DIY Thx ultra 2 subwoofer - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:31 PM
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Oops double post. Shout out for the Oregon ducks tonight!

Dan
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post #62 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Whats possible with this driver?
http://tcsounds.com/product/drivers/lms-ultra-5400/
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post #63 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodFX View Post

Where can i view that flat pack or buy it?

You can't buy that flat pack.... that was a picture from the Hope Arkansas plant.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #64 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:37 PM
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"The greater sd and Xmax of the SVS will surely make it louder at the higher frequencies."

sd and xmax combine to create swept volume. that is what limits low frequencies. the high frequencies are limited by sensitivity and power.

"So if the driver has more sd and more Xmax that can't be good, there's going to be port compression."

that would be true if the ports were too small, but the ports on the svs are just fine.

"It is well documented that if even one port is plugged that the port chuffing is quite audible."

i'm not sure what your point is. if you have less port area, the air velocity increases. once you go past a certain point, you get chuffing. the reason the subwoofer has three ports is that at full volume, three ports are needed to keep air velocity below the point of chuffing.

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post #65 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

You can't buy that flat pack.... that was a picture from the Hope Arkansas plant.

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post #66 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 06:40 PM
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ricci and ilkka have tested it in a number of cabinets. it is one of the best. looks like ricci needs to re-test, but ilkka's data is available.

summary report:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/6656-subwoofer-tests-fall-2007-a.html

index of subs:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/6015-index-subwoofer-tests-manufacturer-model.html

it is equivalent to between 3 and 4 epic12 subs if that helps.

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post #67 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The greater sd and Xmax of the SVS will surely make it louder at the higher frequencies."
sd and xmax combine to create swept volume. that is what limits low frequencies. the high frequencies are limited by sensitivity and power.
"So if the driver has more sd and more Xmax that can't be good, there's going to be port compression."
that would be true if the ports were too small, but the ports on the svs are just fine.
"It is well documented that if even one port is plugged that the port chuffing is quite audible."
i'm not sure what your point is. if you have less port area, the air velocity increases. once you go past a certain point, you get chuffing. the reason the subwoofer has three ports is that at full volume, three ports are needed to keep air velocity below the point of chuffing.

What I'm saying is the driver in the SVS is limited in its cabinet. The ports are not fine. When you get chuffing, you get compression, you limit low end capabilities. Just like with the klipsch, it could do better in a better box. So do you disagree with the comment made about the infinity 120.9w possibly besting the SVS? I can get you a link to the build if you wish.

As LTD02 said, the LMS ultra is one of if not the best driver out there, but at a cost. I'd rather get 4 tc epics, have more output and place them around the room to smooth out your response.

Dan
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post #68 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 07:21 PM
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"So do you disagree with the comment made about the infinity 120.9w possibly besting the SVS?"

yeah, i kind of do. the infinity 120.9w has 17.50 mm xmax and less sd than the driver in the pb13u. in 20hz tuning mode, the svs will have about 4db more excursion limited spl than the infinity. that is a pretty big beat. doubling drivers gives an additional 3db, so *two* 120.9w's might give *one* svs sub a run...

120.9w specs:
http://eu.infinitysystems.com/tl_files/catalog//Infinity/Infinity-Car/Specsheets/Kappa/Kappa/9-Series/120.9w/KAPPA120-9w_PI_EN.pdf

i'm not taking anything away from the infinity driver and the epic is in between the two.

"I'd rather get 4 tc epics, have more output and place them around the room to smooth out your response."

+1

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post #69 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by saabracer23 View Post

The one problem with the klipsch subs is volume. Their somewhat tiny. Klipsch isn't going to be able to convince as many people to purchase 6 cubic foot ported subs, that's why is should be fairly easy to best them with quality drivers.
Dan

The only Problem with the KLipsch THX subs were price! The duals bested my SVS PB12/plus/2. Both ported, both dual 12's, almost the same power. The Klipsch had better extension and spl when the SVS was in 16hz mode which the Klipsch could go down to pretty good. The klipsch were better, however, the SVS was $1200 and the Klipsch were $3600 retail. I got the klipsch for $1500 and for that price better than the SVS, not worth it retail.
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post #70 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 08:42 PM
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looks like that infinity is only $136 with free shipping from newegg right now, which is a pretty good deal.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1270921664&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

four of those would be $560 in drivers and they only need a 2000 watt amp to push the driver to its limit in a 5-6 cubic footer tuned to 16-20hz, which you can pick up for $400 in an inuke nu3000dsp. so, a little over full reference in a largish room with integrated equalization and four sources for under $1k plus wood? that is a tremendous bang for the buck.

a more expensive option would be something like this:
http://www.istonline.ca/mach5_uxl_18.html

step up to a more expensive amp, inuke nu6000dsp and put one driver on each channel. that would be another win. ten cubic footers each tuned to around 16hz will give you 124db or so in 2pi space down to 15hz and you won't be approaching the drivers' limits.

