Titanic MK III 15's making europower clip at 4000watts? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I will try to make this short and sweet. I custom built 2 identical 5.5 cu/ft boxes braced VERY heavily and sealed inside with basically liquid rubber. Glued AND screwed all joints, sealed tight is an understatement, no air gets out or in. Installed a Titanic MK III 15" in each one. I have 2 euro power 4000 bridged to each basically 4000watts into 4 ohms. I have a VERY large rectangular room 25 wide by 45 long. System is facing down long side. I have had both amps driven to clipping 4000watts?, but the thing that has me scratching my head is subs have xmax of 20mm, they MIGHT be moving 8-10 driven at full, and to make matters worse my bass is horrible! I have all pro xlr connections, subs low filter set to 50 hz (but I have tried 30), high cut off Behringer eq is set to 100, but I have had it up to max which is 130. What am I doing wrong? Is my room just too big? Its the main reason I went with 2 big 15"s and gobs of power.
Are the Europower amps junk? An "expert" told me they are basically QSC''s. I just cannot figure it out.

1) Where's the bass?
2) Why/how so much power? I see people running these with 500 watts, I know max says 1100watts, but believe me I have driven them WAY past 1100.
3) Can't come close to xmax, I run out of power, 4000watts? Dustcaps get warm, I don't drive them long after this.

Are my boxes to big? All equations I did said they belong in a 5.5 sealed box, which they are. 3/4 mdf 1x1 bracing on EACH joint, plus a + made with a 2x4 inside each box. Box is really 5.9, but I took into account bracing and woofer volume to get as close to 5.5 as I could.

I am really confused, I cannot tell you how much effort, time. and money I have put into these 2 subs, and to be so disappointed. Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.


Ken
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post #2 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:45 PM
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Okay, first.... an ep4000 puts out at max 1,600w @ 4ohm bridged full range. Not 4,000w and you're certainly not driving them "way past 1,100w". Sorry.

Second, are you using the 30/50 bass cut on the back of the ep4000 amp itself? Turn that off! It's a high pass filter and is throwing away all the bass below what you have now 50hz. LOL! That's a ton of bass. No wonder it doesn't sound any good. One of the dip switches will completely disable that part. Don't use it for subwoofers.

Your boxes are fine, it sounds like you have your amplifier and/or other signal modifications out of whack. Other things can make the amplifer show clip. You might be sending the amp an overly hot signal which can happen but it's usually the other way around.... but that can cause a clip too oddly enough.

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post #3 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:50 PM
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First off why do you have your amps set to roll off the bass at 50hz? Go ahead and turn the low cut filters off so you can actually hear some bass. Before you do that though go ahead and only use 1 EP4000 and run it in stereo, you are running too much power with a bridged EP4000 into a 5.5cuft enclosure with a single Titanic 15".

I don't have WinISD capabilities on this computer but 5.5cuft is on the large side if I remember correctly, the Parts Express kit is only 3cuft with a 1000 watt amp. Hopefully someone else can come on here and check the size, it will work so you don't have to make new cabinets but you have to limit the power to avoid over excursion of the drivers.

Another thing you should know is the EP4000 does not put out 4000 watts in bridged mono into 4ohms, more like 2000 watts. It is basically the same amp as the one that preceded it, the EP2500 which was tested to put out close to 2000 watts: http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/60#post_10755565

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post #4 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:51 PM
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Scott beat me to it by a mere 4 minutes, They don't call him quick draw for nuttin tongue.gif

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post #5 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:54 PM
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Yeah. Turn that filter off! It should be dip switch 3, iirc. Set it to off.

I made a simulation of what 1,600w would do to the excursion in your enclosure. You could easily power TWO Titanic Mk3's with a single ep4000.

Dayton%20Titanic%2015mk35cuft1600wXmax_zps5c5cf3c2.gif

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Scott beat me to it by a mere 4 minutes, They don't call him quick draw for nuttin tongue.gif

Someone calls me a 'Quick Draw'? Really? I thought I was called 'Sub-bass simulation McGuillicutty'. *laughs* jk tongue.gif

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post #6 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the spec right off Parts express website.

