18" LLTs-- any drivers available with a flatter response than the Q18? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 09-25-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been a long-time “wallflower” in the forums, so I am already very grateful for all the input and advice I have received so far from others’ projects. I finally have my own place with a basement theater-in-progress—a 13’ x 22’ x 8’ closed room. I have an EP4000 on the way and am planning on ordering two drivers and sonotube in October; subs will be placed behind/next to the mains on the front wall behind a screen. L/R/C will be Statements (full size, ported), allegedly capable down to 30 hz—but they are not yet finished so I haven’t had the pleasure!

I have been leaning toward the Ficar Q18 drivers at $330 apiece; but I am also interested in the Mach 5 IXL 18.3s that I keep hearing about…if they come out. Does anybody have an inside scoop on these—specs/potential availability? How do they model in a LLT? I would prefer a configuration which is handy down near 12 hz or so—my thought is that a modest sacrifice in mid bass output (in my small room with twin subs and capable mains) will be negligible. Good choice to tune extra low, or is it best to stick with 11 cubes 15 hz (which I was told is ideal for the Q18)? (I am working on it but do not trust my own modeling skills yet, btw.)

Any other drivers I should be looking at? I know there ARE drivers which higher output and possibly lower distortion, but again—in my particular HT environment, I anticipate keeping these puppies way under their limits anyway (I do not have the peculiar but popular “ear drum death wish”) and thus “distortion-free.”

Driver? Tuning? Enclosure size? Please vote now, and Thanks for your input!
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post #2 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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12hz with an 18" driver is gonna be a mondo sized enclosure. To put in perspective, I used a 24" diameter sono for my 12hz tuned 15's and the enclosures final height was over 6 feet. to get down to 12hz it takes a LOT of space and you might have it, just keep in mind the size constraints of your actual room! haha

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post #3 of 21 Old 09-26-2012, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, for example here we have "Dual Q18's in 700l Sonotubes tuned to 12.8Hz 30" Sonotubes cut to 67" and 8.4" ports cut to 31.25"." ... http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ported-subwoofer-build-projects/10287-q18-dual-sono-build.html ...but that was, maybe the old q18? There are no models on that thread to compare to... I probably COULD manage 26-30" sonotube...
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post #4 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I am having a hard time modeling a flat-ish response curve with the Q18, trying to tune this low. The old Q18 (and old IXL18) had a lower Fs, I believe... (?) Is this higher Fs making it more difficult to optimize an LLT design?
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post #5 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 11:04 AM
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The Mach5 UXL18 models well in a copy of my LLT's.
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My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #6 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, you're right... I did look at the UXL, and was leaning toward that one before deciding I wanted to go with two units straight off. It looks great-- except the price, $400 more for a pair! They do offer better performance, the lowest Fs (at 19.7 Hz) and best looking response curve of what is currently available. I am not too concerned with the additional output in my small room with dual 18's; but the flat response and possibly higher SQ is certainly desirable. Hmm, what to do what to do...
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post #7 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW, I love your build-- I was planning on going with the Sound Splinters when I started planning this build a couple years back... or the Maelstroms. Sad how the times change!!
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post #8 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbachelor View Post

Yes, you're right... I did look at the UXL, and was leaning toward that one before deciding I wanted to go with two units straight off. It looks great-- except the price, $400 more for a pair! They do offer better performance, the lowest Fs (at 19.7 Hz) and best looking response curve of what is currently available. I am not too concerned with the additional output in my small room with dual 18's; but the flat response and possibly higher SQ is certainly desirable. Hmm, what to do what to do...

The UXL18 is a mighty step up from the Q18's and worth the upgrade, imo.

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BTW, I love your build-- I was planning on going with the Sound Splinters when I started planning this build a couple years back... or the Maelstroms. Sad how the times change!!

Most definitely. It's really sad to see such high quality drivers go out of production. Just imagine how awesome we would have it if all these guys were still around. It's a rough tough business.

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post #9 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes it is; not enough addicted (and well-funded) DIYers around... :-( Maybe what we need is more of us building and selling DIY Subwoofers to the rest of the market, to help support these great little companies...

Anyway, what do you think of their IXL line? That model seemed widely used for a couple years, and there has been talk for some time of a new version coming out, upgraded from the old IXL18.2... not sure how it might model though, or if the Fs might be higher than the old, just like the Q18.

Thanks for your input, I will put some thought into the UXL. I certainly want to stave off upgrade-itis, so that's worth something; still, a 60% increase in cost is hard to swallow. (I haven't even started working on a music system for upstairs! Cant' go all-out everywhere...)
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Cant' go all-out everywhere...)

