Fi IB3 18's In The Ceiling? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 08-25-2012, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright guys. I'm pretty well settled on 2 FI Q 18's. Due to room size restraints, this is going to have to be outside of the room. The attic seems like a perfect area for them to go. BTW, these subs are NOT infinite baffle, and do need a box. So, my main question is: how do I build the box in the attic, and secure it to the ceiling joists, while still having it isolated enough to not shake the ceiling?

Link to the FI page: https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/sess/utn15503980974cb44/shopdata/0050_Speakers/0030_Q/product_overview.shopscript
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post #2 of 36 Old 08-25-2012, 09:50 PM
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"BTW, these subs are NOT infinite baffle, and do need a box."

why?

in an *infinite* baffle which is a theoretical construct, they will give a q=0.46, which is pretty close to what some folks like at q=0.50. your attic, isn't an infinite baffle so why the worry?

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post #3 of 36 Old 08-25-2012, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"BTW, these subs are NOT infinite baffle, and do need a box."
why?
in an *infinite* baffle which is a theoretical construct, they will give a q=0.46, which is pretty close to what some folks like at q=0.50. your attic, isn't an infinite baffle so why the worry?
I dunno. I guess Home audio is different from Car audio, but people say that these subs are much better in a nice low tuned ported box. Plus, I've always thought / heard that infinite baffle is pretty much free air... And I've always heard that the bass is sloppy, and doesn't give quite the clean thump that I'm looking for.
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post #4 of 36 Old 08-25-2012, 10:05 PM
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"Plus, I've always thought / heard that infinite baffle is pretty much free air... And I've always heard that the bass is sloppy, and doesn't give quite the clean thump that I'm looking for."

an infinite baffle kind of sets up something like you being inside the subwoofer. the bass is not sloppy...if anything it is a little to dry for some. have you checked out the cult of the infinitly baffled? might be worth taking a look at.

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi

cheers,

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post #5 of 36 Old 08-25-2012, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Plus, I've always thought / heard that infinite baffle is pretty much free air... And I've always heard that the bass is sloppy, and doesn't give quite the clean thump that I'm looking for."
an infinite baffle kind of sets up something like you being inside the subwoofer. the bass is not sloppy...if anything it is a little to dry for some. have you checked out the cult of the infinitly baffled? might be worth taking a look at.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/index.cgi
cheers,
So you're saying that 4 FI IB3 18's would do me well? Because I think they would look better in the setup, but I want to make sure they will actually perform for me too. Also, the key to Infinite Baffle is lots of pink insulation in the attic, right?
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post #6 of 36 Old 08-25-2012, 11:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, the amps I'm looking at are DSP and the high pass can only go down to 20hz. Is that good, or should I get the non-DSP version and figure out some other EQ?
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post #7 of 36 Old 08-26-2012, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Bumpity bump! This build is coming up soon, and I need to get this all figured out.
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post #8 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 09:32 AM
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Don't know about you amp and EQ, but I definitely recommend IB...they aren't sloppy at all...very clean.

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post #9 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 09:33 AM
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Don't know about you amp and EQ, but I definitely recommend IB...they aren't sloppy at all...very clean!

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post #10 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 09:41 AM
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IB is sooo not sloppy. At least in my own setup in my own humble, narrow-minded opinion.
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post #11 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 11:34 AM
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If they were the old Q18's then you could put them in a massive box, a good 100 cu ft easy. They model each 35 cu ft in winisd. If you tune lower than 16hz then a much bigger enclosure (room for enclosure) would be possible.

If they are the new Q18's then no chance.
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post #12 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy1998 View Post

Also, the key to Infinite Baffle is lots of pink insulation in the attic, right?
Nope. The key is just keeping the front wave and the back wave separated. The wall/ceiling does that. Insulation in the attic will only affect how the backwave propagates in the attic. And frankly you don't care what the backwave is doing up there.
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Also, the amps I'm looking at are DSP and the high pass can only go down to 20hz. Is that good, or should I get the non-DSP version and figure out some other EQ?
Is the HPF defeatable? I'm not sure why you'd want one at all. If it's not defeatable and can't be set lower than 20Hz, I'd find a different amplifier. There's way too much content down there to just be chopped off. In my opinion, that's unacceptable on a system of the level you're talking about.

