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post #181 of 356 Old 09-27-2012, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

No rant there bro! I love reading these kinds of posts, especially after going through pretty much the same thing not to long ago. smile.gif

Thanks and congrats on your quads too! must be awesome!!!
Saw you're thread and can't believe how thick your front baffle is! 4 layers eek.gif WOW!
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Make sure you have the amp set to maximum wink.gif but just make sure you don't cook your subs in the process.
(83V would be the safe value FYI)

BassThatHz,

Your picture shows that you're running yours at MAX at 150V?
Why do I have to set mine up to 83V? sorry just asking.
I'm going to look at where they are at right now.
Thanks

EDIT:

Here's where mine is set.
IMG_9197.jpg
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post #182 of 356 Old 09-27-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Quick update....
Daughter called from work so paused the movie so that my son can go pick her up. Watching an old movie because I wanna wait to watch the good stuff when I have all 4 working.
Before I started the movie...
Knowing that Mark will be sending the 2 replacement subs..I decided to crank the volume a little more this time with my son in the room.
audiovideoholic is right...these things are absolutely insane.
I put my amps bass output from -2 to 0 and cranked the volume to -8 on "bass I love you" and holy sh!t. I had problems seeing the screen. It felt like my hair was going straight like as if I had major static. It's crazy!!!
BUT
That only lasted for a few seconds cause the defective sub was clanking like crazy. It really scared me. I can't believe how loud the clanking was and to my surprise it still works!
Guys these 21's are absolutely crazy...Never expected that this much output was possible...I'm almost afraid of doing this with 4 good ones.
But I can't wait!
The only time I felt so much output was at the last RUSH show I was at in Montreal almost 2 years ago. That show was pounding like crazy and can't wait to see them again Oct. 18th biggrin.gif
Anyways to those who bought these and raved about them...I just want to say I understand now...there's no words to describe it.
Sorry for the rant... wink.gif

Sorry to hear about your troubles....BUT, at least you have a better idea of what's to come!!! These 21's just rock...on the ULF scenes, there is just a 'weightiness' to the room from the pressure. I can't imagine FOUR of these monsters!!!! eek.gif

 

Speaking of Rush, the blu-ray Snakes and Arrows is a must for the drum solo: De Slagwerker (Drum Solo) 10:41

 

Not a ULF monster per say, but shows off the tightness and dynamics of your sub! I literally turn this disc up to +3db or even higher on the MV. It just f***in rocks.

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post #183 of 356 Old 09-27-2012, 08:43 PM
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I'd put the VCL switches to what closes matches your situation. And the db switches as high as can unless introduces hum.

Your enclosures limit the xmax so would go with 101 or 121 and 44db if can up it without hum. If your enclosures allow you to set the VCL to the highest then I dont see why you wouldnt want to up it. As long as it is engaged and working and you know how your boxes modeled you will be fine. Bosso has mentioned many times about bridging the amp and how it basically over rides the VCL, that would be the only time I would worry about gains.

But dont up all settings then blast it with sub 20hz content until you know how the system will react at the ULFs.

And keep the settings you have on the Hard setting.
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post #184 of 356 Old 09-27-2012, 10:29 PM
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Is that track available on soundcloud?

Its sounds pretty good on my little system. biggrin.gif Cant wait to get my Fp14000 for the subs though.
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post #185 of 356 Old 09-29-2012, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Is that track available on soundcloud?
Its sounds pretty good on my little system. biggrin.gif Cant wait to get my Fp14000 for the subs though.

Not sure who you are asking this question too...
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post #186 of 356 Old 09-29-2012, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys,

Yesterday I played a little with my system and noticed something.
I have 1 sub per corner.
2x fully working 21" subs
1x defective 21" sub (Sounds normal at low volume) and
1x 15" sub

God forbid and can't believe what I am going to write now frown.gif

I 'm finding myself turning the bass down...Is this normal? It feels like there's too much!
Not when watching a movie but when listening to music.

I know we always joke about not having too much...but I have a feeling that I DO have too much!
Is something wrong?
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post #187 of 356 Old 09-29-2012, 04:47 AM
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Your post at #173 with your youtube video.

