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post #331 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Doesn't the gain sensitivity change when going from stereo to bridged with an amplifier?

Good question, maybe?

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post #332 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Good question, maybe?

That's a good question...
What I can tell you is that with the EP4000 I had the opposite effect.
I had to lower the amp settings when I was in bridged mode.

With the 10000Q I can go louder.
Maybe this amp is designed this way?

That's why I'm asking someone who has a 10000Q to try it to see if they get the same results.

My Build Thread
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3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #333 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Good question, maybe?

Yes. It increases.
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post #334 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 03:21 PM
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I thought so. Could explain why you get the same output for a lower setting, Fatshaft. That and co-locating the subs helps too. wink.gif

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post #335 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Good question, maybe?

Answer is yes. Remember the 3dB rule. Adjust your volume control to the same level you had in stereo mode and in bridged mode it *will* be louder. Also keep in mind that damping factor drops by 50% with transistor-based amps when run in bridged mode.

You guys are crazy....
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post #336 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

Answer is yes. Remember the 3dB rule. Adjust your volume control to the same level you had in stereo mode and in bridged mode it *will* be louder. Also keep in mind that damping factor drops by 50% with transistor-based amps when run in bridged mode.

You have sparked my memory and that is one of the things that Thilo from TC Sounds mentioned as a + for driving the LMS Ultra's dual coils separately rather than bridging the amp. Since we have an expert here can you expound on the best way to run an amp?

I also wondered what would happen if a 2 channel amp had 1 channel fail when using it to drive a sub with dual VC's separately? My guess is the sub would still work but with half the power?

I really would appreciate any knowledge you could add to this, it can be very confusing to a lot of people including myself.

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post #337 of 356 Old 10-12-2012, 10:39 PM
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I'll try to check it out. I'll only be able to do this test with one amp but thats not a problem. I know exactly where it starts reaching its max pretty much with all possible settings. If it does put out more power then it could help my weird situation of channel 1 on one of the amps clipping earlier than the rest.
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post #338 of 356 Old 10-13-2012, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

Answer is yes. Remember the 3dB rule. Adjust your volume control to the same level you had in stereo mode and in bridged mode it *will* be louder.
You'll also probably get 6dB of voltage gain by bridging.
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Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

Also keep in mind that damping factor drops by 50% with transistor-based amps when run in bridged mode.
Still insignificant. My Quest goes from 11.4mΩ to 22.8mΩ output impedance when bridged. Big deal.
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post #339 of 356 Old 10-13-2012, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Still insignificant. My Quest goes from 11.4mΩ to 22.8mΩ output impedance when bridged. Big deal.

Indeed, not for that unit. Other designs using less negative feedback may be affected.

You guys are crazy....
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post #340 of 356 Old 10-13-2012, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

You have sparked my memory and that is one of the things that Thilo from TC Sounds mentioned as a + for driving the LMS Ultra's dual coils separately rather than bridging the amp. Since we have an expert here can you expound on the best way to run an amp?
I also wondered what would happen if a 2 channel amp had 1 channel fail when using it to drive a sub with dual VC's separately? My guess is the sub would still work but with half the power?
I really would appreciate any knowledge you could add to this, it can be very confusing to a lot of people including myself.

The term 'damping factor' is pretty much irrelevant these days since high power designs normally use quite a bit of negative feedback to control distortion. More negative feedback results in a lower output impedance and therefore a much higher damping factor rating. So if product X states a damping factor of 500 in stereo mode, bridged it would be 250. Even this number is more than high enough, and you wouldn't notice a difference sonically. Distortion ratings also increase in bridged mode.

Personally, I would not run a dual voice coil on separate channels unless I could guaranty they were equally balanced and could stay that way. The best way to accomplish that would be by scoping the outputs. And yes, if you had one channel fail your ears would certainly notice it.

You guys are crazy....
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post #341 of 356 Old 10-13-2012, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

Indeed, not for that unit. Other designs using less negative feedback may be affected.
Or less output devices. My lowest rated unit out of the 20 or so SS amps I have is 200, and it only used 2 pairs of output BJTs/channel.
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Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

The term 'damping factor' is pretty much irrelevant these days since high power designs normally use quite a bit of negative feedback to control distortion. More negative feedback results in a lower output impedance and therefore a much higher damping factor rating. So if product X states a damping factor of 500 in stereo mode, bridged it would be 250. Even this number is more than high enough, and you wouldn't notice a difference sonically.
Amp designers have been using swathes of NFB to control Zout for decades. Amps in the spec wars era (70s) were regularly posted with values up near 1000. DF is a marketing spec number that has little practical use as it is taken at the amp speaker terminals, and plummets when cable and connector impedances are added.

