My New Folded Horn Design!!! - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 33 Old 09-02-2012, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is my new folded horn design. I needed feed back to see if I need to change anything. I am about half way on 2 of the cabinets. I got two eminence 18's on the way now. to put in them. each one will stand about 4 feet high. I got the dimensions out in the shop. I can get them to someone if they need them. Right now I have 2 Peavey black widows in single peavey cabinets and I am looking for more bass. the two fifthteen do ok on kick drum and mids but just enough for tonal bass. hopefully this works great. I had priced some new cabinets but they just cost to much compared to what it would cost to build them for. I can build and load 3 of these with 18's for the price of one of those cerwin vegas. So do you all think it is a good design? I used google sketchup to make the blue print designs the best I could. At the top where the access panel for the woofer it will be double ply of 3/4" MDF. Every thing glued and screwed and I'll coat the whole cabinet with armor plate.




mtyler7807 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 01:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Brad Horstkotte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 5,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Did you use hornresp or similar to model the horn?
Brad Horstkotte is online now  
post #3 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 05:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Did you use hornresp or similar to model the horn?
+1. The horn path length appears far too short to work well as a subwoofer, maybe half what it should be. Where folded horns are concerned the best results come from using as small a driver as has sufficient Vd for the application in as large a horn as packspace will allow, not as large a driver as will fit into as small a cabinet as possible. The Cerwin Vega folded horns are fine examples of how a folded horn sub should not be built. And assuming that these are intended for portable pro-sound use you do not want to build them from MDF; well braced 1/2" BB plywood is far stronger but much lighter.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #4 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I figured i may have something wrong. thanks for the quick response. I still have time to add to the height and depth of the cabinet. i have made a really rough chaange diagram. it will be taller on the top. i added a longer port inside.
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #5 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
similar to model the horn
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #6 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:15 AM
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,499
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 962 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
If you shrink the driver, the horn effectively becomes larger. When you re-design, consider that fact and that a quality 12" is a better driver size for something like this. At 12" you will get more performance for your money, a good 18" costs much more. I hate to say it but the Eminence 18's are going to sound muddy in your application. I owned one of these: B-52 LX1818 which use Eminence 18's. It never lived up to it's specs, for the exact same reason your design is likely to be compromised. Shrink the driver, or be prepared to build a horn that takes up half a room.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
imagic is online now  
post #7 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Bley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: IL. USA
Posts: 2,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
On Bills THT builds I could clearly see and follow the horn path and see it getting larger toward the mouth of the horn but, I can't tell hide nor hair from your sketch or model of what's going on, sorry. I guess I have the same question as Brad. Maybe I should go grab another cup of coffee. smile.gif I'm just here to observe & learn. smile.gif
Tom Bley is offline  
post #8 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I thought for sure those b-52's would sound good. they have a really high price tag. Too high for some wood. I was using 18's to use only two and two peavey 15 cabinets for parties. Do you think the 12's would do the same using two cabinets. or do you want me to put two drivers in each horn cabinet?
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #9 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

On Bills THT builds I could clearly see and follow the horn path and see it getting larger toward the mouth of the horn but, I can't tell hide nor hair from your sketch or model of what's going on, sorry. I guess I have the same question as Brad. Maybe I should go grab another cup of coffee. smile.gif I'm just here to observe & learn. smile.gif
do you have a link for bills design. I'm new here. I have bulit alot of subwoofer cabinets for cars, but loud speaker design is a art. I would love to build a awesome cabinet, I could make some money where stay dealing with loud speakers. Everyone down here wants folded horns.
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #10 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If you go to Guitar Center you can see the so-called folded horns that serve as inspiration. They are not good designs, to say the least - http://www.guitarcenter.com/Cerwin-Vega-EL-36C-18--Folded-Horn-Subwoofer-105125371-i1432728.gc
Not so much a horn as a cheap hybrid of T-line, bandpass and pseudo-waveguide. The real goal is to create as loud a mid-bass boom as possible for the least $$$. The confusion comes from the fact that they are marketed as folded horns. T
That is the horn that my friend has that made me want one. He has a QSC 2450 pushing bought of them. His love gogo music for parties and it does the kick drum from the music great from two of them.
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #11 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

On Bills THT builds I could clearly see and follow the horn path and see it getting larger toward the mouth of the horn but, I can't tell hide nor hair from your sketch or model of what's going on, sorry. I guess I have the same question as Brad. Maybe I should go grab another cup of coffee. smile.gif I'm just here to observe & learn. smile.gif
Do you have the link for that build. I am new here.
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #12 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 07:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Instead of wanting what your friend has, go to a music store and audition some subwoofers,
One will not find high quality folded horn subs in music stores. They exist in high end PA cabs from many manufacturers, but they aren't found in G-C and the like.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #13 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This will be mostly for smooth jazz, new rap(which has the bass drop), gogo like chuck brown , pure pleasure, new diemsions,etc ( alot of kick drum). I have heard the EV folded horns and the older carvin ones before they came out with the dual 18 T cabinets. With the genre of music I listen two the cerwin vegas did the best over all, for the size of the cabinet. Right now I am using some black widow 15's but they just don't do it anymore. When I stepped up from my Nikko 130 amp(real good amp for being older) to the two crown powerbase 2's.
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #14 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thats why I am here. The ones that I have heard are the ones some of friends have. We have one store call winter sound that has a lot of this but you can't listen to them until after you buy them.mad.gif
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #15 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 08:12 AM
Senior Writer @ AVS
 
imagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,499
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 962 Post(s)
Liked: 2072
Have you checked this out? http://www.guitarcenter.com/EAW-LA400-Bent-Bass-Horn-Subwoofer-100485005-i1171677.gc

edit - from the description: The LA400 defies conventional wisdom, which states that an 18" woofer is required to drive a bass horn. 18" woofers simply do not have the rigidity required to drive the high acoustic impedance present in a horn throat. As a result, traditional 18" bass bins get loud, but only produce one note very well. The LA400 in contrast uses a proprietary heavy duty 12" woofer. The woofer has the motor structure of a traditional 18" device, and its cone is reinforced to be a better engine for compact horn-loading. This woofer is then loaded onto a properly designed bass horn which matches path length to cone area and maximizes driver efficiency. The result is tight, punchy sub bass response that not only will shake your foundation, but is articulate and musical as well.

That's what we're talking about here, they are actually selling it. Copy that design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyler7807 View Post

This will be mostly for smooth jazz, new rap(which has the bass drop), gogo like chuck brown , pure pleasure, new diemsions,etc ( alot of kick drum). I have heard the EV folded horns and the older carvin ones before they came out with the dual 18 T cabinets. With the genre of music I listen two the cerwin vegas did the best over all, for the size of the cabinet. Right now I am using some black widow 15's but they just don't do it anymore. When I stepped up from my Nikko 130 amp(real good amp for being older) to the two crown powerbase 2's.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
imagic is online now  
post #16 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 08:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyler7807 View Post

Thats why I am here. The ones that I have heard are the ones some of friends have. We have one store call winter sound that has a lot of this but you can't listen to them until after you buy them.mad.gif

Why not build an F20? It's a great design that gets really loud all the way down to 20 Hz. Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329971/lilmikes-cinema-f-20

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is online now  
post #17 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Why not build an F20? It's a great design that gets really loud all the way down to 20 Hz. Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have to?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329971/lilmikes-cinema-f-20
hahaha , good one!!!smile.gif
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #18 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 08:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Why is that so funny?

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is online now  
post #19 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 09:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dbldare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Broomfield, CO USA
Posts: 2,518
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyler7807 View Post

hahaha , good one!!!smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Why is that so funny?


+1


I think the OP's 'tag line' under his screen name needs to be edited to -- "Bass >40Hz is the answer to everything". Or simply just change it to "Mid-Bass" is the answer to everything....


dbl

Let's all go to the lobby
....Let's all go to the lobby
........Let's all go to the lobby
............To get ourselves a treat!
dbldare is offline  
post #20 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,144
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 617
I would second the f-20. For outdoor parties it would kill. especially for that "bass drop" you are looking for. just for music, you dont need to get much lower and the output is rediculous with a very modest pricetag.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is online now  
post #21 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 01:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Why not build an F20?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329971/lilmikes-cinema-f-20
It's not suited for pro-sound use, which has little to no needs below 35Hz, and sensitivity is all important.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #22 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 02:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's not suited for pro-sound use, which has little to no needs below 35Hz, and sensitivity is all important.
The build lists the sensitivity between 92-94. That looks pretty good to me. Plus you're biased! You just want him to build one of your Tubas! But you're right. The sensitivity of your models are well above the F-20.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is online now  
post #23 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,144
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 617
Not to mention the OP wants some of the lower than 35hz stuff you get with some of the new rap tracks. Not to say that a good high(er) efficiency pro cab wouldnt do the trick, cuz it would as well. Just thinking of good horn designs with good bottom end down to 20hz..

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is online now  
post #24 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 02:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Tom Bley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: IL. USA
Posts: 2,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyler7807 View Post

Do you have the link for that build. I am new here.

Sure do, he posts here quite a bit wink.gif

http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/THT.html
mtyler7807 likes this.
Tom Bley is offline  
post #25 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 04:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 9,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1284
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

The build lists the sensitivity between 92-94. That looks pretty good to me. Plus you're biased! You just want him to build one of your Tubas! But you're right. The sensitivity of your models are well above the F-20.
I don't care what he builds, but if it was a Tuba the last one I'd recommend would be a THT, for the same reason: wrong tool for the job.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #26 of 33 Old 09-03-2012, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
flyng_fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Frisco, TX
Posts: 3,424
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 71
I should have been more specific. I meant to say one of your Tuba Pro designs. They are very impressive.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
flyng_fool is online now  
post #27 of 33 Old 09-06-2012, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry about the slack off, been stuck at work for a couple of days. Going threw post now to get the right idea of what to do. Good site so far.
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #28 of 33 Old 09-06-2012, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
mtyler7807's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Richmond VA
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtyler7807

Do you have the link for that build. I am new here.

Sure do, he posts here quite a bit

http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/THT.html

Thanks
mtyler7807 is offline  
post #29 of 33 Old 12-22-2012, 05:27 AM
Newbie
 
okopti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi I really like you design and would like to have them. If you should have one for MID HIGH I would love them
Okpoti
okopti is offline  
post #30 of 33 Old 12-22-2012, 06:30 AM
Senior Member
 
Gaugster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I struggled like many to balance driver size and cabinet size. After reading as much as I could find, one of the main parameters is to match the woofer to the enclosure.
That said, the recommendation to downsize to a smaller diameter woofer sounds like very good advice. The goal being to match the self resonance of the speaker too the path length of your box.
This is the last thing you want to compromise.

Gaugster
Gaugster is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off