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post #1891 of 2273 Old 09-09-2013, 10:59 AM
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Yes I did, and I will post a response shortly, thanks for reminding me biggrin.gif

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post #1892 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 07:37 AM
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Dug through this thread...didn't really see this answered (more than likely I missed it).

I plan on starting with two (2) HT18's in sealed 3 ft^3 enclosures in a pancake style (e.g. not a pure cube). I will move to four (4) HT18's if I can't get my low end "low enough".

Based upon this which amp is the correct amp to handle both cases? Which sub variants (D2 or D4) is the best?

I keep thinking the D2's really work out well with the CV5000 with either 1 (4 ohm), 2 (8 ohm) or 4 (4 ohm) subs since you can stay in bridged the whole time. However, the iNuke 6000 4 channel with 4 independent, the D4's appear better since you can but with two subs..the D2's are the right answer.

Spin Spin Spin...keep leaning towards D2's and the CV5000 but not sure.

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post #1893 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 10:20 AM
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cv5k is a great amp, but also look at the peavey ipr7500. It is not bridgable, but right now I have four of my SI's on a single channel and they fit quite nicely that way. If I wanted more power to them, I could break them down to two per channel @ 2 ohm stereo and have more power than the driver could ever handle. The peavey is a good bargain for sure. if you end up only with two total, wire the D2's up and have one per channel at 4 ohm stereo, if you get four, wire all 4 up to a single channel if you are worried about overpowering them, or do two per channel at 2 ohm for max wattage from the IPR.

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post #1894 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

Dug through this thread...didn't really see this answered (more than likely I missed it).

I plan on starting with two (2) HT18's in sealed 3 ft^3 enclosures in a pancake style (e.g. not a pure cube). I will move to four (4) HT18's if I can't get my low end "low enough".

Based upon this which amp is the correct amp to handle both cases? Which sub variants (D2 or D4) is the best?

I keep thinking the D2's really work out well with the CV5000 with either 1 (4 ohm), 2 (8 ohm) or 4 (4 ohm) subs since you can stay in bridged the whole time. However, the iNuke 6000 4 channel with 4 independent, the D4's appear better since you can but with two subs..the D2's are the right answer.

Spin Spin Spin...keep leaning towards D2's and the CV5000 but not sure.

Pick the amp first, then the coil configuration.

To pick the amp you need to decide which features are important to you. If you want class D for the efficiency or if you want built in DSP (if the 4 channel nu6k is available w/ DSP) then go with the Inuke. Keep in mind that, though built in DSP is cheap and convenient, a separate DSP will make adding another amp later a little less painful.

If you like heavy power supplies and have a 30A dedicated circuit for you sub amp then the CV5k is the better pick.

edit: +1 to beastaudio...I would go with the peavey if I were buying and amp today.
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post #1895 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

cv5k is a great amp, but also look at the peavey ipr7500. It is not bridgable, but right now I have four of my SI's on a single channel and they fit quite nicely that way. If I wanted more power to them, I could break them down to two per channel @ 2 ohm stereo and have more power than the driver could ever handle. The peavey is a good bargain for sure. if you end up only with two total, wire the D2's up and have one per channel at 4 ohm stereo, if you get four, wire all 4 up to a single channel if you are worried about overpowering them, or do two per channel at 2 ohm for max wattage from the IPR.

Maybe i'm a bit of a novice here, I know that rating of the HT18's is ~600 W. But it appears that people seem to push them harder in the low range in sealed configs. What is a practical limit? Is it still 600W or are people pushing them right to the XMAX based upon their enclosure? In 3 ft^2 box, it takes about ~1400W @ ~10Hz to hit that mark.
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Pick the amp first, then the coil configuration.

To pick the amp you need to decide which features are important to you. If you want class D for the efficiency or if you want built in DSP (if the 4 channel nu6k is available w/ DSP) then go with the Inuke. Keep in mind that, though built in DSP is cheap and convenient, a separate DSP will make adding another amp later a little less painful.