Have you read the FAQ over at the cult linked by LTD02 above?

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #13 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Don't know about you amp and EQ, but I definitely recommend IB...they aren't sloppy at all...very clean.
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Originally Posted by keager View Post

IB is sooo not sloppy. At least in my own setup in my own humble, narrow-minded opinion.
Sounds fair. I was worried that the subs would have no back pressure, and thus move pretty freely. But I guess you guys have cleared that up for me wink.gif
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Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

If they were the old Q18's then you could put them in a massive box, a good 100 cu ft easy. They model each 35 cu ft in winisd. If you tune lower than 16hz then a much bigger enclosure (room for enclosure) would be possible.
If they are the new Q18's then no chance.
Well, I don't even own the subs in question, so they would be the "new ones". I have decided from this thread that IB is going to be my best option.
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Nope. The key is just keeping the front wave and the back wave separated. The wall/ceiling does that. Insulation in the attic will only affect how the backwave propagates in the attic. And frankly you don't care what the backwave is doing up there.
Is the HPF defeatable? I'm not sure why you'd want one at all. If it's not defeatable and can't be set lower than 20Hz, I'd find a different amplifier. There's way too much content down there to just be chopped off. In my opinion, that's unacceptable on a system of the level you're talking about.
Have you read the FAQ over at the cult linked by LTD02 above?
Ooh, okay. So, I would want lost of sound insulation in the room some how, right? To dampen echoes and stuff.

The amp is a Behringer NU3000DSP. I have not seen a way to disable the high pass, but I thought I heard somewhere that I can.
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post #14 of 36 Old 08-27-2012, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Salvini View Post

525x525px-LL-b56b9559_vbattach192673.jpeg
525x525px-LL-d3061143_vbattach192674.jpeg
525x525px-LL-638cea17_vbattach192675.jpeg

Alright guys. I was just reading through some Infinite Baffle builds, and I found that. However, from what I've gathered, those are mids, not subs. So, would the same type of application work for IB subs? I mean having the speakers recessed with a little angled piece to direct the sound.
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post #15 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Insulation in the attic will only affect how the backwave propagates in the attic. And frankly you don't care what the backwave is doing up there.
It's probably not problem with normal attic installation, but with more massively build backspace like concrete cellar modes are affecting also to other side of driver.

Yesterday I tested this with my cellar IB and throw two box of acoustic tiles to cellar room and those had significant effect to propagation times measured from theater side.
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So, would the same type of application work for IB subs? I mean having the speakers recessed with a little angled piece to direct the sound.
Can be done but it's not needed with sub frequencies. Below 80Hz radiates to all directions, so usually manifold is assembled to attic side. Gives cleaner look when you don't have box elevated to ceiling, just opening with grill cloth matched to ceiling color.
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post #16 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 05:48 AM
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To answer your intial question about eliminating shaking: bulild a manifold up in the attic that drops down through your ceiling and is covered by a grill cloth. In the attic end of it, mount the woofers in dual-opposed pairs. Better yet, build two manifolds, each for a dual-opposed pair, with some separation between as multiple subs generally give a smoother response. With dual-opposed, the cone movement forces cancel out and there is no shaking...
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post #17 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy1998 View Post

I found that. However, from what I've gathered, those are mids, not subs. So, would the same type of application work for IB subs? I mean having the speakers recessed with a little angled piece to direct the sound.

