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post #2161 of 2273 Old 11-04-2013, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Does that mean no copy of your demo track ? tongue.gif

Haha. Not at all. I'll host the track on our web site soon and provide a link. Note that the track is VERY HARSH on your subwoofers.
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post #2162 of 2273 Old 11-05-2013, 07:43 AM
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Nick, if I remember right your 600 watt rating was for a 6 cu ft enclosure? Could that be why a lot of guys are using 1000 watts or more are also using 4 cu ft boxes which is why they are having no problems?

It seems like you are saying 600 watts period but I wanted to make sure.


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post #2163 of 2273 Old 11-05-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Nick, if I remember right your 600 watt rating was for a 6 cu ft enclosure? Could that be why a lot of guys are using 1000 watts or more are also using 4 cu ft boxes which is why they are having no problems?

It seems like you are saying 600 watts period but I wanted to make sure.

600w will generate more heat in 4cu ft than in 6 cu ft. The rating would have to be less than 600w for 4 cu ft.
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post #2164 of 2273 Old 11-05-2013, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Nick, if I remember right your 600 watt rating was for a 6 cu ft enclosure? Could that be why a lot of guys are using 1000 watts or more are also using 4 cu ft boxes which is why they are having no problems?

It seems like you are saying 600 watts period but I wanted to make sure.

In reality, they are playing with fire.... Its only a matter of time before... poof. The wrong bass noteat high levels. etc.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #2165 of 2273 Old 11-05-2013, 12:05 PM
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I shook the stinking lock loose to my basement last night playing my setup so loud. The dang knob was sitting on the ground when I came up. I was playing all kinds of silly dubstep with some of the hardest hitting stuff I own, they were just cruising.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #2166 of 2273 Old 11-05-2013, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I shook the stinking lock loose to my basement last night playing my setup so loud. The dang knob was sitting on the ground when I came up. I was playing all kinds of silly dubstep with some of the hardest hitting stuff I own, they were just cruising.

That's awesome...! Was it a knob that rattled screws out and then rattled out of the door hole or what?

I knocked one of my sound panels off the wall the other day blasting bass I love you and a couple others. They are very well mounted and on top of the mount they're held in place magnetically. I must have looked at those things for a month to see if they budged during different bass tracks and not once did they move an inch.

But that was before the SI 18 / Peavey combo.

I got up, looked behind me and there it was laying against the back of a theater chair.

But..... to rattle a lock out..... cool.gif

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post #2167 of 2273 Old 11-06-2013, 06:11 AM
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Haha, it was the deadbolt knob. Basically, the decorative knob is screwed onto the actual mechanism that locks the dead bolt, and a hex wrench secures it in place. The vibrating worked the hex screw out and proceeded to knock the knob right off the door.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #2168 of 2273 Old 11-06-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Nick, if I remember right your 600 watt rating was for a 6 cu ft enclosure? Could that be why a lot of guys are using 1000 watts or more are also using 4 cu ft boxes which is why they are having no problems?

It seems like you are saying 600 watts period but I wanted to make sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

600w will generate more heat in 4cu ft than in 6 cu ft. The rating would have to be less than 600w for 4 cu ft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

In reality, they are playing with fire.... Its only a matter of time before... poof. The wrong bass noteat high levels. etc.

So a smaller, sealed box protects the driver from bottoming out but increases the heat build up inside, partly down to less volume of air to dissipate heat and partly down to running more power through it to achieve the same output as a larger box?

Is that correct?



If so, how about in this situation:

2 drivers in a 7 cu ft box
One mounted spider/magnet out, one mounted normally (Push-Pull, as they called it, rightly or wrongly)

Each driver will only 'see' 3.5 cu ft, therefore should be protected from bottoming out?

Would the internal volume of air only having one driver magnet assembly in it mean that the increased ratio of air volume to driver assembly dissipates more heat, therefore protecting the driver mounted 'normally' from cooking itself, while the driver mounted magnet-out naturally cools itself better because it is in the open air, which is free to circulate around the magnet and moving parts as they oscillate?

??
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post #2169 of 2273 Old 11-06-2013, 10:14 AM
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A slightly smaller enclosure will not 'build up heat faster'. Heheh, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like we'd like to think it does. Actually, a lot of heat is mostly kept in the motor structure. This heat that stays inside is what contributes to power compression and all subwoofer drivers are subject to it. Sure the vents help but just like a port on vented subwoofer the air is constantly sliding back and forth. It doesn't blow out like a hair dryer. All the venting around the motor and spider on a driver helps with cooling but what really does the job is heatsinking. There is a lot of metal to absorb heat.

So no, your smaller 4cuft sub is not going to run "hotter" than a comparative 6cuft version. wink.gif
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post #2170 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 08:06 AM
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Cool, good to know, cheers! smile.gif


As a slightly random thought...