Specifications: • Output power (20 Hz-20 kHz @ 0.1% THD, both channels driven) per channel stereo mode: 550 watts RMS @ 8Ω, 950 watts RMS @ 4Ω, 1,250 watts @ 2Ω • Output power (1% THD, sine wave) bridged mono mode: 1,750 watts RMS @ 8Ω, 2,400 watts RMS @ 4Ω • Output power (peak power) bridged mode: 2,800 watts @ 8Ω, 4,000 watts @ 4Ω • Weight: 36.6 lbs. • Mains voltage/Breaker: 100~120V, 50/60 Hz, 15A • Dimensions: 3.5" H x 19" W x 15.8" D.

So yes they do 4000watts bridged at 4 ohms.

OK I will take a look at my dip switches again....I will also check input signal, maybe is it a little high. pretty sure subs are getting 50hz to 120hz only. When I put my ear to them all I here is lows.....

But Thank you very much for replying so quickly, I do appreciate it.
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post #7 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 04:58 PM
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There are 2 dip switches, 1 for each channel that need to be set to off on the EP4000. They are dip switch 3 and 8, both of those should be turned to off.

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post #8 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvark1355 View Post

Here is the spec right off Parts express website.
Specifications: • Output power (20 Hz-20 kHz @ 0.1% THD, both channels driven) per channel stereo mode: 550 watts RMS @ 8Ω, 950 watts RMS @ 4Ω, 1,250 watts @ 2Ω • Output power (1% THD, sine wave) bridged mono mode: 1,750 watts RMS @ 8Ω, 2,400 watts RMS @ 4Ω • Output power (peak power) bridged mode: 2,800 watts @ 8Ω, 4,000 watts @ 4Ω • Weight: 36.6 lbs. • Mains voltage/Breaker: 100~120V, 50/60 Hz, 15A • Dimensions: 3.5" H x 19" W x 15.8" D.
So yes they do 4000watts bridged at 4 ohms.
OK I will take a look at my dip switches again....I will also check input signal, maybe is it a little high. pretty sure subs are getting 50hz to 120hz only. When I put my ear to them all I here is lows.....
But Thank you very much for replying so quickly, I do appreciate it.

Did you check the link I posted regarding the actual testing of the amp? They might put out 4000 watts for a nano second before they catch on fire but realistic watts are only about 2000 which is still a TON for Titanic 15" subs.

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post #9 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvark1355 View Post

So yes they do 4000watts bridged at 4 ohms.

Ugh. Says the new guy with 2 posts. FFS..... rolleyes.gif

No, it doesn't.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/855865/measuring-amplifiers/60#post_10755537

Add the 2ohm ratings together per channel. 800x2=1,600w. It's 1,600w FULL RANGE, meaning, the part with bass in it.

Why are you only feeding them 50-120hz? These are supposed to be 'subwoofers' aren't they? You picked the wrong driver for the job, imo if you only wanted 50-120hz.

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post #10 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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OK come on folks, I came here for help, please refrain from the off comments. I really do appreciate the input from everyone. I did turn those dip switches to the off position, so low cut is off completely, I also turned the low cut to 0 on the front of the Behringer EQ. I do have more excursion now than before, but no where near the max, but I still think I am running out of power, and I do not have any improvement in the 30-120.....not much below 50 is there? I listen to mostly jazz.

And ok I see it does say peak power 4000 watts for that amp. My apologies.