John Salvini's listening room is quite large, but it's not so large that he's using eight 18" Avalanche drivers as "mids"

Bass is more or less omnidirectional so it doesn't matter what direction the drivers are facing.
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post #18 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ile View Post

It's probably not problem with normal attic installation, but with more massively build backspace like concrete cellar modes are affecting also to other side of driver.
Yesterday I tested this with my cellar IB and throw two box of acoustic tiles to cellar room and those had significant effect to propagation times measured from theater side.
Can be done but it's not needed with sub frequencies. Below 80Hz radiates to all directions, so usually manifold is assembled to attic side. Gives cleaner look when you don't have box elevated to ceiling, just opening with grill cloth matched to ceiling color.
Yeah. I still plan on insulating the attic a bit though. I might be doing another IB setup in a nearby room, and I don't want the waves transferring between the two.
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Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

John Salvini's listening room is quite large, but it's not so large that he's using eight 18" Avalanche drivers as "mids"
Bass is more or less omnidirectional so it doesn't matter what direction the drivers are facing.
Whoops. I didn't see the 4 on the other side, so I though it was a center channel speaker.
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post #19 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Is the HPF defeatable? I'm not sure why you'd want one at all. If it's not defeatable and can't be set lower than 20Hz, I'd find a different amplifier. There's way too much content down there to just be chopped off. In my opinion, that's unacceptable on a system of the level you're talking about.
Hmm. Shouldn't I have some sort of cutoff though? I've heard that some extremely low frequencies (like 8 Hz) can actually damage your subs.
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Below 80Hz radiates to all directions, so usually manifold is assembled to attic side. Gives cleaner look when you don't have box elevated to ceiling, just opening with grill cloth matched to ceiling color.
Interesting. This is going in my bedroom, which is (H x L x W) 10 x 20 x 10. I also have a few computers, and I would really prefer to build the speakers for those as well. Could I use the IB subs, and just use a mixer or something similar to mix the sub signals? Since the sound will radiate around the room. They are going to be "aimed" completely away from the computer area, but I doubt that will affect it.
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post #20 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 08:29 PM
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Hmm. Shouldn't I have some sort of cutoff though? I've heard that some extremely low frequencies (like 8 Hz) can actually damage your subs.
Interesting. This is going in my bedroom, which is (H x L x W) 10 x 20 x 10.

Nope. Low frequencies don't hurt drivers. What hurts drivers is over-excursion. It's true that some people reach excursion limits at low frequencies. Luckily for you, those aren't the people running 4 18" drivers in a relatively small room. If you follow through with this plan, yours should be fine. And maybe this will make you feel better: drivers make some nasty noises when they hit their excursion limits. Usually people know they're pushing the limits before they break something. If I'm wrong and you do run out of headroom, you should be able to tell and do something about it (like add a HPF or just turn it down) before any permanent damage is done.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #21 of 36 Old 08-28-2012, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

Nope. Low frequencies don't hurt drivers. What hurts drivers is over-excursion. It's true that some people reach excursion limits at low frequencies. Luckily for you, those aren't the people running 4 18" drivers in a relatively small room. If you follow through with this plan, yours should be fine. And maybe this will make you feel better: drivers make some nasty noises when they hit their excursion limits. Usually people know they're pushing the limits before they break something. If I'm wrong and you do run out of headroom, you should be able to tell and do something about it (like add a HPF or just turn it down) before any permanent damage is done.
Alright. Sounds good. I plan on using a distortion detector to tune the amp, and the amp should put out less than the rated power of the subs. And Fi's are known for taking way more power than they're rated for, so I should be alright.
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post #22 of 36 Old 08-29-2012, 05:59 PM
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Was just reading through the thread. I must admit that is badass looking and I'm sure it sounds much better. Maybe one day I'll have something similar, but for now I'm fine with my single 18" FI Q

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post #23 of 36 Old 08-29-2012, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Was just reading through the thread. I must admit that is badass looking and I'm sure it sounds much better. Maybe one day I'll have something similar, but for now I'm fine with my single 18" FI Q
Good luck bud! The IB3's are like $240, or $220 if you buy 4 or more. Insanely cheap for what people say they will do. I hope I will be able to back that up!
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post #24 of 36 Old 08-29-2012, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys. I've noticed one more thing. Everyone seems to use a square / rectangle box in the attic for the subs. I planned on using something like a triangle. Even though everyone says bass is omnidirectional, I can actually hear the difference. And I prefer the bass aimed at the back of my head.



BTW, I can also hear down to like 15Hz.
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post #25 of 36 Old 08-29-2012, 10:24 PM
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That would create excessive vibration because the drivers aren't directly across from each other.
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post #26 of 36 Old 08-30-2012, 05:05 AM
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You can "hear the difference" in what exactly? The shape of a manifold? I've never seen such a claim before. If you can reliably hear a difference such as that in a properly setup system and a properly setup test, I for one would be pretty surprised.