... I wonder if mounting a fan inside the box to circulate the air inside it would have any benefit?? I doubt it but it was an idle thought so I thought I'd ask it! tongue.gif
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post #2171 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 09:18 AM
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... I wonder if mounting a fan inside the box to circulate the air inside it would have any benefit?? I doubt it but it was an idle thought so I thought I'd ask it! tongue.gif

Yeah, no. tongue.gif

That's what I am saying is that there is little to no effect at all to ambient temperature inside the box. The heat is inside the motor where all the action happens. smile.gif


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post #2172 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 05:46 PM
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The fan motor would add heat and noise.
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post #2173 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

That's what I am saying is that there is little to no effect at all to ambient temperature inside the box. The heat is inside the motor where all the action happens. smile.gif

That heat doesn't stay inside the motor forever, or eventually it would melt.

Noah
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post #2174 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 07:57 PM
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Nobody said it would stay inside forever. Just that the heat is .... inside the motor and not all outside of it. C'mon man. wink.giftongue.gif


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post #2175 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 08:10 PM
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If I understood you correctly, your point was that the heat was inside the motor, not elsewhere in the box, but sooner or later it has to makes it way to the outside world.

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post #2176 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 08:27 PM
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Okay, you're right. But what was being said was that there is enough heat inside the enclosure that there would be a difference so significant in one with less internal space would have to actually worry about it. What I am saying is that there is little consequence to the ambient temperature inside a subwoofer enclosure and that if there is any heat to worry about at all (whatever size enclosure) that it will be in the motor and that's where one should worry about any heat.


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post #2177 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 08:28 PM
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Doesn't heat dissipate ??? cool.gif

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post #2178 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 08:37 PM
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Yyyyesss...

Look. What you guys are saying is that the heat will leave the driver and into the enclosure or whatever surrounding space. Yes, of course.

I'm saying that the difference between a 4cuft and a 6cuft will have negligible at best difference in recorded ambient temperature inside that one should have to actually worry about it.


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post #2179 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 08:54 PM
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what scott is trying to say is that the driver's ability to absorb heat is soooooooo much greater than the air inside the cab that even doubling the amount of air inside the cab will reduce the temperature of the driver by a negligible amount.

kind of like this:

DRIVER + air

DRIVER + two times air

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #2180 of 2273 Old 11-07-2013, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yyyyesss...

Look. What you guys are saying is that the heat will leave the driver and into the enclosure or whatever surrounding space. Yes, of course.

I'm saying that the difference between a 4cuft and a 6cuft will have negligible at best difference in recorded ambient temperature inside that one should have to actually worry about it.

Sorry,..... I was actually responding to Noah's question about the heat having to go somewhere.

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post #2181 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 05:48 AM
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Thanks for the clarification, all! smile.gif
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post #2182 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 06:01 AM
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Here's a patent idea! cool.gif

Put a heat sensor near the coil of the sub and connect one end of the cable through it.
When it reaches a certain temperature the circuit opens!

BAM! No more overheating coils.

Good luck to whomever does this.

I don't build speakers so I don't care...except you saw it here first wink.gif


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post #2183 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Here's a patent idea! cool.gif

Put a heat sensor near the coil of the sub and connect one end of the cable through it.
When it reaches a certain temperature the circuit opens!

BAM! No more overheating coils.

Good luck to whomever does this.

I don't build speakers so I don't care...except you saw it here first wink.gif

That would be a reliability nightmare. The only reason to have such a device would be for safety. burning up your sub because you wanted to have a little too much fun isn't a safety issue. Well, maybe it is when your wife finds out you had to buy more speakers. tongue.gif

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #2184 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 09:28 AM
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The air volume of the box has almost nothing to do with heat buildup in the coil.

There is how it works:

A smaller box takes more power to reach a given displacement of air than does a larger box.
Small enclosure -> more boost -> more power through the coil -> more heat must be dissipated by the coil -> more power compression -> less SPL -> more cranking of the stupid knob -> burnt coils.
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post #2185 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what scott is trying to say is that the driver's ability to absorb heat is soooooooo much greater than the air inside the cab that even doubling the amount of air inside the cab will reduce the temperature of the driver by a negligible amount.

kind of like this:

DRIVER + air

DRIVER + two times air

Heheh. Thanks, John. Better said than I. smile.gif

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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Sorry,..... I was actually responding to Noah's question about the heat having to go somewhere.

Sorry PDX. Didn't mean to come off snippy or anything. Lol, I was also mostly responding to my boy Noah though too. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Here's a patent idea! cool.gif

Put a heat sensor near the coil of the sub and connect one end of the cable through it.
When it reaches a certain temperature the circuit opens!

BAM! No more overheating coils.

Good luck to whomever does this.