Sounded like a song I would want to have if I could find it in its original HQ state.

Nothings wrongs with you. Certain music has a lot of bass and can be overwhelming. Enya for instance has a lot of bass in certain songs and it is just too much at times. But then other songs lack bass. Movies I always seem to be turning up the bass. I read how others feel this or hear this during playback of a movie and wonder why I dont feel the same.

I have a few go to tracks when listening and if they dont have me feeling like an overwhelmed clubber than I need more. And movies I dont think I will ever have enough until I have a Ricci, or Not system.
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post #188 of 356 Old 09-29-2012, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Chrapladm,

I have 1000's of that type of music and is about 90% of what I listen too...This type of music has ALOT of bass...
Here's another one for you...
It's called A Figliulina by Cell

At the 1:04 mark is where it starts (the good part) biggrin.gif
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post #189 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Guys,
I have 1 sub per corner.
2x fully working 21" subs
1x defective 21" sub (Sounds normal at low volume) and
1x 15" sub
God forbid and can't believe what I am going to write now frown.gif
I know we always joke about not having too much...but I have a feeling that I DO have too much!

Oh come on! a few 21's isn't THAT loud! Double or nothing wink.gif
Question: Has she banished you to the detached bass-bunker yet, or threatened to otherwise murder you with an axe in your sleep?
and what about your neighbors, how are you getting along with them, now?
haha biggrin.gif
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post #190 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Question: Has she banished you to the detached bass-bunker yet, or threatened to otherwise murder you with an axe in your sleep?

Incorrect..."I" have banished HER from MY bunker!!! wink.gif
Quote:
and what about your neighbors, how are you getting along with them, now?
haha biggrin.gif

When you'll have your bunker done, you'll understand why that's a stupid question biggrin.gif
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post #191 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

When you'll have your bunker done, you'll understand why that's a stupid question biggrin.gif

Ok, now you have me interested, what SPL do you get outside "the room"? Obviously nothing but bass, if anything at all.
I'm trying to figure out roughly what to expect out of mine when it's finished... and it's great because your system is very similar to mine, my system is equivalent to about ~3.5 21's worth of displacement at the moment.
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post #192 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll do better than that.

I have a DB meter and will take a measurement from inside the room then outside the room to then outside the house.
I will do this when I get my four subs all connected and ready to go.

Regards,
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post #193 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 03:49 PM
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Well of course you'll have more bass. You keep adding subs, you're gonna keep adding dB's unless it's calibrated. When I calibrate for audyssey pro at 75dB's, my amps gains are one notch above off and even then they are at 80dB. With my system fully calibrated, I run my amps at 12 o'clock, otherwise they are WAY to loud, even with the sub trim at -15.

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post #194 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Well of course you'll have more bass. You keep adding subs, you're gonna keep adding dB's unless it's calibrated. When I calibrate for audyssey pro at 75dB's, my amps gains are one notch above off and even then they are at 80dB. With my system fully calibrated, I run my amps at 12 o'clock, otherwise they are WAY to loud, even with the sub trim at -15.

I find that my system is the complete opposite. I have to have sub trim at a positive or the bass will not get loud until reference which is calibrated to 10 hot in any situation that I calibrate it. But, it may be my AVR is different with the output, who knows. Its a Denon 4311. I just find the bass really is lacking unless the amps along with the sub trim are both turned up.
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post #195 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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My LFE trim goes from -10DB to 0DB. It's set at -6DB.
MY sub out (I have a .2 sub out) goes from -10DB to +10DB. It is set at -2 for the front subs and -4 for the back subs.
The amp setting (10000Q) is at 2oclock setting.

This is with 3 FTW21's right now and it's PLENTY bass right now.

The THX demo, with the mushrooms, has UNREAL bass output!

All my Pysbient music also has unreal amounts of bass. Maybe my Receiver has alot of bass output! (HK 7550HD)

I'm really enjoying my subs right now despite having only 3 working with one Clanking when I crank it up!
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post #196 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

I find that my system is the complete opposite. I have to have sub trim at a positive or the bass will not get loud until reference which is calibrated to 10 hot in any situation that I calibrate it. But, it may be my AVR is different with the output, who knows. Its a Denon 4311. I just find the bass really is lacking unless the amps along with the sub trim are both turned up.

