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post #1 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Here we go. I promised a few out there that I would create this thread and build process. I tried to log as much as I could, but in the heat of the build sometimes fairly simple steps can be overlooked. So, if there's anything you'd like me to take a pic of or describe I will do my best.

Simulate the enclosure and driver in WinISD:

I needed to construct an enclosure that fit the space. I did not need this speaker to have much low-end extension as I would be crossing them to subs. So, the F3 point was an important goal for me. Hitting at nearly 80hz was where I needed to be crossing them to dual mfw-15's. Knowing all this let me get the box as small as possible for a 12" with front slot port.

Front baffle:


Ordered a 26" SEOS blank baffle from Erich at DIY Sound Group and with this I knew I had space width wise to create the internals for the slot port while maintaining the exact volume and enclosure depth that was vital to placement in my situation. After marking the baffle for both woofer and port began cutting the hole for the AE TD12M. I went with the Jasper200 jig which works great.

Cutting the port:

This was an experiment really. I thought, well, I'll be making three of these...make a jig! The jig was slightly smaller than the internal port mouth, so when the port was mounted to the inside of the enclosure and attached to the baffle, I routed the opening on the baffle.

Making the double baffle:
Here's the single .75" blank baffle with woofer cutout and port. I ordered the 26" baffle knowing I would cut off ~2" from the bottom.


Using the completed baffle as a router template, glue, screw, and clamp the double baffle together.


Completed double baffle. The woofer and waveguide are on the same plane installed.


Cutting the rest of the box:
Here are the test box pieces I already cut and loosely preassembled to create a duplicate enclosure if this one tests out ok.



Assembling and gluing up the enclosure:
Fun times. Racing around like a madman aligning and squaring the pieces and clamping. You know the drill. lol.



Back inside to install the back:
The ol' JL Audio Pro Wedge to the rescue! Heavy sucker.


Completed box:
And time for a nice Boulevard Co. Sixth Glass. biggrin.gif


Build the crossover:
This was the easy part...when you have Mr. Waslo on the job! Thank you, sir. Without your contributions to this effort, I'd not be at the stage I'm at now. The schematic can be found on DIY Sound Group forums here:
SEOS12 and AE TD12M design

This shall also not go without mentioning pgwalsh for offering his driver for Bill to measure. Thank you!


Crossover Parts List:
C1:DAYTON AUDIO DMPC-18 18UF 250V POLYPROPYLENE CAPACITOR
C2:DAYTON AUDIO DMPC-2.2 2.2UF 250V POLYPROPYLENE CAPACITOR
C3:DAYTON AUDIO DMPC-12 12UF 250V POLYPROPYLENE CAPACITOR
L1:JANTZEN 0.90MH 20 AWG AIR CORE INDUCTOR
L2:JANTZEN 0.10MH 20 AWG AIR CORE INDUCTOR
L3:Meniscus 3.50mH .19 ohm dcr 15GA STEEL LAMINATE
R1:Xicon 3.3 OHM 5W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 5% TOLERANCE
R2:Meniscus 12 Ohm 10W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 10% TOLERANCE
R3:Meniscus 10 Ohm 10W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 10% TOLERANCE
R4:Xicon 2.7 OHM 5W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 5% TOLERANCE
R5:Xicon 3.3 OHM 5W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 5% TOLERANCE
Meniscus Audio - Lynk, Silver/Teflon, 14ga. Black Wire
Meniscus Audio - Lynk, Silver/Teflon, 14ga. Red Wire
2 POLE 25A PANEL MOUNT BARRIER TERMINAL STR

Completed crossovers
Here they are assembled, tested and soldered.


Install crossover
I chose to install the crossover within the compression driver/waveguide chamber for easy access. If/when I need to do any maintenance or component upgrades, it will be very convenient having it here without having to pull the 12" driver each time. I cut a bit of extra speaker cable to set the waveguide on top of the enclosure and to slide the xo outward to unhook it.


Time for some music!:
I'm only playing one right now, the other three will be a work in progress. Crossing over to dual mfw-15's @80hz. It sounds fantastic!


Taking measurements with the OmniMic V2 @ 1m:
Measuring with my new OmniMic V2. As everyone else has said...worth every penny. :)

System Measurement:
OmniMic V2 system measurement @ 1M (SEOS-12/TD12M/DNA-360), Track 12, Right Channel - Short Sine Sweep, No Subs.
OmniMic V2 system measurement @ 1M (SEOS-12/TD12M/DNA-360), Track 12, Right Channel - Short Sine Sweep, No Subs.