I don't build speakers so I don't care...except you saw it here first wink.gif

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Originally Posted by Trepidati0n View Post

That would be a reliability nightmare. The only reason to have such a device would be for safety. burning up your sub because you wanted to have a little too much fun isn't a safety issue. Well, maybe it is when your wife finds out you had to buy more speakers. tongue.gif

Yeah. It wouldn't be built into the motor, I doubt anyway. I'd think using a laser thermometer or some form of optical sensor mounting near the coil and do the job that way. *shrugs* Idk. Lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

The air volume of the box has almost nothing to do with heat buildup in the coil.

There is how it works:

A smaller box takes more power to reach a given displacement of air than does a larger box.
Small enclosure -> more boost -> more power through the coil -> more heat must be dissipated by the coil -> more power compression -> less SPL -> more cranking of the stupid knob -> burnt coils.

This is mostly true. Very good. However, very often 'burnt coils' are done because of high current sustained in the upper frequencies. Often 50-60hz or higher. That's where the thermal damage is done. It is true that in a sealed subwoofer (with no high pass filter) will get a lot of current down low but also there is the most excursion which will aid in cooling. Up in the 60hz and higher frequencies there is often little to no excursion and cooling is much less effective leading to actual burnt coils.


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post #2186 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Here's a patent idea! cool.gif

Put a heat sensor near the coil of the sub and connect one end of the cable through it.
When it reaches a certain temperature the circuit opens!

BAM! No more overheating coils.

Good luck to whomever does this.

I don't build speakers so I don't care...except you saw it here first wink.gif

Well, my ol' Cerwin Vegas (still own them) employ a thermistor (a PTC resistor), which exhibits a positive temperature coefficient ... meaning the resistance increases sharply at a pre-determined temperature. Granted, this wasn't woofer protection, but if the playback level exceeded a certain point, the level decreased until the PTC resistor device cooled down. Some CV loudspeakers had fuses, some had these devices.

It only happened one time, and believe me the playback was high. In the 80's, I was DJ'ing a wedding reception, using my CV-12"-three-ways for the tops, with subs. Suddenly the HF was muted ... I thought I fried something, but quickly remembered the protection circuit. Took a minute or two and the system was back up, albeit at a bit lower level!

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post #2187 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 12:40 PM
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Fair enough, Scott.

TBH I hadn't been following the thread and was missing context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yyyyesss...

Look. What you guys are saying is that the heat will leave the driver and into the enclosure or whatever surrounding space. Yes, of course.

I'm saying that the difference between a 4cuft and a 6cuft will have negligible at best difference in recorded ambient temperature inside that one should have to actually worry about it.

Noah
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post #2188 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

This is mostly true. Very good. However, very often 'burnt coils' are done because of high current sustained in the upper frequencies. Often 50-60hz or higher. That's where the thermal damage is done. It is true that in a sealed subwoofer (with no high pass filter) will get a lot of current down low but also there is the most excursion which will aid in cooling. Up in the 60hz and higher frequencies there is often little to no excursion and cooling is much less effective leading to actual burnt coils.

Interesting, and yes, I'm sure that it could happen and often does, but looking at this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

sorry to hear about your drivers guys.
And going by what most of us are doing with boost below 20hz I would guess it would be very hard to do. The 2 or more 18 driver setups that these burnt coil reports are coming from are way more efficient at 60 hz in room than below 20hz. So, maybe it is possible with some content that is just BRUTAL at 60hz, but my money is on the low stuff. wink.gif
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post #2189 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 02:25 PM
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Smart man. You would think looking at the current graph that the killer stuff would be that low and indeed it could be. However, now we are talking about content. I'll be the first guy to tell you there is bass aaalllll the way to down to at least 2-3hz. We know this. There is much documentation on this subject of which I participate in. We have seen the threads, we have seen the graphs.

But.

Content down low is still few and far between that of the HEAVY amount of content that is in the 60hz and above region. The ULF <20hz stuff is almost always transient in nature and hardly ever sustained for any amount of time. I mean, we could cherry pick the occasional Pulse Server Room scene type sustained bass but then we have to look at even that harder. But even something like that isn't as killer as higher bass content because there is excursion to provide air cooling. The fact that there is so little sustained content and that it is aided by hopefully effective cooling is another contributor. Also the actual level of the signal is almost never 0dBFS in the <20hz range.

No. Nnnnnooooo I am not convinced. It has been in my experience (and those of others) that the deep, deep stuff usually will damage a driver with physical overdriving. Ie: going beyond rated throw. It's bass higher up in frequency that burns coils.

Lol. I'm tired. It's Friday and my brain isn't working all that great. Maybe someone else who knows what I am saying can say it better than I can attempt to .... right now. tongue.gif




I need a nap. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Fair enough, Scott.

TBH I hadn't been following the thread and was missing context.

Hey, it's all good. Best that you did say something so the subject could be clarified for everyone else.


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post #2190 of 2273 Old 11-08-2013, 04:12 PM
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That makes perfect sense Scott. Totally depends on the content. cool.gif
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