 2000 watts. by going with a largish ported and sacrificing the ultra low stuff that is of debatable value, you can pick up more than 10db at the tuning frequency. that gets you to full reference, with amp, less cost of wood for around $1k.

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post #20 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Smokarz and anyone else in the same boat....
I made this comparison sim for you. This is a simulation of 1, 4 and 8 MFW15's (or equivalent). The simulation is run at 300w per driver which in this particular system hits Xmax with no overshoot, giving the owner safe extension down to the bottom single digits if the electronics signal chain allows for it. This should show you why you may feel that there isn't enough output. The bottom line is just a single and if you have quad 15's, one each in the corner you may not see a ton more output than the single. It depends. Same with the middle line which is four. You very may get this kind of output of they are all co-located. The last sim suggests eight of these drivers.
4xMFW15sFR.gif






Thanks SS.

I got 4x MFW15 lining up my front stage.

That graph suggests I should be getting 120db down to 30hz, and above 110db at 20hz. That should be more than enough for the average listener.

Also, I believe that's where most of the bass lies in the typical movies.

Not sure why I am still feeling bass inadequate.


Edit: Just a thought: What you guys think of those Infinity 12" subs? Maybe I can build two dual opposed Infinity subs, and place them in the middle of my opposing walls. Will I gain much? Those would be cheap builds and still able to run off of my EP2500.
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post #21 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 03:41 PM
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Have you taken any measurements in your room? That might help quite a bit. Perhaps you have insane output at 70hz, and falling, your receiver may turn down the sub such that the low frequencies are now way down in level. A measurements would tell a lot.
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post #22 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Have you taken any measurements in your room? That might help quite a bit. Perhaps you have insane output at 70hz, and falling, your receiver may turn down the sub such that the low frequencies are now way down in level. A measurements would tell a lot.




I did. The graphs are in here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334025/my-first-build-3cf-sealed-mfw-15/210

Guess I need to turn the volume knob up and retake the measurements at much higher SPL.
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post #23 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 04:27 PM
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if you turn off the audyssey, does the bass still sound weak?

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post #24 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if you turn off the audyssey, does the bass still sound weak?


It's actually louder with Audessey. I had a thread discussing Audessey and bass boost.

Perhaps, there's nothing wrong with my system. Maybe it's the itch to make saw dust and the thinking that's there always more bass to be had. tongue.gif
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post #25 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 06:15 PM
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nothing wrong with that. :-)

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post #26 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

It's actually louder with Audessey. I had a thread discussing Audessey and bass boost.
Perhaps, there's nothing wrong with my system. Maybe it's the itch to make saw dust and the thinking that's there always more bass to be had. tongue.gif

This reminds me of Isaac Hayes' character in I'm Gonna Git You Sucka':

"You can never have enough, brother"

Seriously though. Easiest thing to do for an extra 6 clean dB is double what you have. It will also be a reasonably economical option as well. If that is not enough, build 8 F20s to house these drivers and get an extra 12-18dB from 20Hz on up....

JSS
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post #27 of 27 Old 08-21-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Maybe it's the itch to make saw dust and the thinking that's there always more bass to be had. tongue.gif

I totally feel your pain...you're not alone!tongue.gif
BTW, it's 2x 21"s I ordered not 18's.wink.gif
I will definitely let you know my impressions.
Don't forget, this will be an impression from a regular Joe.
I'm far from an expert here, but I know what I want.
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