Finishing:
Rolled on four coats of Zinsser B-I-N. Sanded after coat 2 with 220.
2 speakers and 2 subs = 1 gal. of Zinnser B-I-N sealer. I rolled the sealer on the inside of the cabs too.

Fast forward!
Sprayed on 2 coats of Rust-Oleum bed liner after several coats of flat black.
Completed left speaker and sub.


No wide angle lens on my DSLR only a 50mm prime, so sneaking in a pic of my new Panasonic P50ST60 as a result. smile.gif It replaced a 200 pound Sony XBR960.
No wide angle lens on my DSLR only a 50mm prime, so sneaking in a pic of my new Panasonic P50ST60 as a result. :) It replaced a 200 pound Sony XBR960.
Completed right speaker and sub.

Parting wide shot (cell phone) with extinct XBR960 the plasma replaced.
Cell phone pic. And the dead XBR960, she served me well...time for the ST60 to move in!
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post #2 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 12:20 PM
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Hi RB,

 

It looks like your waveguide cavity is closed off from the woofer box, is that correct?  Is there an advantage to this?

 

Nicholas


Don't waste time reading signatures.....
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post #3 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Nicholas,

That's correct. The box is comprised of two chambers. Doing so gave me the 1 cubic foot volume I needed for the woofer. The enclosure volume is adjusted to include the driver volume (0.1 cu.ft.) and port volume (~120 cu.in.).

There probably are a few advantages to this. For my build, that section of the box acts a brace and gave me closer control over final volume. It may help in controlling the back wave without additional bracing or xo components in the way? Someone else might speak to that. In my build, the crossover is located in the top section so I don't have to pull the woofer for any such maintenance/HF shaping/adjustability etc. That's pretty helpful!
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post #4 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Build the crossover:
This was the easy part...when you have Mr. Waslo on the job! Thank you, sir. Without your contributions to this effort, I'd not be at the stage I'm at now. The schematic can be found on DIY Sound Group forums here:
SEOS12 and AE TD12M design
This shall also not go without mentioning pgwalsh for offering his driver for Bill to measure. Thank you!

No doubt Mr. Waslo did a great job on the crossovers and got some good sounding speakers out there quickly. Without his help, the SEOS project would have taken quite a bit longer. It's by pure luck that he lives only 30 minutes from my house!


Your build looks really nice. Do you have plans on finishing the boxes? Save those good pictures so we can get them uploaded to the site. I need to figure out how to put up a photo gallery first. biggrin.gif
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post #5 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 04:40 PM
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I bet they sound awesome.

.............I can't help but wonder if the phase plug does not affect the sound at all and is aesthetic only.
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post #6 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

I bet they sound awesome.
.............I can't help but wonder if the phase plug does not affect the sound at all and is aesthetic only.

certainly not aesthetic only, AE uses them for heat dissipation, and benefits in power compression. Some will say it aids in the high frequency response, but I have yet to hear that from John.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #7 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 05:33 PM
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Thanks for the build thread. Are you going to take any measurements to test your work?
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post #8 of 104 Old 10-01-2012, 05:50 PM
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nice work there rb. -3db at 80hz = thx spec. and, it has the headroom/dynamic capability for full reference in just about every home room/theater with a simple 100 watt amp. while erich can't market such a speaker in that way, we have this nice little thing called a first ammendment, so i'll go ahead and call this one SEOS THX. :-)

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the audience is listening. :-)

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post #9 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 06:41 AM
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Great build Robot.

Looking forward to getting my TD12Ms soon.
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post #10 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

certainly not aesthetic only, AE uses them for heat dissipation, and benefits in power compression. Some will say it aids in the high frequency response, but I have yet to hear that from John.

if the Phase Plug affects HF response, it's at frequencies where the td12 is already 30+ db down in level.

And my point was that the heat dissipation is probably of no use in a home speaker that will barely ever go over a watt. I'm sure the phase plug helps in PA use though.

the Biggest pro I see for the phase plug is that there is no resonant dust cap - which therE isn't here in Robot Bunny's build either.
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post #11 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

if the Phase Plug affects HF response, it's at frequencies where the td12 is already 30+ db down in level.
And my point was that the heat dissipation is probably of no use in a home speaker that will barely ever go over a watt. I'm sure the phase plug helps in PA use though.
the Biggest pro I see for the phase plug is that there is no resonant dust cap - which therE isn't here in Robot Bunny's build either.