Ive found this as well with the denon. right now however it seems like it has relieved itself as I have AVR's trim at -2.5, no boost in the DCX and fp14k's trims at 12:00. I still feel like I need more voltage from the avr to really get things rocking from the start of the chain.

BASSTHATHZ: I can stand directly outside of my bunker running 120db 20hz sines and not hear a thing. further up you get I get a SMALL amount of spill but that is completely gone by the time I get more than 5 feet from the door. Thank God for concrete and brick basement walls smile.gif

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post #197 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

I find that my system is the complete opposite. I have to have sub trim at a positive or the bass will not get loud until reference which is calibrated to 10 hot in any situation that I calibrate it. But, it may be my AVR is different with the output, who knows. Its a Denon 4311. I just find the bass really is lacking unless the amps along with the sub trim are both turned up.

i did run a 4311 for a while, it's currently in my living room. I'm currently running an integra 80.3. I don't remember the Denon lacking bass but then again, I've been so happy with my 80.3, I just don't really remember lol On the 80.3 at least, it doesn't make any difference where the trim is set, when it's all calibrated, it's all the same. Doesn't really matter is it's positive or negative on the trim, it "should" sound the same as long as it's all equal.

Have you ever tried to see if your getting any cancellation? Run 1 sub, then 2 etc and take measurements at each one and compare?

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #198 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Ive found this as well with the denon. right now however it seems like it has relieved itself as I have AVR's trim at -2.5, no boost in the DCX and fp14k's trims at 12:00. I still feel like I need more voltage from the avr to really get things rocking from the start of the chain.
BASSTHATHZ: I can stand directly outside of my bunker running 120db 20hz sines and not hear a thing. further up you get I get a SMALL amount of spill but that is completely gone by the time I get more than 5 feet from the door. Thank God for concrete and brick basement walls smile.gif

Thats impressive on how well the LFs stay inside your room. I can hear my room from atleast a 1/2 mile down the road. Thats what happens when you dont care about a leaky room lol.

And N8, no none are cancelling each other. Its just something I've noticed since have started using pro amps really. No idea if its related to the amp though as I only had manufactured subs in the theater before buying pro amps. It was like that with my higher end yamaha too.
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post #199 of 356 Old 09-30-2012, 11:01 PM
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^^^ AHV it could simply be that your AVR does not give sufficient signal level to drive the pro amps which typically work at higher levels for max output.
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post #200 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 07:44 AM
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^^^ AHV it could simply be that your AVR does not give sufficient signal level to drive the pro amps which typically work at higher levels for max output.

Agreed. There is so much speculation here, and it boggles me to no end as you ask 50 different people, you get 50 different answers really. Ive never felt any of my Denon's output enough voltage to drive the pro amps sufficiently, even though person after person says it is fine. People suggested popping in a signal booster, so bought all of them. Somehow the cleanboxes have disappeared but I still have an ATI mm100, samson s-convert, and henry matchbox HD. At the moment I do not have any of them in the chain as I have the DCX to line boost, and my levels are all good, but alas, I still sometimes that everything still isn't "quite" right. More on this later if you are interested...

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post #201 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 11:15 AM
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Beast, the best way for me to describe it is that once I put pro amps in the chain (first was with 2 mal 21s and QSC 2450) the bass did not encrease with the music in a linear rate even after turning up the AVR, amp, and volume. Its much better after messing with it time after time but still seems a little off is the best way I can describe it. ITs like at a certian volume level the amp starts working better or something. That was with a yamaha high end AVR, the Denon seems to act similar.
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post #202 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Agreed. There is so much speculation here, and it boggles me to no end as you ask 50 different people, you get 50 different answers really. Ive never felt any of my Denon's output enough voltage to drive the pro amps sufficiently, even though person after person says it is fine. People suggested popping in a signal booster, so bought all of them.
I'd simply measure it and make my determination that way. What anyone else hypothesises is irrelevant.
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post #203 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Beast, the best way for me to describe it is that once I put pro amps in the chain (first was with 2 mal 21s and QSC 2450) the bass did not encrease with the music in a linear rate even after turning up the AVR, amp, and volume. Its much better after messing with it time after time but still seems a little off is the best way I can describe it. ITs like at a certian volume level the amp starts working better or something. That was with a yamaha high end AVR, the Denon seems to act similar.