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post #71 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 09:09 PM
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You could also get 8 infinity 1262w for $60 each shipped. They have 13mm Xmax each. 8 would put you at $480 for drivers, nice amp and materials should be under $1000. Only problem is placing 8 subs! I'm limited to having two :-( so I went with better quality drivers to get the most I could. Plus I have to have smaller cabinets, gotta please the wife.

Dan
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post #72 of 87 Old 09-01-2012, 09:47 PM
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i like that idea, but now you are pushing 40 cubic feet of subs. :-)

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post #73 of 87 Old 09-02-2012, 08:19 AM
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How would an Infinity Kappa Perfect 12 perform in a 300L sonotube compared to a TC Sounds Epic 12 in a 200L sonotube, both powered with a 600watt amp?
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post #74 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Are there any tutorials i can look at for designing speakers, subs and enclosures, also software to design them?
I just feel i want to educate myself some more as i feel out of my league at the moment ><.
Also what equipment do i need for testing speakers frequency's etc?
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post #75 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodFX View Post

Are there any tutorials i can look at for designing speakers, subs and enclosures, also software to design them?
I just feel i want to educate myself some more as i feel out of my league at the moment ><.
Also what equipment do i need for testing speakers frequency's etc?

Man, I've been lurking on this forum for years, and I still feel out of my league biggrin.gif
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post #76 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Man, I've been lurking on this forum for years, and I still feel out of my league biggrin.gif

I have to start somewhere and i,m willing to learn. smile.gif
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post #77 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 09:50 AM
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Pick an area first.

Sealed subs
Ported subs
TL
EQ
Drivers
Active cross overs
Passive cross overs
Horns
etc.

What do you want to know about. It's going to be a little over whelming. I'd start by learning what you want to build. Like a subwoofer that meets Ultra 2 specs wink.gif
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post #78 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Pick an area first.
Sealed subs
Ported subs
TL
EQ
Drivers
Active cross overs
Passive cross overs
Horns
etc.
What do you want to know about. It's going to be a little over whelming. I'd start by learning what you want to build. Like a subwoofer that meets Ultra 2 specs wink.gif

Ported subs how do you work out the size, the size of the port, tuning and what driver to put inside it?
Also whats the difference between ported and sealed?
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post #79 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodFX View Post

Ported subs how do you work out the size, the size of the port, tuning and what driver to put inside it?
Also whats the difference between ported and sealed?

I am new to all of this "building your own speakers" stuff too. I am planning on going with a sealed sub because from what I am told they are a bit easier to do as a beginner and they take up less space. I have no idea how to come up with the design, but someone from here was nice enough to plug some info. into winISD (or whatever the program is called) and let me know how big my enclosure needed to be and how much power I would need. My plan it to make a couple dual opposed 15" sealed enclosures and to power them with a iNuke6000.

I could be wrong here and if so I am sure I will be corrected, but from the info I found and what I was told the difference between a sealed sub and ported sub is basically the sound you get and how loud or how low they will go. From what I gather a sealed sub in the right enclosure and right amount of power will give you good FR down into the low teens. A ported sub will most likely have more output above it tuning frequency but if it is tuned for say 16 Hz it will drop off steeply at that 16Hz frequency. So it all really depends on what you want. To me it seems if you want really loud reference bass you will go with ported but if you want that subsonic bass that you feel as opposed to hear and don't need massive output go with sealed.

Like I said though I am new to all of this too, so take what I say with a grain of salt until someone else chimes in.
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post #80 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodFX View Post

Ported subs how do you work out the size, the size of the port, tuning and what driver to put inside it?
Also whats the difference between ported and sealed?