Very true, I wasnt speaking to RB's build, but just the benefits of phase plugs "in general." Heat can still be an issue in HT use however, where some folks have measured pretty high temps in sealed boxes. Not sure where I saw it, but one of the big dogs mentioned it can still build up after longer listening sessions. Such is the nature of even the most efficient drivers, and with the ae's specifically, the phase plug helps to vent those high temps to the exterior of the box instead of through the pole vent and into the box

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #12 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone. I do intend to measure them one day. I suppose I could go with the emm-6 and REW, but knowing me, I'd want to invest in the OmniMic v2 system. It's just difficult to do when you're looking at purchasing four more drivers plus materials for surrounds (cd's and td10m's). I'll get there eventually. I measured the xo input at 7.6ohms, so I was pleased with that for my first time. biggrin.gif

From what I've read about the phase plug, John has mentioned benefits for both heat dissipation and elimination of dustcap resonances. I can only think that at -30db those frequencies would be audible in a critical monitoring application such as a recording studio or a room specifically tailored to their use. In typical home use, it seems neither would be applicable for the advantages they are built for, if they are built primarily for commercial/PA use that is. In any case, I've never heard midrange this good and they blend so well with the highs, it's a whispery, detailed clarity that has me grabbing every sacd or dvd-a I own. I wish I had the acoustic measurements to 'see' what I'm hearing, drives me nuts to make all these subjective comments without data.

That's awesome LTD02. Love it. I'll never forget the day you posted this very port size (1x12x10) and those numbers were literally sitting in WinISD on my desktop as I read it! So, build with confidence, man. It's works! SEOS-THX, that's marvelous. tongue.gif

I think I'll go ahead and build the other two xo's this weekend, supposed to be cold out. Mmm…hot chocolate and solder smoke. I've got wood cut to build a replica of this speaker, so I just need to replicate those pieces for the center channel and glue them up when it’s warmer out.

As far as the finish goes, I'm still not sure. When I built my subs, I kept them unfinished until I could complete the front three speakers and surrounds, primarily so the finish for all the speakers is done at the same time. I was thinking two tone: satin black baffle and some sort of veneer/black stain and lacquer...but with four little ones 10-3yrs that could be an expensive disaster. As indestructible as Duratex is, I just can't do it after this much research and work…but I’ve got plenty of time to mull it over.
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post #13 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 10:29 AM
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quick question between using the 12m versus the S, or H, or X, all of which look like they have the standard surround and more xmax, where the M has the accordian surround and a little bit more efficiency?

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #14 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, more efficiency, Fs and Qts differ between each model as well. The M is perfectly suited for midrange frequencies whereas the H, for instance, would go a bit lower and most likely require a larger enclosure. I haven't simulated it though.
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post #15 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 11:03 AM
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Good to know. I find it interesting that Wayne uses the "S" for his builds with the higher xmax and is still able to accomplish a killer response. Look like I need to start a new thread on all of this. Im really getting build-itis right now. It is killing me.

btw, RB you made the XO look easy. kudos there. I think even I could get that together just from your pic and the correct parts list. Laying the XO components out first is definitely the way to go so you dont have wires running all over the place.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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post #16 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks beast. The schematic is super easy to follow. One input, two outputs, six connections to common. Just pay close attention to all connection points and you'll be fine and dandy. Also, don't solder first, connect the drivers and measure the input with your multimeter.
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post #17 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 11:19 AM
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A crossover was done for the TD12X,, too, the same day as the one for TD12M. It's over at diysoundgroup forum. Other than a few dB sensitivity, the response after crossover was pretty much the same as for the M... Crossover point ended up a little lower to get the blend, though.
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post #18 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Thanks beast. The schematic is super easy to follow. One input, two outputs, six connections to common. Just pay close attention to all connection points and you'll be fine and dandy. Also, don't solder first, connect the drivers and measure the input with your multimeter.

I dont solder, and using the multimeter I have no idea on either. I know how to use it to test voltage across light fixtures and outlets, but not impedance. But I can figure that out when it comes time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

A crossover was done for the TD12X,, too, the same day as the one for TD12M. It's over at diysoundgroup forum. Other than a few dB sensitivity, the response after crossover was pretty much the same as for the M... Crossover point ended up a little lower to get the blend, though.

Not a problem, gonna check it out. Thanks Bill... More and more I am realizing, more and more I really need to step my game up and learn XO stuff

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post #19 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 01:40 PM
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Robot,

Got a few questions for you.