I have to pretty much agree with you on your observation, but have never really been able to pinpoint in as exact terms as you just did. My only thoughts are if you are feeding the standard consumer signal, the amplification of the signal will be exponential as you move along. quite strange really but as an amp works, it basically is multiplying the given voltage a certain amount of times up to it capability. if it only gets half to begin with, it certainly wont be linear as you put it.

Quote:
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I'd simply measure it and make my determination that way. What anyone else hypothesises is irrelevant.

yes yes, voltmeter check, just got my audio test dvd not too long ago, just need to test my AVR's voltage output. I assume a 60hz sine at perhaps -10db on the avr and sub trim flat should show what I want on the preout?

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post #204 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Need help with connections of my subs.

When all my subs are connected - to - and + to +, I get an incredible amount of mid bass output but the low end is lacking.

when I reverse the connections to my rear subs I get less mid bass output but WAY MORE low end. Everything vibrates like crazy.

I do not know how it should be connected confused.gif

I want the low end rumble and the only way is to reverse the connections of my subs in the back.
Does this make any sense?

Would a MiniDSP fix this problem?

thanks
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post #205 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Need help with connections of my subs.
When all my subs are connected - to - and + to +, I get an incredible amount of mid bass output but the low end is lacking.
when I reverse the connections to my rear subs I get less mid bass output but WAY MORE low end. Everything vibrates like crazy.
I do not know how it should be connected confused.gif
I want the low end rumble and the only way is to reverse the connections of my subs in the back.
Does this make any sense?
Would a MiniDSP fix this problem?
thanks

Yes. You need some form of control which includes delay and EQ. A MiniDSP would be a good choice.

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post #206 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes. You need some form of control which includes delay and EQ. A MiniDSP would be a good choice.

Scott,
I looked at the MiniDSP site and am a bit lost...not sure what I should get.
What should I be looking for?

I have 2 separated sub outputs
I control the fronts with the .1 output and control the rears with the .2 sub output.
Would a 2x4 dsp work well in my case?

Does this make sense?

thanks
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post #207 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 03:08 PM
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The main one that everyone is using around here is the MiniDSP In-A-Box 2x4. It has two inputs and four outputs. Perfect for your situation. There is an unbalanced version (RCA) with two voltages and I forgot which one was which. Then there is a balanced version that uses Phoenix connectors which I think is the new preferred one to use. I'm not sure as I just back into liking the MiniDSP system when I discovered their 4x10hd and 10x10hd. Those are more expensive but come in a more consumer electronics size (rack mountable), have a preset knob and have even more in's and out's then the standard MiniDSP. However, you don't need to get the high end one of you don't want but it wouldn't hurt.

The lowest priced 2x4 is all you really need and it sounds like a lot of AVS DIY users own them now.

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post #208 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 04:44 PM
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Yes. You need some form of control which includes delay and EQ. A MiniDSP would be a good choice.

MiniDSP or Behringer DCX2496.

And why?

Go...

 

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post #209 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 04:45 PM
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Because. smile.gif

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #210 of 356 Old 10-01-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

MiniDSP or Behringer DCX2496.
And why?
Go...

Both will get you from A to B, just in different ways. Bottom line the DCX doesnt require use of a laptop to make the changes (which is what ultimately decided it for me) and you can adjust on the fly right from the front panel, however you CAN use a PC to adjust as well with a rs232 plugin. The MiniDSP has a little more adjust-ability and also can be used to make changes below 20hz which the DCX cant.

what else? eh, DCX is 3 in, 6 out and the Mini has 2x4 2x8 4x10 10x10 in price increments to reflect the amounts...

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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