I do have a very large room.....do I simply need more subs. It is a 25 x 45 room with 15 foot high vaulted ceilings. Is it just too much air to push? My mains are an older pair of Mirage M3's. I know they are old in the tooth but I love them
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post #11 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 05:44 PM
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That is a huge room for 2 little 15" subs. You need more subs. Also 1 bridged ep per Titanic 15 = complete destruction of that 15, especially in a 5.5 CF box, as Scott already pointed out.
I have a room ca little over half that size and have 4 x 21's and 6 x 18's in it lol.
As far as amps go, don't read to much into "rated output" It generally doesn't mean much. the ep4000 is an amazing amp for the money but running your subs bridged, your just asking for a VC meltdown I'm afraid.

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post #12 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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OK ty very much. Guess ill start saving for 2 more!
Thanx guys for your input, I came here because your the pros and have seen most of these scenerios before.
I will limp along for now.....should I go for 2 -18's for my next pair? Would give me more low end correct? Should I use same amp? the euro4000? Is it ok to drive two 18's.

Thanx again guys.
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post #13 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 07:12 PM
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I just skimmed the previous posts quickly so this may have been thrown out already, but are you high passing your subs in your receiver by chance? Also have you tried different room placements to test response? I agree with everyone that the room doesn't help you much, but I would rule out all variables before deciding you must buy more displacement.
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post #14 of 47 Old 09-18-2012, 08:07 PM
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No wonder you got no bass. To be direct, you need more power and bigger / more subs. 8 18's and 2 FP14000's ought to be a good start for a room that size. I used to have a 35x45x15ft living room and I used to play badminton in it (I'm not joking). Your 25x45x15 room is getting close to the size of a real IMAX, Barn or Prince of Brunei dude.

I'm currently running 14 channels of bass amplification with a bass generating woofer on each one (that is 35,400 peak-watts total), in a room that is just under 1/2 the cubic volume of your room!!!
Your gonna need to step up and build an uber system for that uber room! eek.gif
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post #15 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yeah. Turn that filter off! It should be dip switch 3, iirc. Set it to off.
I made a simulation of what 1,600w would do to the excursion in your enclosure. You could easily power TWO Titanic Mk3's with a single ep4000.

Someone calls me a 'Quick Draw'? Really? I thought I was called 'Sub-bass simulation McGuillicutty'. *laughs* jk tongue.gif

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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

That is a huge room for 2 little 15" subs. You need more subs. Also 1 bridged ep per Titanic 15 = complete destruction of that 15, especially in a 5.5 CF box, as Scott already pointed out.
I have a room ca little over half that size and have 4 x 21's and 6 x 18's in it lol.
As far as amps go, don't read to much into "rated output" It generally doesn't mean much. the ep4000 is an amazing amp for the money but running your subs bridged, your just asking for a VC meltdown I'm afraid.

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No wonder you got no bass. To be direct, you need more power and bigger / more subs. 8 18's and 2 FP14000's ought to be a good start for a room that size. I used to have a 35x45x15ft living room and I used to play badminton in it (I'm not joking). Your 25x45x15 room is getting close to the size of a real IMAX, Barn or Prince of Brunei dude.
I'm currently running 14 channels of bass amplification with a bass generating woofer on each one (that is 35,400 peak-watts total), in a room that is just under 1/2 the cubic volume of your room!!!

Too much power!!! No wait, not enough power!...lol

I tell you what aard, if you are looking to spend more money these guys are very very convincing... Spend too much time around here and they will convert you to the basshead you never knew that you were...

Here is my suggestion to you. While the content that you play (jazz) may have some very bass competent tracks, the genre itself isn't well known for giving subs a great workout.

Maybe take the time to download some sinewaves from Realm of Excursion. Play them through your system just to get a good gauge on your sub/amp behavior at a particular consistent fq. As Scotts modeling shows, you should have MORE than enough amp to push your subs given your current box size. Of course you need to heed the dip switch recommendations and take a look at your AVR, as tgse3 suggested, to see if you have a crossover set as well.

You mentioned you initally had filters set for the sub to output 50-120Hz, correct? Man, in my opinion that sounds like the job of a woofer not a "sub" woofer. There are a lot of people set their crossover at 50Hz for all content below that to be played through their subs.