If you like heavy power supplies and have a 30A dedicated circuit for you sub amp then the CV5k is the better pick.

edit: +1 to beastaudio...I would go with the peavey if I were buying and amp today.
[/quote]

Forgot about the peavy. This thing seems like a real truck. However, not sure if it is "too much amp". However, for higher crest factor waveforms (which most audio is)...it might have that "headroom" to reduce distortion for hard hits. Guess I need to know what these subs can really handle and then pick the amp to match them as close as possible.

As for the external DSP. Seems like a slam dunk to me. For a $125, for four channels of balanced out seems like a hell of a deal. If I was running just two subs, I would probably change my answer. This is not the improbable case. While my basement is very large in cubes (5000 cubes), i'm not looking to destroy the world...i just don't want any weakness down to 20 Hz in main viewing area.


This is my crux, do I over provision on an amp (& DSP) that i may never fully use but will save money if I move to four subs.

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post #1896 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 12:32 PM
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Yes, in 3 cubes you can go more than 600 watts and the sub will be fine. 1400 watts to reach xmax at 10hz sounds about right, and a good fit. 1000 watts yields a little additional protection. As far as over-provisioning, I have never been amp limited and want to be. I know that COULD cause danger thermally to the subs, but I am not running high freq sine waves here so I don't really see it as a huge problem here, as you shouldn't either. Just set the gains properly and don't mess with em after a few beverages....Easier said than done, I guess....

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post #1897 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 02:01 PM
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Yeah, I hate seeing clip lights so the more amp the better. I also wouldn't do 3 cu ft. You will most likely have to boost the low end [more] to get a flat response which will put more power through the coil causing more power compression. Bigger box = more efficient down low = less power compression = better bass.
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post #1898 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Yeah, I hate seeing clip lights so the more amp the better. I also wouldn't do 3 cu ft. You will most likely have to boost the low end [more] to get a flat response which will put more power through the coil causing more power compression. Bigger box = more efficient down low = less power compression = better bass.

I choose 3 cubic feet for a number of reasons. Not all of use are blessed with rooms which allow large boxes. wink.gif Life is just full of compromises.

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post #1899 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
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I choose 3 cubic feet for a number of reasons. Not all of use are blessed with rooms which allow large boxes. wink.gif Life is just full of compromises.

Sure enough, except these were really designed for 6 cuft, 600 watts. I knocked it down to 4 and gave them 1100 which worked, but knocking it down even further puts you into territory where you are starting to need more power than the driver MIGHT be able to take to get it to perform admirably. With that said, 1100 watts on 4cuft has been fine and I have never heard a bad noise from the drivers, even with a 12dB LT boost, so take that for what it's worth smile.gif

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post #1900 of 2273 Old 09-19-2013, 08:30 PM
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Oh man..... Saturday can't come soon enough. The fed x man has 6 large boxes for me. smile.gif


.... damn.... me has no boxes for what the fed x man has. frown.gif

tongue.gif
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post #1901 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
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I choose 3 cubic feet for a number of reasons. Not all of use are blessed with rooms which allow large boxes. wink.gif Life is just full of compromises.

True. I'm interested to hear how they work in 3cu ft. Winisd predicts you only give up about a db from 10-25hz. I would think that you would be in the realm of being thermally limited well before non-linearity becomes an issue with program content.
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post #1902 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 06:16 AM
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Sure enough, except these were really designed for 6 cuft, 600 watts. I knocked it down to 4 and gave them 1100 which worked, but knocking it down even further puts you into territory where you are starting to need more power than the driver MIGHT be able to take to get it to perform admirably. With that said, 1100 watts on 4cuft has been fine and I have never heard a bad noise from the drivers, even with a 12dB LT boost, so take that for what it's worth smile.gif

The one thing that WinISD has been very good for is "compare and contrast". If I go with 4 cubic feet then the 4 channel behringer will probably do more than well enough (I haven't heard anything saying they couldn't do 2 ohms) with D4's. It shaves a bit of the cost of CV5000 or the peavy. Actually it nearly shaves enough to pay for a whole sub and enclosure. However, if I go with 3 cubes, i can pretty much maximize the use of a Cerwin/Peavy while at the same time creating a small enough enclosure that I can keep it hidden from eyes (I will be having a false wall that gives ~16-20" of depth). But as you said (and nograve)...at below 20 Hz...am I going to be pushing these guys too hard.