Basically you can make the manifold whatever shape you want. But if you want to take advantage of complete cancellation of the mechanical reaction forces, find a way to get those drivers on axis with each other and moving in opposition.

The limits of what people can hear usually depends on the SPL of the test. Retest at a lower level, and you probably won't hear down to 15Hz anymore. Turn it up and you might hear lower. But be careful not to confuse the limits of hearing with the limits of perception. Infrasonic content recorded on a disc is very noticeable and contributes to a realistic experience. In other words, not being able to hear below 15Hz doesn't mean that everything below there isn't worth reproducing.

I'm not into "thumbs upping" or "liking". Don't take it personally. Just assume that I found your post helpful. Unless it wasn't.
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post #27 of 36 Old 08-30-2012, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pitviper33 View Post

You can "hear the difference" in what exactly? The shape of a manifold? I've never seen such a claim before. If you can reliably hear a difference such as that in a properly setup system and a properly setup test, I for one would be pretty surprised.
Basically you can make the manifold whatever shape you want. But if you want to take advantage of complete cancellation of the mechanical reaction forces, find a way to get those drivers on axis with each other and moving in opposition.
The limits of what people can hear usually depends on the SPL of the test. Retest at a lower level, and you probably won't hear down to 15Hz anymore. Turn it up and you might hear lower. But be careful not to confuse the limits of hearing with the limits of perception. Infrasonic content recorded on a disc is very noticeable and contributes to a realistic experience. In other words, not being able to hear below 15Hz doesn't mean that everything below there isn't worth reproducing.
I dunno... I can just tell the difference when subs are in front vs behind, and I prefer the sounds of the subs in the back.
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post #28 of 36 Old 08-30-2012, 03:42 PM
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Jeremy, welcome to AVS.

Be mindful that the manifold is not a trivial component to an IB. There are many before you that have paved the way, and you can take what they've learned and save yourself much effort and money. Also, many of the typical ideas individuals possess upon first considering a manifold IB, normal intuitive ideas, don't necessarily correlate with the manner in which IB bass acoustically couple to the room. I liken a normal manifold to that of a compression driver.

Yes, the triangle idea is one many first contemplate. The thinking includes some measure of horn loading, etc., however a normal dual opposed manifold configuration has many benefits otherwise not realized with lesser approaches. The forces are significant, and dual opposed cancels these. Many a build goes somewhat compromised due to reactionary wall/ceiling movements due to not utilizing either a dual opposed config, or significant baffle engineering efforts to mitigate the motional losses.

Any additional information regarding your build, your room?



Thanks

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
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post #29 of 36 Old 08-30-2012, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeremy, welcome to AVS.
Be mindful that the manifold is not a trivial component to an IB. There are many before you that have paved the way, and you can take what they've learned and save yourself much effort and money. Also, many of the typical ideas individuals possess upon first considering a manifold IB, normal intuitive ideas, don't necessarily correlate with the manner in which IB bass acoustically couple to the room. I liken a normal manifold to that of a compression driver.
Yes, the triangle idea is one many first contemplate. The thinking includes some measure of horn loading, etc., however a normal dual opposed manifold configuration has many benefits otherwise not realized with lesser approaches. The forces are significant, and dual opposed cancels these. Many a build goes somewhat compromised due to reactionary wall/ceiling movements due to not utilizing either a dual opposed config, or significant baffle engineering efforts to mitigate the motional losses.
Any additional information regarding your build, your room?
Thanks
Hmm. In normal situations, it is bad to have your subs "opposing" each other. So, I guess the rules are different in IB?
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post #30 of 36 Old 08-30-2012, 06:01 PM
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Hmm. In normal situations, it is bad to have your subs "opposing" each other. So, I guess the rules are different in IB?

Thats not really true, your placement will depend on your room, sub orientation not so much. In my room, I have 2 stacks of my 4 x 21's opposing each other and get get the best results in my room that way.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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