Of course, I don't think I will ever not recommend more bass, so if you are down for building 8 more cabinets with 18's then I'll follow your build thread with a smile!

You should probably go for the FTW-21 in such a large space! 4, 8 or 16 of those sound like some real fun!

 

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post #16 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow folks, ty for all the info. It is a very large room.......
I have all low cuts off, sending everything from 0 to 100 to the subs. I don't know if I can go through the work involved in making that many more subs. Think I would divide the room first! EV has some self powered stuff that seems very reasonable, is that a possible route? I think they even offer some self powered subs, 15, and 18.

Thanx again folks for all the input, I have gained much knowledge here !!
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post #17 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
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Wow folks, ty for all the info. It is a very large room.......
I have all low cuts off, sending everything from 0 to 100 to the subs. I don't know if I can go through the work involved in making that many more subs. Think I would divide the room first! EV has some self powered stuff that seems very reasonable, is that a possible route? I think they even offer some self powered subs, 15, and 18.
Thanx again folks for all the input, I have gained much knowledge here !!

What your going through is the same as MANY others have before you including myself. My first real sub was a paradigm ps-1000. Nothing special but at the time, I was on cloud nine. I moved into a bigger place, the 1000 didn't cut it, so I moved to a PW-2200. It was ok for a while but again, not even close to enough. then came 1 servo 15, then 2, then 3 then 4...... still not enough. I have as much bass in my room as one can psychically take but IMO, I still want more... I'll tell you it's a sickness but at the end of the day, it's my hobby and I love it.

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post #18 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like I will be building a wall, taking 1/4 of the space of the room for my setup, which will give me a 25 feet long by around 15 wide room. Makes the wife happy that I don't have to spend $$$ on more equipment, and a wall will help keep the noise down in the rest of house! Everyone wins! I will start wall next weekend, I will keep everyone posted as to my results. Hopefully 2 - 15's in that size room will produce closer to what I am looking for. Thanx again everyone!
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post #19 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 10:50 AM
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My room is 14' X 28' with 8 foot ceilings and I am currently using 8 subs, each with dual drivers for a total of 16 total subs and I still want more! Actually that much bass is enough for about 99% of the people out there, we are just the 1% that everyone always talks about during election time wink.gif

We can all see the signs aardvark, you are well on your way to being a bass addict like the rest of us, Welcome to the Club biggrin.gif

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post #20 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
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Looks like I will be building a wall, taking 1/4 of the space of the room for my setup, which will give me a 25 feet long by around 15 wide room. Makes the wife happy that I don't have to spend $$$ on more equipment, and a wall will help keep the noise down in the rest of house! Everyone wins! I will start wall next weekend, I will keep everyone posted as to my results. Hopefully 2 - 15's in that size room will produce closer to what I am looking for. Thanx again everyone!

And hey, if you aren't happy with their performance in the new space.... consider taking a look at more pro-style, high sensitivity bass systems. The typical high sensitivity bass driver has less excursion but for what they lack in deep bass they make up for more in the region you are interested in. That and maybe a horn loaded system if you can stand a physically large bass system. Very high output!

Hope your project works out though. Sorry if I came off jerky or anything yesterday. Welcome to AVS.

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post #21 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvark1355 View Post

Looks like I will be building a wall, taking 1/4 of the space of the room for my setup, which will give me a 25 feet long by around 15 wide room. Makes the wife happy that I don't have to spend $$$ on more equipment, and a wall will help keep the noise down in the rest of house! Everyone wins! I will start wall next weekend, I will keep everyone posted as to my results. Hopefully 2 - 15's in that size room will produce closer to what I am looking for. Thanx again everyone!

Awwwww snap! Keep in mind there is a science behind design and optimal room dimensions of the space. Also if you are going to build, consider doing it right! Channels, Green Glue, double layer sheetrock, acoustical treatments, etc....