But here is my argument:

4xHT18's, 12 total cubes, 4kW total = never violate XMAX, SPL = 106.5 dB @ 10 Hz
4xHT18's, 16 total cubes, 4kW total = violate XMAX @ 10 Hz, SPL = 108 dB @ 10 Hz


I will still have a lot of oomph down to 20 Hz (which is the core requirement) and still have some reasonable "oomph" down to 10 Hz.
Quote:
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True. I'm interested to hear how they work in 3cu ft. Winisd predicts you only give up about a db from 10-25hz. I would think that you would be in the realm of being thermally limited well before non-linearity becomes an issue with program content.
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Sure enough, except these were really designed for 6 cuft, 600 watts. I knocked it down to 4 and gave them 1100 which worked, but knocking it down even further puts you into territory where you are starting to need more power than the driver MIGHT be able to take to get it to perform admirably. With that said, 1100 watts on 4cuft has been fine and I have never heard a bad noise from the drivers, even with a 12dB LT boost, so take that for what it's worth smile.gif

So based upon above, you said "1100 W" appears okay. It appears I reduce my volumetric footprint by 25%. If only I had better wood working skills and equipment, I would probably take the time to build both variants and see what is really going on. If money was no object though...I would be doing 5400's in 1 cubic foot boxes. eek.gif That would make my wife SOOOOOO happy.
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post #1903 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

4xHT18's, 12 total cubes, 4kW total = never violate XMAX, SPL = 106.5 dB @ 10 Hz
Agree with the bold
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Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

4xHT18's, 16 total cubes, 4kW total = violate XMAX @ 10 Hz, SPL = 108 dB @ 10 Hz

Looking at how the sub models, I don't agree. Not with program content, unless you are applying unusually large amounts of boost at 5-10hz and have well over 1kw per driver.

Even with a 10 hz signal generator you are still almost a mm under the 23mm xmax with a 1kw amp riding the limiter and assuming no power compression.

Again, it's an academic discussion since you have other reasons for 3cu ft. cool.gif
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post #1904 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 07:26 AM
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Either way, xmech is ~35mm. You may exceed xmax a little if you are giving it a ton of power, but you still won't be anywhere near xmech. Data-bass says xmax is about 25mm from their testing too.

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Just another data point. I'm running two SI 18 d4s each on their own channel of a clone FP10kQ at 8 ohms. That is in theory ~1300 watts per driver in 4 cu. sealed, and I've run them up to the clip lights frequently. Sometimes I get a little magic smoke smell wink.gif, but they hang in there. I think with program material you're in the clear well above the rated amount.
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post #1906 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 02:19 PM
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"But here is my argument..."

just keep in mind:
- signal chain tends to have a little rolloff in it
- amps tend to have a little rolloff in them
- t/s parameters are SMALL signal parameters
- motor strength tends to weaken as xmax is approached, so actual excursion for a given power level isn't quite as much as winisd may show.

but, winisd is good to get some sort of first order approximation of what the system will be doing given different designs.
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post #1907 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 02:23 PM
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also, keep in mind, that power through the driver is very frequency dependent. this can be seen on the apparent power tab in winisd.

it is very different running sine waves at 10hz than sine waves at 30hz in a driver such as the si 18.

here is the si 18 in 3.5 cubic feet sealed with an 80hz low pass filter and "1100 watts" worth of voltage applied. it doesn't get anywhere near 1100 watts until down towards 10hz.

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post #1908 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"But here is my argument..."

just keep in mind:
- signal chain tends to have a little rolloff in it
- amps tend to have a little rolloff in them
- t/s parameters are SMALL signal parameters
- motor strength tends to weaken as xmax is approached, so actual excursion for a given power level isn't quite as much as winisd may show.

but, winisd is good to get some sort of first order approximation of what the system will be doing given different designs.