1) Any issues crossing ported speaker to sealed subs?

2) What multimeter did you use, and what exactly did you measure on the x-over?

3) Exactly what type of wires did you use for the x-over? Last time I did a set of x-overs, I used some 16g speaker wire.

Thanks
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post #20 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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smokarz,

As I understand phase between sub and ported main (the two playing the same frequency at the same time), my port frequency (50hz) is within the range that the speaker rolls off to the sealed subs, in this case 80hz. So I should be ok. Not sure how to correct for it though if it were an audible issue, but I'd be interested to know.

I've got an el' cheapo from PE, here:3-1/2 Digit 19 Range Digital Multimeter with Transistor Test. They are 8ohm drivers and I measured 7.6ohms at the xo input. A couple of times they measured 7.8ohms.

The ground and hot wires I got from Meniscus Audio, they sell by the foot. Here:Lynk 14ga Silver Hook Up, Red and Lynk Wire,14ga Silver Hook Up, Black. They're nice and pliable so they can be flexed into whatever shape you need to get around components if needed.
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post #21 of 104 Old 10-02-2012, 03:20 PM
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If you crossover the mains well above their port frequency, there shouldn't be a problem. But if you run them as "Large", a.k.a. not high passed, then there might be a cancellation issue, or might not.

A multimeter won't really tell you a lot about the crossover or if it's connected right. For instance, if you disconnect the tweeter (or anything after the first series capacitor) that won't make any difference at all to what the meter measures at the input terminals. A multimeter only measures DC resistance, to really check impedance you'd need something that measures AC characteristics over the range of audio frequencies like a Woofer Tester (or WT2, or WT3, or DATS, or a working Speaker Workshop setup). Easier and cheaper to just check each connection/wire and mark them off on the schematic as you verify they go to the right place.

And I really wouldn't worry much about what wire you use inside the box, it is so short it would be difficult for it to matter unless you went with ultra fine gauge. (Though it would be easy to get into an argument about that on most audio forums, so I'll stop at that comment smile.gif )
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post #22 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 06:34 AM
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bwaslo - question...is the crossover you designed going to work on pretty much any box design (i.e. larger volume, ported, non ported) or will the crossover need to be modified with a change in the box design?
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post #23 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 07:55 AM
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No, the effect of the box volume will be way below where the crossover has effect. But the baffle width can get into things. Keep it around 16" wide with the waveguide close to the top edge and you should be ok.

But if you run without sub and the box not able to go below 60hz or so, it might sound bright. Extended highs need extended lows to sound balanced, at least to me.
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post #24 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 10:00 AM
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If it helps, most of the boxes used a baffle that was 14.5" wide. I think Bwaslo's test box was 15" wide.
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post #25 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 11:05 AM
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ok, I was estimating.... don't have the box here. What Erich said.
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post #26 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Talking BSC here for a moment...let's say hypothetically, you have a baffle that's 11.25" (which you wouldn't since this is a for a 12" driver) which is the wavelength @ 1200hz. There would be a 6db rise in response, so you'd need to pad @ 1200hz. If that's the xo frequency (for this xo it is), is there an example of what that might look like on a graph with and without attenuation?

Being as how my baffle is 14.5", theoretically, I should see a 6db rise at ~950hz. Since this is below xo frequency, should this be padded and what effect is there when step compensation begins at or below xo frequency? What's the terminology for this? Thanks.
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post #27 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 02:50 PM
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how far is the speaker from the back wall? Is the baffle near other surfaces? I dont do bsc per se because it isnt well defined (6db is maximum not universal) and also doesnt work for power response (cant ignore echoes down that low). So its more like a room eq thing than a speaker thing. Just my opinion of course!
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post #28 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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The speaker is about 8-12" from the wall and toe'd in and is about 3" from the wall of the entertainment center. I've got it sitting directly on top of my sub at the moment. None of the current placement is ideal, but until I can rid of this huge entertainment center 10'x8', it's what I'm doing for now.
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post #29 of 104 Old 10-03-2012, 05:56 PM
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my speakers placement is much worse. they're about 2-3" from both side and back walls.
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post #30 of 104 Old 10-08-2012, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Edited original post to show completed crossovers and added a pic of the crossover installed.

Also, I was giong to use ring terminals for the input and output connections on the xo, but I'm not sure what size will fit the barrier terminal. PE has #8 (16-14) and #6 (16-14).
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