The drastic reduction of space to pressurize, in addition to implementation of acoustical treatments/bass traps, will have a more signifigant impact vs. adding a few more subs to your auditorium... Sound proofing your room will definitely please the wife when you feel like playing. Especially if you let all of these ULF freaks influnce you into stepping up your displacement game...

1/4 of your space is still double my 13 x 14 space and I'm running two measly 18's... If I didn't have anyone to answer to, I'd have at least 8 myself!!! As it stands now I'm trying to slow play 2 more...

 

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post #22 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 02:20 PM
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Post a pic of your space man! I'd like to see this "open concept" layout you got going on...

 

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post #23 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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All good, I am still learning. Are the specs of those FP 1400's real? Or did I have too much scotch?....wow
I attached some pics, I am currently using the Mirage M3's as my mains, but as you can see I have a pair of Peaveys I hook up once in awhile. I have an old SAE A502 I am using to drive the Mirages right now, and the two euro4000's for the subs. Right at the edge of the "dance floor" and the sunken pit is where I would build a wall the whole way across, then move the whole mess over to the left wall (if you look I have my projector screen on left wall anyways). I will keep everyone up to speed on my new project.
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post #24 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 05:57 PM
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Nice place!

I would be worried about having too much scotch at your place and then taking a header on my way back to the bar eek.gif I am a bad drunk though biggrin.gif

That room would be tough to get loud levels of bass, you have the right idea in closing it off. If not then a Pro type bass system would make more sense which sacrifices some low end for more volume.

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post #25 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 06:08 PM
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It's a very good possibility that those subs are too far away from the corners to take advantage of any loading. First thing is to move them.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #26 of 47 Old 09-19-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

It's a very good possibility that those subs are too far away from the corners to take advantage of any loading. First thing is to move them.
+1, they need to be less than 3 feet from the corners, and will work best aimed into the corner from about a foot away. Hoffman's Iron Law also applies, for subs to keep up with mains they need to be at least twice the physical size of the mains. A pair of fifteens don't stand a chance, you need at least four.

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post #27 of 47 Old 09-20-2012, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I did have them in the corners, but not FIRING into the corners, and I had them in tight to the corners not out a foot, I will give that a try tonight. Thanx again everyone. I am looking into a twin 18" vented project using Seleniums. I REALLY do not want to reduce the size of the room......kinda makes the place. Maybe, just maybe two18's will get me a little closer to what I want.
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post #28 of 47 Old 09-20-2012, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvark1355 View Post

Maybe, just maybe two18's will get me a little closer to what I want.
The difference between two fifteens and two eighteens is slight, perhaps 3dB. Adding two more identical fifteens will get you 6dB, and offers the advantage of more placement options.

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post #29 of 47 Old 09-20-2012, 06:59 AM
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All good advice so far.  Since you listen to jazz dominantly and haven't expressed any interest in UULF I would also just recommend considering ported/horn alignments for your subs.  The sheer size of your room works against you in terms of any cabin gain to help out the sealed subs reach ultra lows anyways.  IMO, with a room that size your best served to pick as low a tuning frequency as you can spatially accomodate, and maximize your efficiency down to that point.

 

What are the dims of your sealed enclosures?  You may be able to retrofit your enclosures with porting and since you already have eq it would only cost what you spend in PVC pipe.

 

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post #30 of 47 Old 09-20-2012, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Current "OUTSIDE dimensions are 24 in wide, 22 high, 22 deep. I have a ton of internal bracing, and taking into account the volume of the driver itself, and all my bracing, my boxes have around 5.5-5.7 cub/ft internally. I am really looking forward to getting home tonight and try what Jinjuku said and try them pointed into the corners a foot or so out. That is one thing I have not tried. All the calculations I did on these current speakers all say to use them in sealed only boxes, so I really do not want to vent them. I do like what Bill said about 18's only adding a little more than a 15. I still have all my "blueprints" from my 15's it would not be hard to produce 2 more. You guys rock, TY for all the great advice, it is appreciated very much.
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