For the basics like that, google works well. You're also on the right forum. Start a thread, ask questions. Good luck.
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post #81 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

I am new to all of this "building your own speakers" stuff too. I am planning on going with a sealed sub because from what I am told they are a bit easier to do as a beginner and they take up less space. I have no idea how to come up with the design, but someone from here was nice enough to plug some info. into winISD (or whatever the program is called) and let me know how big my enclosure needed to be and how much power I would need. My plan it to make a couple dual opposed 15" sealed enclosures and to power them with a iNuke6000.
I could be wrong here and if so I am sure I will be corrected, but from the info I found and what I was told the difference between a sealed sub and ported sub is basically the sound you get and how loud or how low they will go. From what I gather a sealed sub in the right enclosure and right amount of power will give you good FR down into the low teens. A ported sub will most likely have more output above it tuning frequency but if it is tuned for say 16 Hz it will drop off steeply at that 16Hz frequency. So it all really depends on what you want. To me it seems if you want really loud reference bass you will go with ported but if you want that subsonic bass that you feel as opposed to hear and don't need massive output go with sealed.
Like I said though I am new to all of this too, so take what I say with a grain of salt until someone else chimes in.
My local cinema has massive ported subs with thx ultra 2 certification so does that mean they are tuned for 20hz @ -6db?
Also if they are can i get the same with a sealed sub?
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post #82 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BloodFX View Post

My local cinema has massive ported subs with thx ultra 2 certification so does that mean they are tuned for 20hz @ -6db?
Also if they are can i get the same with a sealed sub?

This I would not know, but I guess you could assume. But you do know what they say about people that assume things. biggrin.gif

You could probably do better with a sealed sub...if you have enough power going to the driver. From what I have learned if done right you can get a sealed sub down into the low teens even single digits with the right components.
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post #83 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Yea i had a brief look at that WinISD Smigro and i have to say i don't have a clue how to use it lol.
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post #84 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 01:02 PM
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Yea i had a brief look at that WinISD Smigro and i have to say i don't have a clue how to use it lol.

At least you could look at it. I am in the market for a new computer so I could not even look at it and my work computer needs admin approval before DL'ing any programs.
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post #85 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 02:18 PM
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My local cinema has massive ported subs with thx ultra 2 certification so does that mean they are tuned for 20hz @ -6db?
Also if they are can i get the same with a sealed sub?

Most definitely. But most would say that you want to AT LEAST be -0 at 20hz. With two sealed 18's I am able to get a flat reference response to below 10hz. Now that is the ultimate. THX standard simply states a requirement for mixers to adhere to, but many in this area of AVS go way above and beyond that since we can.

Sealed is going to be a little easier to design and build, will be smaller, but will require more power, and probably multiple speakers to get enough output to make you happy. Ported will be a little more difficult to build but not much, the box will be bigger, but there will be more output down to its tuning frequency at which point it becomes useless. to put it one way, my 18's that I have sealed are in 22x22x30 boxes which is pretty big for sealed, but my ported 15's are in boxes made from round tubes that are 24 inch diameter and 6 feet tall!! I jhad to go this big to get the box to play as low as possible, but that is still only down to 12hz. Bottom line is start a thread, state your budget, your main goal, room size and what else you have to work with and plenty of folks will chime in to help you get a good design going.

Also, just play around with WinISD for a bit, youll figure it out smile.gif

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post #86 of 87 Old 09-05-2012, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Most definitely. But most would say that you want to AT LEAST be -0 at 20hz. With two sealed 18's I am able to get a flat reference response to below 10hz. Now that is the ultimate. THX standard simply states a requirement for mixers to adhere to, but many in this area of AVS go way above and beyond that since we can.
Sealed is going to be a little easier to design and build, will be smaller, but will require more power, and probably multiple speakers to get enough output to make you happy. Ported will be a little more difficult to build but not much, the box will be bigger, but there will be more output down to its tuning frequency at which point it becomes useless. to put it one way, my 18's that I have sealed are in 22x22x30 boxes which is pretty big for sealed, but my ported 15's are in boxes made from round tubes that are 24 inch diameter and 6 feet tall!! I jhad to go this big to get the box to play as low as possible, but that is still only down to 12hz. Bottom line is start a thread, state your budget, your main goal, room size and what else you have to work with and plenty of folks will chime in to help you get a good design going.
Also, just play around with WinISD for a bit, youll figure it out smile.gif

Nice to know that most of what I said was correct. At least that gives me the feeling that I am learning something from you guys. biggrin.gif
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post #87 of 87 Old 09-06-2012, 06:37 AM
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Nice to know that most of what I said was correct. At least that gives me the feeling that I am learning something from you guys. biggrin.gif

Absolutely, you're getting it alright!! I feel I should put a caveat in there from my previous post. I am heavily biased towards sealed designs. Ive just tried everything else and with the exception of possibly ported mains, everything else is just easier and better sealed in the bass category. Yes it does cost more and takes more to outgun a ported system, but once you have that, you will never turn back. Ive tried tapped horns, heard front loaded horns, standard ported, LLT (Large Low Tuned), etc. The only one I have yet to cross off my list is an IB (infinite baffle) setup, and I guess a rotary sub, but both of those are out of the question for me so Im not in too big of a hurry...

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