The Quest example I used has a specified DF of 700.
As I have a pair of FTW21 and intend to use them sealed in about 200L and will use a roughly 10m run of 6mm² building wire (circa 9.5AWG) and driven by my Yamaha P7000S (DF = 350). So in this application and using the BCAE calculator shows a total Zsource of 0.0816Ω single ended and 0.1044Ω bridged including cable. The difference is a mere 23mΩ. Unibox shows a Zmin for the FTW21 in my box of 3.28Ω at around 100Hz; the difference the additional series impedance will make in terms of FR is about 0.03dB.
The LG is specced with a Zout of 19mΩ so not much different.
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Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

Distortion ratings also increase in bridged mode.
Still not to any noticeable degree on any amp not clipping, and especially not for a sub. Distortion will not necessarily double when bridging because even order non linearities will cancel to some extent and odd order will add but even if it did double, 2 x 0.01% is still irrelevant.
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post #342 of 356 Old 10-13-2012, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Still not to any noticeable degree on any amp not clipping, and especially not for a sub. Distortion will not necessarily double when bridging because even order non linearities will cancel to some extent and odd order will add but even if it did double, 2 x 0.01% is still irrelevant.

Yes. Certainly dependent on what the fundamental measurement was/is. I cannot recall if distortion increases linearly, exponentially or logarithmically *scratches head*...

You guys are crazy....
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post #343 of 356 Old 10-13-2012, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mrogowski View Post

Yes. Certainly dependent on what the fundamental measurement was/is. I cannot recall if distortion increases linearly, exponentially or logarithmically *scratches head*...
It will depend upon the shape of the transfer function of the amp. If any two given amp channels are perfectly identical, even order will perfectly cancel and odd order will perfectly add. No two channels are identical so I added "to some extent' as you'd need to measure to determine exactly for each given implementation. Transfer function will be determined by the topology and actual devices used in the amp.
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post #344 of 356 Old 10-15-2012, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the MiniDSP today and have been playing with it a bit now so I have a pretty noob/basic question.

1st of all just wanted to let everyone know so that I hope nobody goes through what I did.
I wasted about 5 f%&& hours of my life today trying to get this thing to connect. Extremely frustrating.
I tried 9 different 12 volt plugs. every single one I cut and connected. Went to the store and bought some for nothing! All that to find out that the problem was the &^%%$^$^ USB cable they supplied...it was defective!!! As soon as I changed it every single plug I tried worked!!!!!

Anyways...

I'm boosting the low end and am wondering if anyone can give me some sound advice on the "don't do that" or "that's OK" type of thing.

Right now I'm finding a sort of sweet spot (by ear of course) and am sort of wondering if it's OK or not to do so.

I've put the following on the EQ output:
10HZ +7DB
20HZ +4DB
30HZ +2DB
45HZ +0.4DB
60HZ +/-0DB
75HZ -2DB

This sounds pretty dam good to me.
IS there anything else I should know?

Should I be worried with a gain of +7DB on the 10HZ scale? Is it too much?

many thanks in advance

PS. Audiovideoholic, still waiting on your impressions with running the clones in bridge mode...thanks

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3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
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post #345 of 356 Old 10-15-2012, 05:35 PM
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Without REW results, you'll never know. That being said, 7dB is quite a bit but if the amps not clipping and the subs not starting on fire, you should be good to go biggrin.gif

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post #346 of 356 Old 10-15-2012, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Without REW results, you'll never know. That being said, 7dB is quite a bit but if the amps not clipping and the subs not starting on fire, you should be good to go biggrin.gif

then I think I'll do it differently....don't like the fire thingie eek.gif

thanks N8

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Equipment Speakers:
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4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
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post #347 of 356 Old 10-15-2012, 06:24 PM
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then I think I'll do it differently....don't like the fire thingie eek.gif
thanks N8

Someone else back me up, but I've always read that is is better to cut vs. boost. As Natr mentioned, it's hard to tell where you are at without measurements. Once you get your measurements you should (in theory) be able to make higher cuts to your 60hz & 75hz region, thus reducing the need for the 10hz boost.

Am I making sense?
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post #348 of 356 Old 10-15-2012, 06:25 PM
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Thanks cor that Fatshaft. I need a new cord then. Mine has been sitting and collecting dust because I could not get it to connect.rolleyes.gif
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post #349 of 356 Old 10-15-2012, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Thanks for that Fatshaft. I need a new cord then. Mine has been sitting and collecting dust because I could not get it to connect.rolleyes.gif

Let me know if it's that!...thanks

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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Someone else back me up, but I've always read that is is better to cut vs. boost. As Natr mentioned, it's hard to tell where you are at without measurements. Once you get your measurements you should (in theory) be able to make higher cuts to your 60hz & 75hz region, thus reducing the need for the 10hz boost.
Am I making sense?

Well, that's exactly it...Stupid me, I played test tones from 10 to 90HZ (increments of 5) and now have totally changed my settings.
popa is right, I have max boosted @ +1DB for the 20 and 45HZ and now have -9DB on the 80HZ tone.