Quote:
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also, keep in mind, that power through the driver is very frequency dependent. this can be seen on the apparent power tab in winisd.

it is very different running sine waves at 10hz than sine waves at 30hz in a driver such as the si 18.

here is the si 18 in 3.5 cubic feet sealed with an 80hz low pass filter and "1100 watts" worth of voltage applied. it doesn't get anywhere near 1100 watts until down towards 10hz.


^^^^^^^^^^^^

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post #1909 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 03:40 PM
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I very much appreciate that subwoofers are a very rich topic. So please, feel free to tell me "you should consider this". It does influence my decision...just don't know if it will change it thought. So many thanks again!

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #1910 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy497 View Post

Just another data point. I'm running two SI 18 d4s each on their own channel of a clone FP10kQ at 8 ohms. That is in theory ~1300 watts per driver in 4 cu. sealed, and I've run them up to the clip lights frequently. Sometimes I get a little magic smoke smell wink.gif, but they hang in there. I think with program material you're in the clear well above the rated amount.


Magic smoke = terribleness....Don't celebrate it wink.gif You are buying your time if that is the case. That said, I never got "the stink" with "1,100" watts. Truth be told, the measured specs on the fp would insinuate the SI's were never getting that much, but I certainly don't want to open a bag of worms....TOO LATE eek.gif

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post #1911 of 2273 Old 09-20-2013, 05:49 PM
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Hmm, and he said sealed too. Wonder what they smell like inside the box eek.gif
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Nick, you got too much time on your hands to design your "Working Man's Theater" logo. But you do have a nice theater.

Just had to to jab you on this .

I do science too! Chemistry for me.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy497 View Post

Just another data point. I'm running two SI 18 d4s each on their own channel of a clone FP10kQ at 8 ohms. That is in theory ~1300 watts per driver in 4 cu. sealed, and I've run them up to the clip lights frequently. Sometimes I get a little magic smoke smell wink.gif, but they hang in there. I think with program material you're in the clear well above the rated amount.


WOW! You've got some bull sized balls, or you just don't care which I could understand. Make sure you update us on how those things keep handling the clip lights and their ability to keep putting out that 'magic' smoke. tongue.gif
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Nick, you got too much time on your hands to design your "Working Man's Theater" logo. But you do have a nice theater.

Just had to to jab you on this .

I do science too! Chemistry for me.

Haha!

I stole the basic layout off the internets and just inserted my thread name..... Thanks for the compliment on the theater!

I majored in Biology and minored Chemistry. Ive done both(Biology and Chemistry) but currently workng on the Chemistry side. We just shared electrons bro now we be covalently bonded. biggrin.gif

Cheers!
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We just shared electrons bro now we be covalently bonded. biggrin.gif

The geek factor is strong in this one! cool.gif

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not sure if it relates to stereo integrity's new subwoofer, but it certainly is related to their 18 that is on sale and it certainly demonstrates that i'm a propeller head:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347

maybe if more guys knew that they could build subs, more guys would buy subwoofer drivers! :-)~

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not sure if it relates to stereo integrity's new subwoofer, but it certainly is related to their 18 that is on sale and it certainly demonstrates that i'm a propeller head:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1489541/large-ported-dayton-ho18s#post_23711347

maybe if more guys knew that they could build subs, more guys would buy subwoofer drivers! :-)~

Thats a great idea!
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post #1918 of 2273 Old 09-21-2013, 12:33 PM
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i just plopped out a dual opposed cab in that same post. the cut sheet is quite simple. nice big dual opposed beast...for something like the cost of seven handy panels from home depot that should run all of about $70!

well, not including the flush mount grills, which might cost another $20 to make. :-)~



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post #1919 of 2273 Old 09-21-2013, 12:43 PM
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Looks good. I just noticed those 2x4 panels for the first time yesterday. Good deal if you cant haul or have the resources to cut etc.
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post #1920 of 2273 Old 09-21-2013, 12:46 PM
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I ordered a si 18 yesterday . Do you get a tracking number at some point ? How long does it on average take to get delivered ?
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