Um YES...you can...wink.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #11 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey, Thanks-- I really appreciate that! I will PM you my address to mail that big check... tongue.gif
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post #12 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by djbachelor View Post

Hey, Thanks-- I really appreciate that! I will PM you my address to mail that big check... tongue.gif

I was just at Fedex shipping some speakers, coulda gotten you one out at that point for sure. On a more serious note, I am very much looking forward to what you end up doing here. I miss my sonotubes and have been thinking about what all I could do to upgrade the drivers in them from the tempest x-2's to use them again with my sealed 18's. Scott how would those mach5 18's model in 25cuft? that is probably a pretty good size to start out with smile.gif

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post #13 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbachelor View Post

I am having a hard time modeling a flat-ish response curve with the Q18, trying to tune this low. The old Q18 (and old IXL18) had a lower Fs, I believe... (?) Is this higher Fs making it more difficult to optimize an LLT design?
Exactly how flat are you trying to make it? You're going to need EQ to make it flat in room anyhow + a HPF so you don't destroy the driver so getting it really flat in the box might not be the best use of your efforts.
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post #14 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Well you are probably right, ultimately, but here are my thoughts:
Currently, I do not have a HPF/EQ unit.
They say an LLT tuned to 15 hz or lower does not require a HPF.
Less EQ is better, so starting out flat-ish is likely preferable.

To illustrate, here is a graph comparing the Q18, UXL-18 and SP418 in similar configurations (courtesy of Mike P over at the Shack):




(edited: let's go with large!)
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Here is my Tempest x-2's in their LLT tuned to 11hz. No EQ, pretty stinking flat:



Keep in mind your response will have room gain to make it nice and flat once you get it indoors smile.gif often times people forget that part

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post #16 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbachelor View Post

Yes it is; not enough addicted (and well-funded) DIYers around... :-( Maybe what we need is more of us building and selling DIY Subwoofers to the rest of the market, to help support these great little companies...
Anyway, what do you think of their IXL line? That model seemed widely used for a couple years, and there has been talk for some time of a new version coming out, upgraded from the old IXL18.2... not sure how it might model though, or if the Fs might be higher than the old, just like the Q18.
Thanks for your input, I will put some thought into the UXL. I certainly want to stave off upgrade-itis, so that's worth something; still, a 60% increase in cost is hard to swallow. (I haven't even started working on a music system for upstairs! Cant' go all-out everywhere...)

Still....put another month on the build log and get that better driver. wink.gif The comparison between the Fi and the M5. Eck. Get the UXL18 if it's still around.

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Um YES...you can...wink.gifbiggrin.gif

Exactly. biggrin.gif

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I was just at Fedex shipping some speakers, coulda gotten you one out at that point for sure. On a more serious note, I am very much looking forward to what you end up doing here. I miss my sonotubes and have been thinking about what all I could do to upgrade the drivers in them from the tempest x-2's to use them again with my sealed 18's. Scott how would those mach5 18's model in 25cuft? that is probably a pretty good size to start out with smile.gif

Pretty good! Model time!

Mach5UXL-18Ricci25cuftLLT1kw11hz.gif

Looks damn good to me. It's still got some Xmax for another dB or so but 1kw was nice and round. No pansey ass 15hz tune here, my friend. tongue.gif
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Here is my Tempest x-2's in their LLT tuned to 11hz. No EQ, pretty stinking flat:

Keep in mind your response will have room gain to make it nice and flat once you get it indoors smile.gif often times people forget that part

Not bad!

Here is a semi-recent measurement of my LLT's. Ignore the room induced null at 50hz. frown.gif

FRscottLLTEQ112smooth.jpg

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #17 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Pretty good! Model time!
Mach5UXL-18Ricci25cuftLLT1kw11hz.gif

With a tuning that low it's nice to see what's happening below 10Hz. I used the Data-Bass measured T/S parameters.

vbresponsemach5uxl18.png
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post #18 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote Looks damn good to me. It's still got some Xmax for another dB or so but 1kw was nice and round. No pansey ass 15hz tune here, my friend. tongue.gif
[/quote]

Haha, love it. I WAS wanting to make it closer to 12 or 13 hz or so, but the big hump that appears at the tuning freq going for the lower extension is throwing me off. What do you do with that, does that just make EQ necessary?

Also, out of curiosity--do you have bass traps, or what have you tried to ward off that scary looking valley-of-the-shadow-of-death 50 hz null?
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post #19 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 06:04 PM
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[quote Looks damn good to me. It's still got some Xmax for another dB or so but 1kw was nice and round. No pansey ass 15hz tune here, my friend. tongue.gif
Haha, love it. I WAS wanting to make it closer to 12 or 13 hz or so, but the big hump that appears at the tuning freq going for the lower extension is throwing me off. What do you do with that, does that just make EQ necessary?
Also, out of curiosity--do you have bass traps, or what have you tried to ward off that scary looking valley-of-the-shadow-of-death 50 hz null?[/quote]

No. No traps or acoustic treatmeant as of yet. I'll have to fix it another way.

But no...don't worry about the hump down low. Seriously, you won't even know that it's there.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #20 of 21 Old 09-28-2012, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

With a tuning that low it's nice to see what's happening below 10Hz. I used the Data-Bass measured T/S parameters.
vbresponsemach5uxl18.png

Nice! I also used the T/S from Data-Bass. That's why it says 'Ricci' in the name. I do that with a few other drivers too.

BTW, PM sent.

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post #21 of 21 Old 10-25-2012, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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After much deliberation... I think that dual UXLs is exactly what I'm going to go for. Might have to do one at a time.

11 hz sounds great; any other input for ideal size and tune? Looks like 30" sonotube will be in order... eek.gif
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