I adjusted every single test tone till they were all at the same volume/output with my ears of course.
What's driving me nuts is I can't figure out if I should keep the Polarity inverted or not.
Is there a trick to know which way is best?

thanks

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #350 of 356 Old 10-16-2012, 08:36 AM
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Your subs are sealed, a nice low end boost is a good thing, not bad, you just have to do it right. It is called an LT boost or Linkwitz Transform. I'm not familiar with the Mini but I bet there is an option to have one of those applied to your signal and it wont get you into trouble. It is true that cutting is better than boosting, but not in the case of the sealed LT boost I just mentioned, it is necessary to get some more performance out of any sealed setup down low. Room gain gets you part of the way there, but a proper LT will transform that system completely...again!!! I will repeat myself for the 3rd time, it has to be done right, and I hope someone chimes in on the Mini's ability to do this. You seemed pretty close with your initial settings, but 7db could still get you into trouble. Then again, we can't really tell you for sure because we dont know if you are running the subs hot, cold, stale, or any other way right now.

As the others have stated, you have way too much capability to NOT have a measurement system. Your ears are your ears and always do what sounds best to you, but you REALLY REALLY need to get something to actually SEE what your system is doing. boosting and cutting and whatever else is all in vain if you can't actually see your response.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-792

JUST DO IT

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post #351 of 356 Old 10-16-2012, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Your subs are sealed, a nice low end boost is a good thing, not bad, you just have to do it right. It is called an LT boost or Linkwitz Transform. I'm not familiar with the Mini but I bet there is an option to have one of those applied to your signal and it wont get you into trouble. It is true that cutting is better than boosting, but not in the case of the sealed LT boost I just mentioned, it is necessary to get some more performance out of any sealed setup down low. Room gain gets you part of the way there, but a proper LT will transform that system completely...again!!! I will repeat myself for the 3rd time, it has to be done right, and I hope someone chimes in on the Mini's ability to do this. You seemed pretty close with your initial settings, but 7db could still get you into trouble. Then again, we can't really tell you for sure because we dont know if you are running the subs hot, cold, stale, or any other way right now.
As the others have stated, you have way too much capability to NOT have a measurement system. Your ears are your ears and always do what sounds best to you, but you REALLY REALLY need to get something to actually SEE what your system is doing. boosting and cutting and whatever else is all in vain if you can't actually see your response.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-792
JUST DO IT

Beast, thanks soo much for your input and I would like to apologize to you and everyone else here.
I realize that I'm asking for guidance but on your end it's like shooting in the dark cause nobody knows my settings.
I totally understand that a graph would speak volumes so I will try to do a graph by the weekend.
This stuff is overwhelming for me but I have no choice to learn it.
I realize that this would help everyone here especially me!

I know what to ask for this XMAS...thanks for the suggestion.

I had a friend who use to know this stuff but he has moved on redface.gif

I would like to share a graph he had done about 2 years ago with my 15's and BEFORE I redid my whole HT Room.

IIRC, green was with the fronts on Large and red with the fronts X'd at 80HZ.
1sttest.jpg

I'm hoping to give you a graph like that by the weekend...thank you all for all the help again...I appreciate it!

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #352 of 356 Old 10-16-2012, 11:58 AM
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Here is the MiniDSP page for more info on an LT which as beast already suggested would be the preferred boost to use for the low end: http://www.minidsp.com/applications/advanced-tools/linkwitz-transform

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post #353 of 356 Old 10-16-2012, 12:04 PM
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Not too shabby smile.gif I will almost guarantee the FTW's will keep you from having that slight drop from 30hz on. That graph also helps me to understand that before you had these wired up, that you had heard pretty substantial bass in your space before smile.gif Often times people are shaken by their first bass experience, and who knows if it is just a good 100db sub system or a 125db sub system, there is a big difference!!! Now I realize that your impressions are that these are far away better and more potent than your old 15" system so you really made a worthwhile jump smile.gif

I hope you didnt think I was upset you couldnt get readings for your response. It just really does help all of us that can't hear what you are doing. I'd almost send you my omnimic so you could play and tweak for a little while, but I need it right now to measure the new additions myself smile.gif

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post #354 of 356 Old 10-23-2012, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, nothing to see here except a happy camper who's in love with a tremendous amount of BASS!

Been playing with the MiniDSP and what a wonderful invention. A must've for bassheads!

My Build Thread
Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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post #355 of 356 Old 10-24-2012, 08:10 AM
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Buhhhhhh. Speaker graveyard...Gross

Didn't you get new ones sent to you from Mach5?

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post #356 of 356 Old 10-24-2012, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Buhhhhhh. Speaker graveyard...Gross
Didn't you get new ones sent to you from Mach5?

Yes I did and they are playing beautifully...thanks for asking and thanks for your offer with the mic.
I'll eventually take some time to post measurements but am overwhelmed with the task for now...

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Equipment Speakers:
3x 1099's for LCR duty
4x Fusion 8's for surround duty
8x subs: 4x FTW21's and 4x SI18's
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